d.a.oconnell
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
- Messages
- 56
Where do you get the gold from though? just overproduction or putting gold in the que?
ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Overproduction beyond the 50% of your current build overflow.
EDIT: I'm reasonably sure my math is off, if sound in theory.
Vale's thread, which players have repeatedly referenced, goes into more detail, and can verify the exact treatment of overflow hammers.
Gorrable
Chieftain
Bah.
So I'd discovered these forums a while back and lurked for a while. Good way to kill time while on a computer and too tired to work.
Lately, I un-install Civ so I can study for my finals. Way too addictive. I find myself coming on here for a bit more often. Fine, I thought, good way to get my Civ fix without it eating my life.
Then I discover the ALC archives.
...
I swear to god, if I fail my finals, or at least make several stupid errors in my IR exam, I'm blaiming you.
(should probably go in the ALC bullpen, but I didn't want to bump it up.)
So I'd discovered these forums a while back and lurked for a while. Good way to kill time while on a computer and too tired to work.
Lately, I un-install Civ so I can study for my finals. Way too addictive. I find myself coming on here for a bit more often. Fine, I thought, good way to get my Civ fix without it eating my life.
Then I discover the ALC archives.
...
I swear to god, if I fail my finals, or at least make several stupid errors in my IR exam, I'm blaiming you.
(should probably go in the ALC bullpen, but I didn't want to bump it up.)
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
RE: overflow 'exploit'
I understand conceptually, but I'm still not sure it was worth doing, other than as an exercise, if the overflow is capped at half the hammers of the overflowed item.
Sis spent two chops, hammers to get the walls nearly built, 10 worker turns (for the chop), 1 pop for the whip, and 1 unhappy face to get a little overflow into the Pyramids and a pile of gold.
Had he simply put the two chops into the Pyramids, he would have spent the same two chops and 10 worker turns. All of the chop hammers would go to the pyramids, at 200% for having stone hooked up. He would have all the production time that went to the walls going to the Pyramids too, and would have 1 more pop and no unhappy face.
Was it worth it? I'm guessing the chop-whip-overflow-gold tactic delayed the Pyramids by at least 5-10 turns (time spent building wall + hammers lost in overflow/gold conversion, not to mention the lost production from the whipped citizen).
I understand conceptually, but I'm still not sure it was worth doing, other than as an exercise, if the overflow is capped at half the hammers of the overflowed item.
Sis spent two chops, hammers to get the walls nearly built, 10 worker turns (for the chop), 1 pop for the whip, and 1 unhappy face to get a little overflow into the Pyramids and a pile of gold.
Had he simply put the two chops into the Pyramids, he would have spent the same two chops and 10 worker turns. All of the chop hammers would go to the pyramids, at 200% for having stone hooked up. He would have all the production time that went to the walls going to the Pyramids too, and would have 1 more pop and no unhappy face.
Was it worth it? I'm guessing the chop-whip-overflow-gold tactic delayed the Pyramids by at least 5-10 turns (time spent building wall + hammers lost in overflow/gold conversion, not to mention the lost production from the whipped citizen).
In this particular situation, yes.
Sis needed the money to fund research of Writing.
Without Writing, those Pyramids are a glorified pile of stones.
Were the chops well spent? Only given the situation Sis put himself into. He needed that overflow cash for research.
Would the chops have been better spent on the Pyramids, provided the research situation wasn't so drastic? Absolutely.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Lol ... it's an ALC first ...
... we have a Take 2 round in a Take 2 game. I LOVE IT!
Oh yeah ... Aksum is likely to swallow Medina's Gems, too, if a Madrassa doesn't pop up there soon!
... we have a Take 2 round in a Take 2 game. I LOVE IT!
Oh yeah ... Aksum is likely to swallow Medina's Gems, too, if a Madrassa doesn't pop up there soon!
whakamole
Artful Dodger
I agree with our salivating ursine friend on this one. Not sure why open borders are up with Zara, if the strategy is to pin him behind our cities? If that culture-monger starts REXing on our backlines, the pressure could really squeeze our territory. It would be a shame to go to war with him (by slaughtering a settler/archer combo touring Arab lands) before we're ready.
Stuck in Pi
3.14159265358979323846...
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 646
My plan vs. Zara.
1. Settle on the south coast
2. Cancel open borders.
3. Pray he decides to play nice until you can invade him.
1. Settle on the south coast
2. Cancel open borders.
3. Pray he decides to play nice until you can invade him.
Kev
Hired Goon
Don't forget he also got city walls out of the deal. Not saying that makes it all worthwhile, but it is another item on the other side of the ledger.
Seems to be a very case-by-case situation as to whether it's worth it or not. Had this city NOT been building the Pyramids would it have been a better deal? Don't know. Should also consider things like how quickly the pop might grow back, how much of an effect a (temporary) unhappy citizen might be, how useful are walls now compared to another time, etc.
In essence, though, having that much cash on hand can be very handy in the early going I would think. Allows one to max science for that much longer, and would be especially nice if huts did not bring any cash to the table or if the player comes across a nice random even for which some gold could provide a nice extra bonus.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
I presume you are referring to writing --> madrassa --> scientist specialists. That makes sense. I agree that Madrassas are critical in this game, both for beakers and cultural defense.
Representation supports the Madrassa in two ways ... more beakers per specialist and bigger cities to allow easier feeding of specialists without gimping production.
So I see the short-term benefit from getting writing sooner. In a roundabout way, Sis ended up chopping and whipping beakers.
Now Sis just needs to crack the whip and get those Madrassas built .. especially since Zara is Creative and has half price libraries. Zara's satellite cities, with just a Stele and a Library, pump out 5 culture per turn ((2 creative + 2 library) x 1.25 =5). Throw in a religion and a temple, and it gets even uglier. Not to mention the uber-culture flowing from Aksum.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
Drat. I had incorrectly recalled that the Stele only gave the multipler. So if it is 6.25 cpt, then the best Sis can match is what, 5 cpt (Madrassa + Monument)?
We're going to have to get a religion or take him out, at some point.
whakamole
Artful Dodger
Actually, Zara's stelae doubled culture output in 1325BC (1000 years after Stonehenge built, according to Sis's previous screenshot on the wonder list).
Should be 7.5cpt (or 10cpt with a 1000-year-old library)
Or build select wonders in Medina.
Let's say that Ivory comes online. SoZ could be put in Medina. There's currently gold available. Shwedagon Paya could be put in Medina.
Both are pretty culture intensive, I believe.
Well you certainly got properly punished for "cheating" in the first attempt. 
Sury and Rosy not going to war is a big negative for you as it now makes you the potential target of three civs that are stronger than you, not one. And the barbs seemed to get even for the "erasure" of their previous city by not cooperating by blocking Zara and by destroying a floodplain and messing up plans for city placement.
This attempt was a bit better played, but there were still some major mistakes:
Why research Writing before IW if you aren't going to build Madrassas? IW would have provided an immediate benefit from letting the gems get hooked up, as well as a power boost and revealing the location of iron. Even Hunting and Archery could have gone before Writing if your cities aren't going to prioritize Madrassas. And this is with two cities under severe cultural pressure.
While the Protective, stone wall whip/chop overflow trick was nicely done I don't see how it makes sense to do it in a city that is building a critical wonder. You didn't miss out in this case, but Pyramids is too important to take that sort of gamble IMO. I suppose if your plan all along was to go back and reload if you got beaten then that might explain it, although it does start to show how your strategy is being skewed in favor of risky behavior with the knowledge that you can avoid the bad outcome by reloading.
You have way too few workers and have been working unimproved tiles for much too long. If you don't have high yield tiles available for all the citizens in a city you should be whipping workers and then letting the population grow back while building other things (granaries, barracks, military units, Madrassas, etc.) instead of stagnating your cities to slow build workers.
Most seriously, I'm afraid you've let the Zara monster out of the bag. You had a chance when the copper tile flipped to go in and choke him to deny him any strategic resources. With only archers available he wouldn't have been a threat until Construction. Since he was pinned against the ocean it wouldn't have taken many chariots to do it. Now he has the resources he needs to build a powerful army that will be hard to counter. Since he's blocked in it's only a matter of time before he attacks. You better hope those Protective archers are as invincible as some people think.
And did you notice how his GNP has spiked since finishing the Great Lighthouse? 
I'm not sure how to proceed at this point. A military buildup to try to give yourself a chance if an attack occurs soon seems in order. But Baghdad's copper won't be hooked up for at least 20 turns so the only units available are archers and chariots. They won't do much to boost your power rating, and they aren't going to be able to handle a mixed unit invasion force.
Maybe the best thing at this point is just to roll the dice and hope you aren't attacked for a while. Focus on some expansion (horizontal AND vertical) at the start of the next round. Get the copper hooked up and start building quality military units. And pray Zara doesn't come calling before you're ready. Or Rosy. Or Sury. Or all of them.
Sury and Rosy not going to war is a big negative for you as it now makes you the potential target of three civs that are stronger than you, not one. And the barbs seemed to get even for the "erasure" of their previous city by not cooperating by blocking Zara and by destroying a floodplain and messing up plans for city placement.
This attempt was a bit better played, but there were still some major mistakes:
Why research Writing before IW if you aren't going to build Madrassas? IW would have provided an immediate benefit from letting the gems get hooked up, as well as a power boost and revealing the location of iron. Even Hunting and Archery could have gone before Writing if your cities aren't going to prioritize Madrassas. And this is with two cities under severe cultural pressure.
While the Protective, stone wall whip/chop overflow trick was nicely done I don't see how it makes sense to do it in a city that is building a critical wonder. You didn't miss out in this case, but Pyramids is too important to take that sort of gamble IMO. I suppose if your plan all along was to go back and reload if you got beaten then that might explain it, although it does start to show how your strategy is being skewed in favor of risky behavior with the knowledge that you can avoid the bad outcome by reloading.
You have way too few workers and have been working unimproved tiles for much too long. If you don't have high yield tiles available for all the citizens in a city you should be whipping workers and then letting the population grow back while building other things (granaries, barracks, military units, Madrassas, etc.) instead of stagnating your cities to slow build workers.
Most seriously, I'm afraid you've let the Zara monster out of the bag. You had a chance when the copper tile flipped to go in and choke him to deny him any strategic resources. With only archers available he wouldn't have been a threat until Construction. Since he was pinned against the ocean it wouldn't have taken many chariots to do it. Now he has the resources he needs to build a powerful army that will be hard to counter. Since he's blocked in it's only a matter of time before he attacks. You better hope those Protective archers are as invincible as some people think.
And did you notice how his GNP has spiked since finishing the Great Lighthouse? I'm not sure how to proceed at this point. A military buildup to try to give yourself a chance if an attack occurs soon seems in order. But Baghdad's copper won't be hooked up for at least 20 turns so the only units available are archers and chariots. They won't do much to boost your power rating, and they aren't going to be able to handle a mixed unit invasion force.
Maybe the best thing at this point is just to roll the dice and hope you aren't attacked for a while. Focus on some expansion (horizontal AND vertical) at the start of the next round. Get the copper hooked up and start building quality military units. And pray Zara doesn't come calling before you're ready. Or Rosy. Or Sury. Or all of them.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
So long as Zara's attacking cities, CG2 archers behind walls will hold him at bay.
[humor]And the advantage of having unimproved tiles is there will be less to pillage.
[/humor]
[humor]And the advantage of having unimproved tiles is there will be less to pillage.
[/humor]whakamole
Artful Dodger
ratrangerm
Prince
For everyone who has said Sis needs to get those Madrassas going, I agree with them all. All the cities, other than the capital, desperately need Madrassas or Zara's culture will keep stealing tiles.
The capital really needs to be the military production center. Getting Archers and Chariots will at least help Sis' power rating a bit, and Chariots are exactly what he needs to take care of any Axemen coming his way. He still needs Copper or Iron, obviously, to further increase his power rating.
I agree with Validator that a mistake was made in opening the borders with Zara... I can understand the reason for claiming Ivory (another Happiness resource to raise caps) but now the time has come to get that Corn/seafood city to further cut off Zara, and absolutely the borders should be closed. You know about his lands, you don't need to keep the borders open.
After cutting Zara off, along with building up military, Alphabet will certainly be needed, but so will Construction and Horseback Riding (War Elephants will definitely be needed) and you've also got to be ready in case Zara gets HR... he's got Ivory, after all.
And I will say it again: Don't be surprised if Zara pursues CoL and founds a religion from it. That's more worries as far as culture goes.
I can't open the saved game, so I'll ask this: Did somebody build the Oracle yet? If not, be wary of either Roosevelt or Zara building it... Zara may be inclinded to take CoL, but there's no telling what Roosevelt might take. It may not be Feudalism as Ragnar did in one of your ALCs, but him getting Metal Casting means he gets his cheap Forges and can start cranking out the army.
The capital really needs to be the military production center. Getting Archers and Chariots will at least help Sis' power rating a bit, and Chariots are exactly what he needs to take care of any Axemen coming his way. He still needs Copper or Iron, obviously, to further increase his power rating.
I agree with Validator that a mistake was made in opening the borders with Zara... I can understand the reason for claiming Ivory (another Happiness resource to raise caps) but now the time has come to get that Corn/seafood city to further cut off Zara, and absolutely the borders should be closed. You know about his lands, you don't need to keep the borders open.
After cutting Zara off, along with building up military, Alphabet will certainly be needed, but so will Construction and Horseback Riding (War Elephants will definitely be needed) and you've also got to be ready in case Zara gets HR... he's got Ivory, after all.
And I will say it again: Don't be surprised if Zara pursues CoL and founds a religion from it. That's more worries as far as culture goes.
I can't open the saved game, so I'll ask this: Did somebody build the Oracle yet? If not, be wary of either Roosevelt or Zara building it... Zara may be inclinded to take CoL, but there's no telling what Roosevelt might take. It may not be Feudalism as Ragnar did in one of your ALCs, but him getting Metal Casting means he gets his cheap Forges and can start cranking out the army.
