ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

[Nares]

Let's not underestimate the value of settling an early Great Prophet.

It just doesn't seem very valuable in that it really won't help you towards Literacy or Liberalism.

That branch has a multitude of advantages, not the least of which is that it's pursued less vigorously on average than the AI. That it focuses almost purely on research, and that good diplomacy can help avoid most need for a military, only serves to solidify it as the single best tech path.

 

[JacktheBodiless]

You answered your own question. City placement is usually determined in the early game by the resources you can grab. The first build many recommend in a city is the monument so you can get the border pop to grab all resources in the BFC, thus aiding your economic growth. The Madrassa is a nice culture boost, but sometimes waiting to build a Library is too slow for a necessary border expansion.



You make it sound like there's a choice between the two. Any troops that need experience can still go take out the Barbarians hanging around your borders. So the question is: if you can reasonably gain the Great Wall, would you rather have immunity to Barbarian pillaging, bonus points toward a Great Spy, doubled Great General production in your cultural borders, and experienced troops from Barbarians you have picked off at your leisure, or just the experienced troops.



I maintain that if you ever reach the point where you can only think of one way to play, you need to drop back down a difficulty level.

I appreciate your feedback. Obviously, if you can have SH, GW, and a big army, and 4-6 decently improved, well-defended cities, and the Mids, you would take it... but then if you can have all that, perhaps you should be moving up a difficulty level, right?

I would argue that with this particular leader/civ, even more than usual, the Pyramids are a top priority. I just don't see how it would be possible to do everything mentioned above on this difficulty level and still get the Pyramids. Over the course of a game, the possibility to leverage the absence of anarchy by switching back and forth amongst the various government civics at will to me seems like a better deal than the (admittedly juicy) benefits of the GW. Sure, I want both, but if I can only have one (and I think we only can if we want to reach our goal of a solid, well-defended empire) I want the Pyramids, especially with Saladin. But you're right in pointing out that the presence of a GW does not preclude whooping barbs per XP, it just moves it outside your borders. I would not say the GW is bad (and we aren't even touching on the Great Spy possibility), I am just saying it is a luxury I doubt we can afford in this game. By all means, prove me wrong. I am still learning.

As far as Monuments go, I think what you get for your hammers just isn't a great deal... better to have a slightly suboptimal city placement (to get your resources in the first ring) and build two warriors or half a barracks than to spend 30 hammers to get 1 cpt. Culture is not the only way to enforce borders... clubs work, too. Also, although I didn't mention it because Sis already said NO to early religion this time around, for Spiritual leader a Temple is a way better deal than a Monument. Anyway, that discussion is moot for now...

Of course, my main weakness as a player that I have been able to identify recently has been my reluctance to build for the short term... I hate to "waste" hammers, even though I know that if it accomplishes a reasonable goal, it's not really a waste. So maybe I will say that Monuments (like everything else) are situational, and leave it at that. If the 'Henge falls into our lap, fine, but otherwise I would focus production elsewhere and accept early lag in cultural growth.

Btw, B Took, I have learned a lot from reading your posts in these threads. It's nice chatting with you!

 

[madscientist]

For the record

1) I think the Great Wall would overcome some of the teching issues as you can delay the military techs if it's built early (right now you need 2 techs for any militayr unit other than warriors).

2) I am all for getting lot's of Great Prophets using Sal's UB. My point regarding the GSpy is that you will likely get one based on the GW wonder.

 

[Nares]

2) I am all for getting lot's of Great Prophets using Sal's UB. My point regarding the GSpy is that you will likely get one based on the GW wonder.

You could always tech CoL, swap to CS, and run an artist for one turn, because >2% chance for artist is basically 100% chance.

 

[carl corey]

commenting madscientist's points:

1)You'll need Agri, AH, Mining & BW anyway, but I agree that you can skip Hunting & Archery this way and still be able to expand if the first try for a military resource doesn't succeed. So early GW would be an interesting choice. Maybe even together with getting a worker first and Masonry as first tech to connect the stone, but you'd have to be sure to have something for the worker to do after that. Hmm... Masonry -> Agri -> AH -> Mining -> BW, and warrior -> worker -> settler -> GW. The worker builds a quarry, roads it, corn, then pigs. And then the worker will move to the second city if BW isn't done.

2) GProphets are ok, but as has been said, you'll still want those GSs for the Liberalism race. Oh, and if you build the Pyramids you'll have quite a poluted GP pool... Of course getting a GE from it isn't bad, you'll just build the Great Library in another city and couple it with two scientists from a Madrassa.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Not quite sure if it has been said before, but if you plan to leverage protective by waging defensive wars (ie convincing the AI to suicide on your protective archers/longbows/...), the GW can really boost the GG harvest. In that sense, the GW synergizes with saladin's traits.

With stone and a bunch of forests, you can get a number of stone wonders out very quickly, and SH, GW, and pyramids all give immediate boosts to expansion or research. Looking at synergy, I guess SH is the least synergetic, as you will choose to skip monuments in some cities (if the initial radius is juicy and production decent) and you can get plenty of GPs from the madrassas...

(not saying you should, but Obsolete's games show that wonderspamming is possible on high levels...)

 

[Nares]

but you'd have to be sure to have something for the worker to do after that.

One of the few advantages of starting with The Wheel (ok, maybe the only advantage) is that your early workers always have something to do.

An unemployed worker can always be sent to build roads through forests you plan to chop in the future, or to tiles/resources you plan to improve.

That said, I think Agri->Mining->(Masonry)->BW->AH is best. Use the one high value tile (the farmed Corn) to build a second worker and/or a settler. You can sit at pop1 or pop2 for awhile, with pop2 working the stone.

I still vote for returning to the starting position.

(not saying you should, but Obsolete's games show that wonderspamming is possible on high levels...)

They also rely heavily, by necessity, on easily available stone/marble and/or the Industrious trait, combined with specific starting locations requirements (good food, good production, many many forests).

 

[vanatteveldt]

there is stone

And lots of grassland riverside forests, that we want to chop pretty quickly anyway

 

[Bandobras Took]

I appreciate your feedback. Obviously, if you can have SH, GW, and a big army, and 4-6 decently improved, well-defended cities, and the Mids, you would take it... but then if you can have all that, perhaps you should be moving up a difficulty level, right?

I agree. My point was that you don't have to sacrifice a well-experienced army by building the Great Wall.

I would argue that with this particular leader/civ, even more than usual, the Pyramids are a top priority.

Again, I want to see the map before I say "top." Admittedly, your specialists get a boost from Representation and the happiness goes far, but high-commerce tiles rather than high-food tiles in the surrounding area might make a difference.

Btw, B Took, I have learned a lot from reading your posts in these threads. It's nice chatting with you!

Shucks, I'm flattered.

One of the few advantages of starting with The Wheel (ok, maybe the only advantage) is that your early workers always have something to do.

The other is being able to rapidly hook up resources if you happen to start with an appropriate tech as the other one. Maybe not Saladin's advantage, per se, but an advantage of starting with the Wheel.

They also rely heavily, by necessity, on easily available stone/marble and/or the Industrious trait, combined with specific starting locations requirements (good food, good production, many many forests).

Not noticeably accurate. He did one without the Industrious trait or Stone just to prove the point. And if you're going to say it relies on chopping, and good food, why are you advocating Bronze Working yourself? What obsolete's games rely on, it seems to me, is a nearly encyclopedic knowledge of AI diplomacy.

 

[Gliese 581]

A Plains Stone gives you 1F4H, which is only 1H more than a mined Grassland Hill, or 1F more than a mined Plains Hill.

The western side offers the Plains Stone, a Plains Hill, and one unknown tile. The eastern side offers a Grassland Hill and two unknown tiles.

Although the western side is likely to be better, the margin in total yield is not that great, and it will cost us a turn to move 1N, so that we can get the Corn.

As for the two unknown tiles on the eastern side, chances are the yield will be better than a Plains Hill (plus the one unknown tile on the western side). I'd be willing to take that chance, especially with a one-turn head start.

With the Plains Stone only 1H better than the Grassland Hill on the east, my bet goes with the extra turn and moving back to the Settler's original spot.

Yes. The argument boils down to, do Sisiutil want TGW? If yes, 1 north is obviously the better spot. I settled in place in my shadow game after being unable to obtain more information. My reasoning was it is uncommon to not get more than 1 resource in the bfc so I have a good chance at another and I don't care for the early wonders, second culture expansion is enough for Pyramids.
But since Sisiutil already moved.. he can consider TGW.

I think settling a Gspy if one is indeed born in this game is a good move since we're going to have The Pyramids and thus it's 6beakers without multipliers aside from the eps.

If we go for both SH and TGW, make TGW the first one, they go at roughly the same time, sometimes TGW goes first so there's no point in going for the weaker wonder first.

 

[slobberinbear]

I hereby abandon my urging for Stonehenge in favor of the Great Wall or (gasp) nothing at all until the Pyramids, say in the first millenia BC.

My reason is (aside from all of your thoughtful, articulate posts) that I forgot the Madrassa gives +2 culture per turn, in addition to its allowance of priest specialists and the usual library benefits. In my games, when I see stone, I start salivating over all the stone wonders.

What you have then, is a Unique Building that is essentially an ordinary Library plus a double-culture Egyptian Obelisk. Get enough food in your Madrassa cities, and you can run a perfectly respectable SE way before Code of Laws / Caste System. The specialists enabled by the Madrassa will yield more GPPs than Stonehenge, anyway. If Saladin can get Writing soon enough and get his cities big enough to whip out Madrassas, he is way better off than building Stonehenge or Monuments.

To me, the Great Wall is situational. If you are hemmed in, its early game appeal is lessened. However, if you have a large frontier area that you just can't REX into or post enough fogbusters to handle, it's great. While I like the great spy, that is an insufficent reason by itself to build the thing. But after about a thousand years, Sisiutil will know if he needs it or not, and thankfully he'll be able to whip/chop/stone it out quick. Yes, the GW saves us a few tech choices early, but even with stone hooked up, it's about equal to 1.5 settlers, give or take.

I stand by my tech order, though: agriculture -- mining -- masonry -- bronze working -- hunting (if no GW) -- archery (if no GW) -- animal husbandry -- pottery -- writing. I suppose pottery could wait until after writing (especially if we are using Madrassas early for culture), but we'll want granaries for all of that lovely whipping, won't we?

 

[Nares]

The other is being able to rapidly hook up resources if you happen to start with an appropriate tech as the other one.

Indeed.

I don't know how useful that would be in this particular situation.

I feel free to give the spoiler now, given that it's no longer a possibility for Sis' game. Settling in place on turn 0 and moving the warrior to the hut provided free Fishing, negating the need to hook up the pigs, corn, or the third resource 2W that has yet to be uncovered.

My reasoning was it is uncommon to not get more than 1 resource in the bfc so I have a good chance at another and I don't care for the early wonders, second culture expansion is enough for Pyramids.

We can even compose a list of which resources might be on the riverside plains tile. I think there's a strong chance that it's iron or horses, given the new BTS algorithm to reduce/eliminate copper in the BFC. I world-builder tested some possible non-strategic resources under the fog (the tile is partially revealed), but none were at all visible without fully exploring the tile.

The Pyramids can definatly wait for the second border expansion. Early Writing for an early Madrassa in the capital can help expedite this. We'll want early Writing for an early Madrassa anyway; this start is food rich and relatively production poor, so I think we'll be running specialists very early. Additionally, delaying the Pyramids for the second border pop leaves (some) time to research either Mathematics or Monotheism (and hopefully land a religion), to help further boost the chops.

Monotheism would allow for bulbing Theology should a Great Prophet pop (we can run three specialists here at pop8, which we can easily reach through religion and Representation, while still maintaining significant production). Whether Sis wants to bulb Theology, settle the Great Prophet, or build a shrine is his choice. Bulbing almost seems to be the weakest, but Theology could make for some good trading.

If Sis would care to confirm that the third resource is indeed a strategic resource, he can move the settler 1N (to the proposed stone site) on this turn, then move the warrior 1SE on the next turn. This will reveal the third resource's tile, and still leaves Sis the freedom to move the settler back to the starting position to settle there, a move I would definatly make should that third resource be strategic.

I just ran some numbers real quick, and came to the conclusion that settling in the starting position is the best option. If that is indeed a strategic resource, then there is a huge long-term advantage for returning to the starting position and settling there.

Working five tiles, he's looking at either +6F/13H/6C or +6F/12H/7C by returning to the starting position, depending on what strategic resource that is (first numbers are copper and iron, second is horses). It has 17 riverside tiles, three hills, and 17 forests in the BFC.

Working the same number of tiles at the stone site produces +6F/12H/3C. It has 14 riverside tiles, two hills, and 12 forests in the BFC. It does, however, trade a number of plains tiles for grasslands, a trade I'm not necessarily a fan of.

Looking at settling in the starting site, there are six riverside grassland tiles that can and should be chopped for the Pyramids. Additionally, there are three hills to chop early on for expansion (or the Great Wall, I guess). This leaves quite a few plains forests to preserve for the health bonus, lumbermills, and eventually forest preserves.

One of obsolete's methods of pursuing his wonderspam is to settle in place (probably so as to avoid 100% wasted turns), scout for the stone or marble, and settle his second city on top of it, perhaps pre-chopping the forests while waiting to connect this new city.

Picking up the Great Wall is a nice idea for a Protective-based provocative war strategy. However, I don't see that as being a strategy that will carry you forward into Immortal. It's more of a role-playing strategy that works on low/mid level difficulty settings. While that's all well and good for MadScientist and his games, I don't see that being the focus of the ALCs. From what I remember of their start, ALCs are about progressing through difficulty settings, and the techniques for doing so, not exploring interesting (if detrimental) variants.

Those are just my 2. Sis will do what he feels is right, and rightly so. As I said, he can reveal what the third resource is without deviating from settling the stone site. Settler 1N on this turn, then warrior 1SE on the next turn. If there's "nothing" there, I would definatly return to the starting position to settle "in place," but he can also settle the stone at this point.

 

[carl corey]

I'm just afraid that your proposed tech order is a little slow in getting defensive units out if he doesn't go for the GW. There's a chance you won't find copper. (also, you'll have to make sure to delay the settler in order to get it out once you know if you have at least copper nearby). In that case your tech order means having to research 6 techs before getting a reasonably good unit (protective archer). And you'd still have to build the archers. I don't know, it might be fast enough, I'm just worried that after a few waves of barbs you'll be left fighting for your cities, instead of founding new ones. If you build the GW that's another story of course.

 

[slaze]

I think arguments can be made for each of the three possible capital sites:

I don't know man, the original looks so good, food for four specialists and all, exactly the kind of cities saladin wants

I agree with those who say it's too early to start going crazy about the super-early builds.

Settling vs Infiltrate

1) Your target AI get's dogpiled and stops teching, leaving you with alot of worthless eps. A settled GS can redirect espionage to the next best AI.
2) What if you end up teching better than your espionage victum. Even Darius and Musa have poor teching games.
3) Settling GSpys with a scotland yard and appropriate use of a spy specialist in the capital will let you steal ALOT more than 8-10 techs during the game. More like 15-20, and consistently thoughout the game not just easrly stuff.
4) Sal is a week techign AI, especially with the slow start here. Espionage will help level the field.
5) An extra 3 beakers/turn is not trivial especially in the capital which is likely to have an academy and Oxford.
6) Finally, there are several games I played out as a walkthrough and RPC game showing how powerful the settled GSpy can be, especially for an AI like Saladin who is handicapped a bit with a weak protective trait.

Just my final push for a settled GSpy. Of course if you decide to skip the GW wonder it's a non-issue.

Sorry man, you play a Monarch AI spy game, which may work well for you, but it ain't the optimum use of EP. Infiltration with a devoted EE beats a settled great spy any day of the week. It's a matter of numbers and the build up doesn't touch the explosion. Some of your point i take issue with. #4, why? Nothing causes him to tech week. We got a riverside capitol that's as good as the rest of them. I'd argue we have a advantage in our great prophets; a settled GP is a big help on the eco. Our capitol has the food to support all four slots, spy points may be added in there but i think you wing it and make a plan on whatever you get, preists or scientists. If you have preference for one over the other take two down onto farms during growing cycles but look to have all four running as much as possible, at least in the city of mecca.

perhaps we should consider a long-term Great Person strategy for Saladin?

Preists and scientists all the time, take what you get. Look for city site just like the capitol. Double food sites = the *^%#$

For the record

1) I think the Great Wall would overcome some of the teching issues as you can delay the military techs if it's built early (right now you need 2 techs for any militayr unit other than warriors).

2) I am all for getting lot's of Great Prophets using Sal's UB. My point regarding the GSpy is that you will likely get one based on the GW wonder.

Don't settle near that stone, if you end up with some spy points in there so be it, but i still vote for the pyramids, and that's if i can't vote for early expansion.

One of the few advantages of starting with The Wheel (ok, maybe the only advantage) is that your early workers always have something to do.

This is not good. You need to be doing something productive, and builing roads is number ten on that list. Chopping comes before that. Sisiutil struggles a little bit in his worker actions, he doesn't even build his roads right (they should go on the diagonals as much as possible) but this start calls for corn and a pasture right away. Some hills, maybe a few more farms (i haven't looked it over that well) and then some roads for the archers.

I'm still tempted to go for religion

 

[Nares]

I'm just worried that after a few waves of barbs you'll be left fighting for your cities, instead of founding new ones.

This isn't Deity with Raging Barbarians.

Barbs are a consideration.

I still think there's a 50/50 chance that the third resource is horses (I'm reasonably positive it's horses or iron). If it's horses, you've gotten your necessary military tech.

Perhaps Agriculture to Animal Husbandry, should Sis return to the start, would be best? Or Agriculture to Hunting to Animal Husbandry? There will be (some) time between researching Agriculture and farming the corn. This also opens up scouts for exploration while reducing the cost of AH and leaving him just one tech from military should horses fail to appear.

You need to be doing something productive, and builing roads is number ten on that list. Chopping comes before that.

Building roads to nowhere is number ten. Building roads to connect resources you don't need connected yet is number nine.

Building roads into forests you're going to start chopping as soon as BW is finished is possibly number five. Better than leaving him sitting around.

The real question is which is more important here, AH or BW? I'd say BW, then research AH while chopping a second worker or the first settler.

 

[carl corey]

I've had an Emperor game in which I attacked the nearby AI, while the distant AI on the same continent was a poor techer. I decided to infiltrate the first with a GSpy, stole a few techs, took down his city defenses and still was left with too many wasted espionage points. If I infiltrated the second I would have had to choose pretty weird tech paths in order to get my money's worth for the GSpy... I'm not sure how often a situation like this arises, but when it does it means that you're not going to use the full amount of espionage points. Of course sometimes stealing those early techs is better than using all the espionage points anyway. But it's not so cut and dry as it appears at first look.

 

[carl corey]

This isn't Deity with Raging Barbarians.

Barbs are a consideration.

I still think there's a 50/50 chance that the third resource is horses (I'm reasonably positive it's horses or iron). If it's horses, you've gotten your necessary military tech.

Perhaps Agriculture to Animal Husbandry, should Sis return to the start, would be best? Or Agriculture to Hunting to Animal Husbandry? There will be (some) time between researching Agriculture and farming the corn. This also opens up scouts for exploration while reducing the cost of AH and leaving him just one tech from military should horses fail to appear.

Good points. Agri->Hunting->AH is an idea to consider if we return to the original starting point. I'm not sure that he does have a third resource though. I've had crappy Emperor starts that were worse than a two-food one. My current game (with Toku and no economical bonuses...) had a wheat/iron capital, no floodplains, no river, two plains hills, one normal hill, one 1-tile lake and SEVEN plains tiles. Frankly, I was even hoping for two military resources to make up for the crappy site...

 

[Nares]

My current game (with Toku and no economical bonuses...) had a wheat/iron capital, no floodplains, no river, two plains hills, one normal hill, one 1-tile lake and SEVEN plains tiles.

Ouch. One of the downsides of settling at the start is that it has more plains, but they're almost all forested (good for preserving them for later).

Was that Toku start heavily forested as well?

 

[carl corey]

Fairly forested I think. Don't remember too well, I started this last week. That's one of the crappiest starts for sure, so I'm not saying that's the norm or anything. Chopped everything in sight to conquer Pacal's two holy cities (one with early shrine).

 

[ratrangerm]

I think the decision between Great Wall and Pyramids will boil down to the surrounding terrain. Pyramids will work best for an SE, but the land surrounding it needs to lend itself to that.

I've had games with Alexander in which I wanted to run an SE, but ended up with a start in which the land didn't allow for it because the map didn't allow for enough city sites early on to get an SE going. There were sites, but they were far away, too far to really justify taking with maintenance costs high.

I will add another point that I hadn't considered previously: Returning to the original spot gets a Grassland hill next to a river, meaning the hammers also include a point of commerce, something the Stone won't provide since it's not next to the river.