ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

Generally speaking, 4 cities in 300BC is weak, but sometimes your surrounding lands just cannot produce enough commerce to support anymore than that. What that means is that he's stuck at 4 cities because of commerce. If that is indeed the case, then while a dedicated military effort would surely work against any emperor AI, eliminating a rival and getting more cities won't solve your original problem. If his lands are commerce-rich, on the other hand, then yes, it is sloppy gameplay, but after over 20 ALC games, I doubt that his play could be classified as "sloppy".
Thank you. Everyone should really remember that the reason I'm lagging in REX is because we went a-wonder-whoring, and that path was the general consensus amongst the peanut gallery here. ;) The price you pay for going after an early wonder (or in this case, two early wonders!) is that you inevitably lag behind in settlements (and military) because your best Settler/unit-factory, the capital, was funneling its hammers into wonders instead. The idea is that the wonders, if they grant enough of an advantage, will allow you to slingshot back into contention later on.

Well, the wonder-whoring is over for now, so it's time to turn our attention to making that "slingshot effect" happen. Fortunately, the barbarians have founded two well-located cities for me, so that saves me two Settlers--and they're holding on to that land, as it usually takes the AI quite some time to build up a force to take barb cities, and I can slow that possibility down further by closing my borders, in particular so Zara can't waltz over there and set up shop in my backyard (which you just know he's dying to do). Thus, building up some military will both help my power rating and my lack of cities. As I mentioned, I'm also hoping to capture those two barb Workers to help out in that regard.

Nevertheless, as we mentioned, two additional cities need to be founded ASAP--the SE blocking city and the tundra iron city--and many more Workers are needed. So I'm going to have my hands full in the next round. I think the two cities and more Workers are the top priorities. I'll need to at least have that copper hooked up and generate more units--and possibly research HBR--before I'm even close to go capturing cities, so those 2 cities will likely remain barbified until late in the round at the earliest.

After Validator's perceptive (as usual) post, I am leaning back towards infiltration with the GSpy, though generating regular Spies is going to be tough what with the lengthy to-do list I have.
 
If you don't get your workers up soon enough, you might have to use Serfdom. :lol:
 
After Validator's perceptive (as usual) post, I am leaning back towards infiltration with the GSpy, though generating regular Spies is going to be tough what with the lengthy to-do list I have.
Generating regular spies? You mean you want one or more?
 
If you don't get your workers up soon enough, you might have to use Serfdom. :lol:
Actually, that may not be a bad idea! Since Saladin is Spiritual, I might actually use that civic in this game.
Generating regular spies? You mean you want one or more?
Well, yeah, Spies tend to get caught and their missions often fail. If I'm going to steal techs thanks to an infiltration mission, I'll probably want at least 3 Spies to be assured some level of success, and I'll probably have to replace them regularly, especially if I take the risk of leaving them stationary in a city for 5 turns to get the 50% espionage mission discount.
 
Well, yeah, Spies tend to get caught and their missions often fail.
Nevermind. I read that as you wanting more Great Spies, not that you will need to build spies in order to use the EPs from infiltration.
 
Actually, that may not be a bad idea! Since Saladin is Spiritual, I might actually use that civic in this game.

Man, I forgot how cool being Spiritual is! Even with the "no anarchy during Golden Ages" from BtS there are still times when you have to plan very carefully what you want to do if you're not Spiritual. Grouping civics, delaying switches, no quick in-and-out-of-slavery moments (or if you have to, wasting at least two turns for it)... That's it, I'm playing a spiritual leader next! :D
 
Actually, that may not be a bad idea! Since Saladin is Spiritual, I might actually use that civic in this game.

I know. I phrased it as humor so that there wouldn't be an argument. :)
 
Registered finally just for this thread =P

Just so I could say infil and take some of Zara's cities with spies/swords. Someone suggested HBR, I'd agree but it would take a little long, Swords should be fine. You're outclassed for rexing. If you sit and try to peacefully expand vs Zara I think you're going to get yourself into a worse position than you've got now. You really don't want to try to take him out when he has Longbows, do you?
 
"longbows" Why not?
"peacefully expand" Worse how? Outclassed how?
 
Because longbows are a pain w/o a tech lead? And I say outclassed just because Zara is crazy. His culture push it pretty amazing and he likes snatching up land. Would have to grab that Iron asap! Don't really understand your questions, I guess?
 
Because longbows are a pain w/o a tech lead? And I say outclassed just because Zara is crazy. His culture push it pretty amazing and he likes snatching up land. Would have to grab that Iron asap! Don't really understand your questions, I guess?
I think I see your point about being outclassed for REXing--the AI usually does that anyway, and when it's Creative as well...

As for Longbows, yes, they're a pain, but you just need to bring along more Catapults or, even better, Trebuchets. And keep in mind that I'm the Protective leader on this map, so my Longbows will be the ones that are truly intimidating.
 
I'd avoid Infiltration, most of the techs are fairly cheap easy ones (religious path to monarchy, Fishing/sailing, Math*)
Noone seeme to have anything From Math that you want (Construction/Currency/CoL)
Settling for the 6 rp[7.5 with UB] should give a greater yield (and you can use the EP to see what is going on) and give you things you want. (HBR, Construction, Currency, CoL)

* the only useful thing they seem to have
 
Krikkitone, the point of infiltrating isn't just the techs they have now.

Sisutil's GNP is less than half of Zara's. As time goes by, Zara will gain *more* techs on him. Worse, Zara is running out of room; Sisutil is about to start expanding. His economy will not take off for some time to come - and by that time, he'll be looking at a war and yet more economic costs.

The inevitable conclusion is that Sisutil's research will be second-rate for a while (though he could probably still get Liberalism). Given that, infiltrating & stealing techs over a long-term period looks inviting.

The only question is, should he infiltrate Zara (more techs & higher GNP), even though he's probably going to be the first to die? I'm inclined to say yes, but I'd like to see other opinions...
 
Well the thing is there are 5 useful techs before going to/finishing war
HBR, Math, Construction, Currency*, CoL*

* These improve the GNP so he Can tech ahead by himself after finishing the war and controlling 1/2 the continent.

Now he could probably get most of that with a GSpy, the question is who since Math is the only thing anyone has on that shopping list, and would the 6 rp (+12 ep) be better... considering he can also trade for some of them

Shopping list
America: Fishing, Sailing, Math [Backwards tech wise... missing Masonry... but hates you so may not trade]
Africa: Fishing, Sailing, Math, Poly, Priesthood
Asia: Fishing, Sailing?, Polytheism, Priesthood, Monarchy [far away, but has a monopoly tech]

+6 rps would be a 20% boost in your 30 rp/turn research... getting HBR sooner, and Currency too.

on the other hand Infiltrate would let you Immediately see Zara... providing useful info... but you could get that just by devoting points to him after settling (you get 4x as many as he does... and that alone might encourage him to go espionage... slowing him down)


OK Revised ideas
1. Settle Spy.. direct eps to Zara to keep track of him
2. Research: HBR, Currency, Math, Construction, CoL (Trade for Math if possible... they can't take forever with the Gardens.. especially if you gift Roosevelt Masonry... he may build them for you)
3. Settle 2 more gaining Iron
4. Horse Archer the Barbs
5. Build Melee+Archer portion of invasion force/develop cities
6. on getting Construction, mass up some Cats+Elephants (the cats keep the mice from scaring the elephants)
7. Invade Zara while researching CoL

[Trade to Sury for the Religious and Water Techs]
 
First of all just to clarify Zara definitely has Construction, and has had it for some time since Gondar has a colosseum. (What has he been researching since finishing Construction? HBR maybe? :mischief:)

The only question is, should he infiltrate Zara (more techs & higher GNP), even though he's probably going to be the first to die? I'm inclined to say yes, but I'd like to see other opinions...

Zara seems the best option for infiltrating at this point. Sisiutil is nowhere near ready to go to war. The priority for the next round is expansion (and possibly the next round after that). Given Zara's high GNP it seems likely he'll acquire several high value techs during that time. Sisiutil should try to trade for whatever he can and also make sure he gets the max stationary spy bonus when stealing any high cost techs to make his EPs last longer. It seems likely he's going to run out of EPs before he runs out of techs to steal or is ready to take Zara out.



Regarding taking the barbs out with HAs, one of the reasons I think axes is a better option is Sisiutil is going to need to build some military early in the next round to keep from falling to far behind in the power rating. Baghdad's copper will be hooked up in a few turns so axes will be available shortly. Teching HBR and then building stables before HAs is going to mean a significant delay in any military buildup.

The two barb cities are not on hills so axes should be able to get the job done without major losses.
 
First of all just to clarify Zara definitely has Construction, and has had it for some time since Gondar has a colosseum. (What has he been researching since finishing Construction? HBR maybe? :mischief:)

Ah, don't have the game on this computer so was just going by the screen shots
In that case definitely infiltrate... because extra EP on Zara can go be used for wall knocking down/general mischief

so Infiltrate.. and research what Zara is Not researching (from Math/Construction/HBR/Currency/CoL) and steal what he has.. and once you have Construction+HBR Invade (steal Currency+CoL during the invasion if he gets them)
 
If you infiltrate Zara don't forget about religious discounts should the opportunity arise, that would be good in any case since it would seem Zara is your biggest threat right now although I consider Sury to be pretty crazy, he's often attacked me early and from far off when I've started on the same continent as him.
 
My initial impression was that this map was great, and cruising to win wouldn't be a problem.

Now, when Zara has been allowed to grow*, things look more interesting. As I see it, the way Sis has played so far only makes the game challenging and fun in that I'm eagerly awating him to show us all how to
- avoid losing a war against Zara (I'm expecting him to DoW Saladin soon after borders are closed as he's got nowhere to go, and seems to have a solid tech and power lead on the Arabians)
- actually win the war against the currently-superior Emperor AI (i.e. Zara). Obviously pulling it off through culture would be most amazing, especially as I see going Madrassas (for the culture benefit) is a lost cause.
- all this while expanding and while keeping the other two AI's off his back (I really like the fact Sury never attacked the Yanks in this reality - that would have made the diplomatic game almost too easy)

So you see, the development so far actually makes this ALC more exciting! :-)

*) I'm only a Monarch player, but ever since I started becoming way more aggressive to my close neighbours, I'm starting to rake in some consistent wins (unless of course, some tech-whore AI runs away on a distant continent). Teching Archery (to not have to fighter Archers with Warriors) and DoWing your close civs (after making sure there's at least one more AI you can remain pals with) even if you have no intention of an early rush; this I have found often bursts their bubble completely with me quickly cruising to double or even triple the score even before any major invasions.

Obviously they might be more vicious at Emperor (I'm guessing having a few Archers around for defense isn't optional any longer - not that this would have been a problem for Saladin)
 
- avoid losing a war against Zara (I'm expecting him to DoW Saladin soon after borders are closed as he's got nowhere to go, and seems to have a solid tech and power lead on the Arabians)
Zara's actually expanded to the north bordering with Roosevelt, so he can expand that way (he'll declare on the American for a price we're currently unable to match). He's also got some coast to his east, where he may plunk some cities. With GLH anything spammed there will be very profitable.

I don't think war with Ethiopia is the inevitability many people are making it out to be. Don't forget that rushing blindly into an unnecessary war was what put an end to the first Saladin game.

The key question here is which is going to give Arabia the greatest benefit, expanding peacefully into the space available, or sinking a lot of hammers into a war with a technologically superior opponent? If you're keen on war, you've also got to think about where the army is going to come from. Right now there's a stark choice between growth and either commerce or production in most cities, all of which are well below the high initial happy cap (thanks to 3 pre-calendar resources and representation).
 
Back
Top Bottom