ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

i'll make a gentleman's bet that 2 east 1 south of the start has a strategic resource. someone send me a spoiler to settle this.
2E1S is a forest.

It's readily visible in the screenshots Sis has posted.

It could still be a resource, just not a strategic one.

2E of the start (3E of the current position) is one of the four non-forested tiles in the starting BFC. Two tiles are taken by the corn and pig, respectively, and a third is where the settler started.

I think there's guaranteed to be a strategic resource 2E of the initial starting position. With the new BTS algorithm, I'm guessing it's either iron or horses.

I can't say which I would want more. Either one would be a better tile to work than the stone, and in general I think the initial starting position was stronger than any potential stone site. That stone is 1F/4H. Riverside horses would be 1F/4H/2C, and riverside iron would be 1F/5H/1C.
 
I vote settle in place, grab the goody hut with it, and save the corn-dye site for the next possible city, depending on what else scouting reveals. By placing the second city there, it will automatically be on the trade route without needing roads.
 
I would have still settled 1W of the Pigs for a high hammer, ample food/commerce capital, as I voted for around page 1. 2nd city 1NE of the corn, and 3rd city following the river north, possibly coastal given the way that river widens in the green grasses of the north. If there's coast 1 north of the fog then the case for settling 1N could possibly crampen out a good coastal site. I would'nt risk it even though I could be totally wrong, but there's enough room for 3 very good cities along that river. Just my 2c worth of useless information.
 
@nares.

i guess you won the gentlmen. you're right. 2 east, though, i want either a spoiler tag to let me know if something is there, or for sisi to make his move already. i would agree that there is something hidden there.

@slaze.

true, a religious holy city gets +5 culture. i can't remember if you need to have a state religion, but i don't think so. is it then +1 culture for every relgion in that city, so +6 culture in the holy city with that one religion. then +2 for the palace for a total of 8 culture/turn, that would bring the second border pop in less than 19 turns, plenty of time to research masonry and road to the stone. however, masonry would have to be differed in order to grab a religious tech. by not settling on the first turn, however, it changes the chances of getting one of the first two from a slight gamble to a huge gamble. to get to monotheism i think is way off the tech path we should be on.

i think if we get enough great prophets or scientists, bulbing techs would score one of the later religions. the later religions have some drawbacks, but you do get a free missionary.
 
Round 2: 3975 BC to 3200 BC (30 turns)

All right, time to get on with things.

I really liked 1N and so I moved the Settler there and settled.

ALC22_3200BC_01.jpg


I recently played an offline game where both my own capital and a captured capital only had one food source, and it made both cities sub-optimal. Hammers might win the game in the long run, but without food, ya got nothin'. But, keeping my thirst for hammers in mind as well, I wanted the stone. In addition, this city has 9 riverside grassland tiles. I anticipate cottaging all of them. Yes, I'll be running a specialist economy, but every time I play a SE I cottage the capital to leverage bureaucracy. And all those forests for chopping! All told, I think this will be an awesome capital for Saladin, well worth the sacrifice of a couple of moves. If a strategic resource shows up near where we started... well, that's why you build Settlers and found additional cities, innit? ;)

First build: a Warrior, to allow the city to grow to size 2.

ALC22_3200BC_02.jpg


Hmmm, all the special resources wound up outside the inner ring. No biggie, that would be fixed in a few turns.

My Warrior headed east onto that forested hill to enjoy the view. He spotted a tribal village further east, and it popped for...

ALC22_3200BC_03.jpg


A Scout! Very nice--he would help tremendously with the early exploration. I decided to send the Warrior north while the Scout curved around south. I was thinking that it would be good to get him near the hut by the capital ASAP, just in case it needed to be popped before the capitals borders did.

My fear there was somewhat justified, as the neighbours began to show up awfully quickly. It seems I live in a rather crowded neighbourhood!

ALC22_3200BC_04.jpg


I haven't encountered this leader introduced in BtS very often. I know he has a formidable Musketman-based UU; he's also Creative, so I'm hoping he's not too close by--we saw what a pain it can be to have a Creative neighbour in the previous attempt at a Saladin game. Any tips?

Along with the newbie, another neighbour is a golden oldie who's been with us from the start of Civ IV:

ALC22_3200BC_05.jpg


Hmm, Industrious. Seems my nemesis Louis' traits have been distributed across 2 nearby leaders in this game. Will that be better, or worse? Only time will tell. Both he and Zara are Organized, too, so they'll have an economic advantage over me, especially during the early and mid-game.

Roosevelt is usually pretty easy to get along with, in my experience, mainly because he isn't a religious fanatic. Unfortunately, as you'll see, he is my nearest neighbour--extremely near, in fact--and may, therefore, have to die.

The capital's borders popped the hut for some gold, and my Scout survived his first encounter with outer Arabia's fauna:

ALC22_3200BC_06.jpg


And in the meantime, my third (and thus far, final) neighbour showed up.

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Suryavarman is another BtS leader and one I've only encountered a few times before. IIRC, he's always been on another land mass in my other games where he's been around (such as the Ragnar ALC game). He's not a religious fanatic, but nonetheless seems difficult to please. He doesn't strike me as terrifically dangerous in the early game, and he's a bit of a pushover later on (he's not a tech monster, from what I've seen). But this close by, for me at least, he's a bit of an enigma.

A couple of religions have been founded, but none, it seems, by my neighbours.

ALC22_3200BC_08.jpg


I finished researching my first technology.

ALC22_3200BC_09.jpg


The Warrior was completed in the capital in the exact same turn the city grew to size 2. I sent the new Warrior SE, since both the Scout and original Warrior were heading north. Around this same time, the first random event occurred!

ALC22_3200BC_10.jpg


Oooh, I like this one, especially this early, when its negative impacts will be negligible. The first option would have given me +1 :) for 10 turns ("So friggin' what" was my response at this stage in the game). Behind door #2 was 1 :mad:, a 20% chance for -1 pop, and a 35% chance for 1 :health:. Obviously, this early, option #3 was the most attractive. And it looked like it worked out!

ALC22_3200BC_11.jpg


As you can see, I was building a Worker in the capital, so I wasn't too concerned about having some unhappy citizens since the city's growth was frozen. The extra health means those forests are for choppin', methinks, since I don't need them to keep Mr. Yuck away. I think the Pyramids are an even more definite possibility. (I think we've all agreed to give Stonehenge a miss, but I'm leaving the door open for the Great Wall. Convince me.)

I was following Slobberinbear's tech path, so Mining was next, to prepare the way for Bronze Working, and to reduce the price of Masonry.

ALC22_3200BC_12.jpg


And I ended the round here on a significant decision point.

ALC22_3200BC_13.jpg


Oooo, so very very tempting. It's always nice to be able to snag a Worker from a rival, especially one so close by. Since the Worker is on a forested tile, I think my Warrior will be safe from reprisal.

However, there's the long-term implications to consider. Of my three neighbours, as I said, Roosevelt is the easiest to befriend, and this early declaration of war would sour our relationship. Of course, he is close by, so he may have to die anyway.

But I think a look at the map will help with this decision:

ALC22_3200BC_14.jpg


By the looks of it, there's a lot of good land on this map, and I also get the impression that most of it is available for REXing. You can see that Washington is not far away to the north, however, I haven't encountered Ethiopian nor Khmer territory yet. I get the impression they're off to the north as well, which would leave me with a lot of good land in the south to settle. Which would make an early war with American unnecessary, despite their proximity. Many of you suggested that Saladin is best suited to a peaceful waiting game, and that may be the best approach here.

But hey--free Worker! Decisions, decisions...

Other thoughts on the map: there's some early happy available, what with the jumbos to the west, gold to the south, and gems both east and west. Lots of calendar resources too--silk (though America has those), dye, bananas, and spices. All three grains are available as well, and look at all those rivers! Quite a contrast to the tougher terrain in the previous game.

On another note, one of my Warriors is far to the southeast and is next to a goody hut... and a lion. If he survives the encounter with the latter, we'll see what the former yields at the beginning of the next round.

On other notes, I'm researching Masonry, and it's 5 turns from completion, so I could begin construction of the Great Wall or the Pyramids soon, though I'd prefer to at least build on Settler first. Slobberinbear's tech path then calls for Bronze Working, which I agree would be a good idea so I can start chopping and whipping, and see if there's copper around for the 1st Settler to claim. After that, the bear suggested either Hunting and Archery if I don't go for the Great Wall, or AH - Pottery - Writing if I do. Thoughts?

As for builds, my Worker will be complete in two turns, and I was thinking of building a couple of Warriors while the city grows to size 3, then a Settler. After that, I'll consider commencing a wonder. I think it would have to be the Great Wall this early; the AI is fond of it. If we decide to forgo the barb barrier, then I think I can afford to build another Settler before starting on the Pyramids.

Diplomatically, both early religions appear to have been founded on other continents. That could bode well for using the Madrassa to generate a Great Prophet to lightbulb a religion-granting tech such as Monotheism or Theology, then spreading it to make my own continent into a happy love-fest. That may also argue against stealing FDR's Worker.

At any rate, here is the save, and I look forward to hearing your opinions!
 

Attachments

Snag him. By time FDR can do anything about it, he'll probably have other worries than a missing worker.
 
Waaay too tempting to pass up, IMHO. Roosevelt will be a target sooner or later, with Washington so very close, and the allure of two capitols early in the game is irresistable (to those of us who are possibly overly blood-thirsty).
 
You shouldn't build the great wall because you have barb-absorbing neighbors, the protective trait, and many good city sites to race to.
 
Just to play Devil's Advocate -- if your hunch is correct and Sury and Zara are in the north with Roosevelt, wouldn't leaving all three alive be the better choice so that Roosevelt ends up being a buffer? In that case, crippling Roosevelt early might cause either Zara or Sury to gain an upper hand and present you with a much tougher opponent than three Civs squabbling for the same land.
 
Suryavarman is another BtS leader and one I've only encountered a few times before. IIRC, he's always been on another land mass in my other games where he's been around (such as the Ragnar ALC game). He's not a religious fanatic, but nonetheless seems difficult to please. He doesn't strike me as terrifically dangerous in the early game, and he's a bit of a pushover later on (he's not a tech monster, from what I've seen). But this close by, for me at least, he's a bit of an enigma.

Sorry, but you got Suryavarman all wrong. He is a religious fanatic. And he's very aggressive, and can dow you with a huge stack in the BCs. He's low peaceweight warmonger without warmonger traits. He's a backstabber who will attack at pleased. He's also impossible to keep happy. Every request you deny him will drop your relations down -2 instead of the standard -1, so you'll never stay friendly with him unless you become his b*tch, and if he gets in a war with someone you'll drop from pleased to cautious unless you join in. Then once he makes peace he'll come after you. He's pretty much one of my most hated AIs. At the moment he's the biggest potential threat in the early game, and having Roosevelt as a border between you and him is worth keeping roosevelt alive. Even with the same religion i can see roosevelt and him going at it all game with their big difference in peaceweights.


Zara Yaqob is relatively easy to get along with. Though I never trust him. He's one of the best balanced AIs. Good techer, good at war. Not super aggressive, but i've seen him backstab other AIs and he can get pretty big. Being creative he's going to culturally pressure you if you share borders and for that reason alone he could to be an eventual military target.
 
Riverside corn and you decide to grow to size 2 first? Corn is 8 turns, quarry is 9 turns, there's rivers and tons of forests to chop. Worker turns are going to be important to grab as much land as possible and you already have a scout.

City sites are 5S 4W, 5 SE, hard to say much more right now.
 
You shouldn't build the great wall because you have barb-absorbing neighbors, the protective trait, and many good city sites to race to.
Not so fast on the barb-absorbing neighbours; They all seem to be north of me, and there's a whole lotta barb-spawning empty territory to the south. The Great Wall may be very beneficial, as the barbs will spawn in the south and bypass my territory on the way to Roosevelt, Sury, and Zara. Bwa-ha-ha.
Just to play Devil's Advocate -- if your hunch is correct and Sury and Zara are in the north with Roosevelt, wouldn't leaving all three alive be the better choice so that Roosevelt ends up being a buffer? In that case, crippling Roosevelt early might cause either Zara or Sury to gain an upper hand and present you with a much tougher opponent than three Civs squabbling for the same land.
A good point, and thus my dilemma. Given BalbanesBeoulve's insight on Sury (thanks for that, obviously the fact I've never started on the same continent with him before explains my ignorance), it might be wise to keep Roosevelt as a friendly buffer.
 
6 happy resources in sight ^^

including gold, gems and ivory that you can have early !

well, the game is win, kill washington early (settle a little produciton city using the pigs west and the corn from capital fat cross to grow), build the mids, grab all these resources. with representation that +9 happy in all cities + culture slider.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with BalbanesBeoulve's description of Suryavarman and the suggestion to keep Roosevelt alive as a buffer. So I'd leave his worker alone, even if your plan is to kiss and make up soon after taking it, declaring on him now will keep him from expanding for a while.

I'm torn between building the Great Wall and rexing then, and just rexing with protective archers, both seem pretty even in terms of research times and build times ... With land this great, I'd probably prefer to get the first settlers out as soon as possible, under the watchful eyes of the scouting warriors. So I'd start chopping them instead of roading to the stone and building a quarry. The remaining forests would support the later construction of the pyramids. Getting cities with gold and flood plains / food resources running early can give you a tremendous economic boost. GW would be fine too though.
 
You can build have a dozen archers for the same cost as Great Wall (without stone hooked up). It depends on how badly you want to generate a Great Spy.
 
I think you've got both potential for REXing, which would be made much easier without having to guard all those cities you'll build, and potential for GSpy use. Three neighbors means you'll not run out of things to spy on. You might even want to do an infiltration mission on Zara or Sury and distribute the "per turn" espionage points to the other two. As for the REXing, I suggest settling towards Roosevelt and blocking most of the land in the South. If you can get both the gems and the elephants you'll be able to afford spamming cities, and considering that some of the later ones will have gold, you don't have to worry about costs too much.

About the tech path: I'd go for BW, Hunting, AH (no archery since I'd build the GW), Pottery, then go for Alphabet to make use of the spies. You have several interesting options later, Construction, Calendar, going for the Code of Laws, etc, but we'll have to wait to get there first. Also remember that you need Horseback Riding for War Elephants, so stealing techs seems really appealing. :)

Also, I wouldn't take the worker. Since I propose REXing toward Roosevelt, I don't think you'll want the additional task of protecting your cities from him. You'll have enough penalties/not enough bonuses since I recommend not opening borders with him, and you'll likely going to have "close borders" really fast. Give it a pass this time.
 
Sorry, but you got Suryavarman all wrong. He is a religious fanatic. And he's very aggressive, and can dow you with a huge stack in the BCs. He's low peaceweight warmonger without warmonger traits. He's a backstabber who will attack at pleased. He's also impossible to keep happy. Every request you deny him will drop your relations down -2 instead of the standard -1, so you'll never stay friendly with him unless you become his b*tch, and if he gets in a war with someone you'll drop from pleased to cautious unless you join in. Then once he makes peace he'll come after you. He's pretty much one of my most hated AIs. At the moment he's the biggest potential threat in the early game, and having Roosevelt as a border between you and him is worth keeping roosevelt alive.

No wonder, if I'd be a leader of a nation with "crappiest UU", and called a hideous, ugly monster all the time by 90% of players I'd become a bloodthirsty and impossible to please tyrant too :lol:
 
Since diplomacy has never been a strong point in my games, I wouldn't hesitate in capturing a worker (though I've learned the hard way when capturing workers from Shaka or Monty! - they never offer peace until "every last city of yours is destroyed" - they never do, but they keep saying that until 1000+ years have gone by before they forgive you and accept a peace offer!)
 
I haven't encountered this leader introduced in BtS very often. I know he has a formidable Musketman-based UU; he's also Creative, so I'm hoping he's not too close by--we saw what a pain it can be to have a Creative neighbour in the previous attempt at a Saladin game. Any tips?

Zara is usually a big threat in my games. He's shown good potential to build enormous empires -- maybe his traits (creative for cheap libraries, organized for cheap courthouses) weight his AI in favor of building useful things more often than other AIs, and lead to him keeping things together long enough to integrate holdings into a functional economy?

His UU is extremely dangerous... in the hands of a human. He's actually never declared on me while it was in vogue, so I can't really comment on how well the AI might or might not use two free promotions.
 
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