ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

[Mukuu]

I completely agree with Scarredroman. Your getting way behind on your research, and it looks like that is only going to get worse. It may be worth considering going after Zara with cats earlier than later, which means switching to construction now. I dont think you got the spare hammers to build many courthouses until Zara is dealt with anyways.

Trading HBR sounds optimal to me. Im to tired to check the game right now, but Im sure you can get some use out of it (Someone mentioned sailing, meditation, and 80 gold, that sounds delicious to me!). I have a feeling your going to lose this trade soon... And knowing that the AI loves trading for it...

Also, taking out Zara leaves you time to stabilize your economy. America is going to be busy with a war. This should give you some time to get up to Guilds.

So, in summary, I think that...

Switch to Construction, get cats, take out Zara

CoL --> Meditation --> Aesthetics --> Philosophy (If religion is still available...?) --> Monarchy --> Feudalism --> Machinery--> Guilds

I just realized my list is nearly identical to Krikkitone's ... Great minds think alike! ... Dont finish that quote...

After guilds may be a good time to sit down and see what we got going on in the north... then again... at the rate your playing, you'll be back to us before Aesthetics.

... This may be a silly question... But we are getting silk from Rosey... If he goes and becomes a vassal quickly here, we are going to lose the silk... is this any sort of future problem? Or not worth the consideration...

EDIT: I dont think I like the idea of settling more cities at the moment... Again, after Zara... maybe after Guilds. I just dont see the immediate benefit of those areas when compared to some of Zara's

 

[pigswill]

You've gotten your cities. You're not miles behind on military. Growing and/or running specialists should enable economy to improve. Overall, not too bad.
You'll probably need to research construction yourself coz AIs seem reluctant to trade it.
Running priests and going for mono > theo > DR sounds like an interesting idea, you still get research bonus from rep.

 

[Egnarts]

I have to say im a bit baffled that you havnt founded a city south of Mecca on the plains hill grabbing rice and copper. Specialy since you dont need the rice for your commerc city at the floodplain+gold city.

 

[Sisiutil]

I have to say im a bit baffled that you havnt founded a city south of Mecca on the plains hill grabbing rice and copper. Specialy since you dont need the rice for your commerc city at the floodplain+gold city.

In interesting point; I'd assigned the rice to Gaul, but with all those flood plains, it doesn't really need the food, does it? A half-decent production city could indeed be founded in that location.

 

[DanF5771]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Asante sana.

Well, your power doesn't look too bad, even better than FDR. --> Might a quick war vs Roosy (together with Sury?) to snatch the MoM and go crazy with GAs afterwards be a good idea? Hmm, your cities are probably still too small to really benefit from GAs and with Representations from the Mids your GPs might better be settled.

Speaking of GPs: imho it is in the early ADs when they contribute the most to a successful game thus I always focus on setting a farm up early - Aksum would surely be fabulous for that but when will you realistically be able to let it pump out GPs for you? --> I would consider irrigating Gaul (which should keep its rice) instead - I mean with 4 gold mines + 2 gem mines + a cottaged capital - will you really need another commerce city in your "SE"?

Speaking of irrigation: you do seem to like roads more than farms. Remember, roads decrease the chance of a spontaneous forest spread + on epic speed movement cost is relatively lower. For me it's quicker growth > quicker movement. I would have also farmed the 2 river jumbos @ Baghdad (still size 2).

Speaking of jumbos: You don't need them for trade since both Zara and FDR have them and you definitely don't want to give them to Sury --> I would also reconsider attaching your GG to a Chariot for the MASH unit with all that ivory on your continent. You would not like to see your Doc picked out of your SoD by a Ballista Elephant.

Speaking of military: What do you think about switching to Police State during some chop&whip cycles when building up your army to gain from its 25% hammer bonus - you have all the prerequisites, Mids + spiritual + soon extra happiness from calendar resources?

Last thing: I always try to let my strong cities help my weak cities to get up on their legs as quickly as possible. So here I would think about letting Estruscan build the work boat for Kufah (whip after whipped granary & monument) and let the chopped hammers of Kufah flow into a granary.

PS: Someone on the other continent is in serious trouble and probably reduced to 2 or 3 cities (MfG of 11???). Have there been a lot of GGs born yet?

 

[Daedal]

There seem to be two big threats at the moment: Zara's culture and a lack of beakers. Madrassas are good for dealing with the beaker situation as long as you can run lots of specialists once they finish. Construction should be the next research focus so you can spam catapults. Stage the catapults in Najran to prevent it flipping and set up for war.

Can we war with horses or would you rather wait for camels? It's a tough call without knowing more about Zara, but the options are growing fewer and fewer. I just can't see going on with as few beakers as now and you're out of uber city spots to settle or capture. Warring with Zara may be the lesser evil in this situation.

 

[slaze]

I would consider irrigating Gaul (which should keep its rice) instead - I mean with 4 gold mines + 2 gem mines + a cottaged capital - will you really need another commerce city in your "SE"?

With so many floodplains, I'd cottage. Health will catch up quickly with so much food. And if you decide to use only a certain number of farms (there would be plenty) well, then you're only using a certain number of farms. Give the rice to the production center to its east, and cottage.

And given the current happy caps, you're begining to enter population's were it's bad to whip. Just grow into unhappy, and then whip, but grow all the way up there, into pop 13's. You're still working mines and such when you want to grow. Is the growth rate too slow that it scares you? Or is it that your unable to get yourself to build an item when it takes 179 turns with one ? I think you've just gotten too accustomed to epic/marathon. Grow, grow, grow, although you've been neglecting the infrastructure to do this properly for quite some time .

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well as for the tech plan...

I'd say go ahead and Trade Techs, especially if you can get to Priesthood. (that will make researching CoL easier)

so work on Construction until you have sucessfully traded for Priesthood (hopefully through meditation)
then finish CoL
then go back and finish Construction for war with Zara, for some good City spots (if WW is a problem you can go Police state temporarily)
then Aesthetics for ... Gold based Free Religion Wonder
then Philosophy for Angor Wat
then poly+Literature for Epics
then Feudalism, Machinery, Guilds

any GPs you get I would settle... especially Prophets

as for builds, maybe one or two more cities then monument, Granary, Walls (boost your power fast), Madrassas in border towns, Barracks, either Stable+Jumbo*, or Cat*/Archer*/Axe*/Spear*

once you have an army then pick the enemy... Zara is a bigger thorn in your side, Roosevelt is easier.

 

[JTMacc99]

I think that Construction might be all it takes to get your hands on the two important Zara cities as soon as possible. If you take those two cities, use some espionage to pick up a tech or two from him, (although flipping the capital for a turn might be an excellent way to speed up that offensive and a fine use of the EPs) you'd be looking at a giant boost to your own empire with what seems to be very little additional effort. You could probably just continue with everybody elses tech paths and economy advice, but divert just enough hammers to churn out a moderate stack of Cats and Elephants to add to whatever other units you can spare right now. It may be a little risky, but his capital is a real prize that seems to be there for the taking.

You might even have enough of a stack left over to take more than the two Zara cities, but even if you don't, he'd be reduced to a sitting duck until you can gear up with Camels and Trebs for the big American offensive. Clean him up first and then consolidate the forces and move on to the North.

 

[Validator]

Well as for the tech plan...

I'd say go ahead and Trade Techs, especially if you can get to Priesthood. (that will make researching CoL easier)

so work on Construction until you have sucessfully traded for Priesthood (hopefully through meditation)
then finish CoL
then go back and finish Construction for war with Zara, for some good City spots (if WW is a problem you can go Police state temporarily)
then Aesthetics for ... Gold based Free Religion Wonder
then Philosophy for Angor Wat
then poly+Literature for Epics
then Feudalism, Machinery, Guilds

One tech that you seem to have missed is Civil Service. Mecca was set up to be a cottage-spammed Bureaucratic capital. So I would think getting access to Bureaucracy should be a reasonable goal in the near-term. Irrigation chaining will come in handy also, and CS is a pretty good tech to trade if you beat the AIs to it.

I would look to get CS immediately after CoL, before Construction. A focus on getting the economy going is probably best here, since I really don't see the opportunity to war in the short term. It's going to take some time for the Arabian production cities to get going. By then Zara may have LBs.

And IMO Zara's cities are pretty poor with the notable exception of Aksum.

 

[Artichoker]

I think the focus should be on the economy.

There are two positives that haven't really been capitalized:

1) The Gem and Dye resources on the western side of the continent, near Roosevelt's cities.

We should try to get a city there, or take it from Roosevelt after he builds it there. We can build farms on the grassland tiles to accelerate growth.


2) The +3 research per specialist from Representation.

It's really time to start running the specialists. Since we don't have Marble, building the Great Library seems to be out of our grasp, but at least we can still run specialists from each city's surplus food.



Also, it's about time to plan for Heroic Epic and National Epic. We don't have Marble, so that's an extra cost we need to pay. There doesn't seem to be a Marble resource nearby, even in rival territory, but we will still need to build these national wonders.

 

[Validator]

1) The Gem and Dye resources on the western side of the continent, near Roosevelt's cities.

We should try to get a city there, or take it from Roosevelt after he builds it there.

I would be very surprised if that area isn't already taken. Sury has 9 cities including the corn/fish site W of Baghdad. It's unlikely he skipped over the gems/dye site to found corn/fish.

One criticism I have with Sisiutil's playstyle is that after he completes exploring the continent he tends to just leave his units sitting in his cities instead of taking advantage of OB to check on what his neighbors are up to. This frequently leaves him (and his faithful peanut gallery) having to decide which strategies to pursue based on incomplete information.

 

[NaZdReG]

I gotta agree at this point about attacking zara. if you can sack his capitol the wonders there will pay for themselves.

not to mention.. you really don't want him to get to astronomy. the trade from the TOA could eclipse 40gpt.

catapults would provide the nessessary oomph to wipe him out in short order. since roosevelt is warming up to you now is the time to do so.

so I'd suggest diverting research to construction. start infiltrating zara with spies. save enough EP's to flip his capitol the turn you assault so you don't have to waste time bombarding.

if you have enough ep's.. now would be the time to start using poison water or forment unhappyness to slow down his production.

NaZ

 

[KrikkitTwo]

As for a EPs in a war v. Zara, I probably would save some of them to steal tech off of him before he dies. (you should be able to pick up a few Cheap techs that way... especially ones like Meditation+Priesthood that will help you with CoL later)

 

[Kev]

I'd like to see spies used sooner rather than later. If we can get COL up earlier as well, the courthouses would help here too (especially in Mecca). If we get another great spy and build Scotland Yard in Mecca, we would be well set-up to utilize spies more than the usual game - and it's something I'd selfishly like to learn more about. Does being in Bureaucracy help with spy-points generation in the capital too or is that limited to gold and hammers?

I'd like to think that by now we have enough points to get smaller techs from Roos - hopefully saving those that we have on Zara. Further, I wonder if we have enough on Zara to steal construction (if close, I'd even consider upping the spy slider to get us there). That would be a key play. I think some spies now could be key units and benefit us potentially in many different ways.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Does being in Bureaucracy help with spy-points generation in the capital too or is that limited to gold and hammers?

Bureaucracy does NOT help gold
Bureaucracy helps Commerce

Here's how it works
1. your city gets

Commerce from
Tiles (Riverside, sea, resource, Cottages)
Trade Routes
Palace(+8Commerce)

This is then modified by Bureaucracy and split up into
Science, Gold, Culture, Espionage points by the Slider

2. Science comes from
Commerce via Slider (from step 1)
Specialists
Religious buildings (with UoS)

That is then added up and boosted by Libraries, Free Religion, etc.

3. Gold comes from
Commerce via Slider (from step 1)
Specialists
Religious buildings (with Spiral Minaret)
Shrines+Corporate HQs

That is then added up and boosted by Banks, Marketplaces, etc.

4. Culture comes from
Commerce via Slider (from step 1)
Specialists
Culture Buildings
Religions
Creative Trait

That is then added up and boosted by Cathedrals, Free Speech, etc.

5. Espionage comes from
Commerce via Slider (from step 1)
Specialists
Buildings

That is then added up and boosted by Castles, Nationhood, etc.



so Bureaucracy doesn't help specialists/Shrine/building bonuses

 

[slobberinbear]

Short answer for Kev: If you are using the espionage slider, yes, since Bureaucracy boosts commerce in the capital. If you are getting your EPs from buildings, specialists, and other sources, no.

Krik's post explains why Bureaucracy is better for cottaged and mined capitals, rather than heavily-farmed capitals running specialists.

 

[Kev]

Thanks for the answers. I'm enjoying learning more about espionage and wonder if it might be an underutilized aspect to some of my games. Perhaps not a full-on espionage economy, but at least an adjunct to those civs and situations that might benefit.

With that, I would again suggest utilizing espionage in the current situation. With increased EP's from the Great Spy it would be great to see this part of the game played out a bit here. Surely we can steal some techs from the locals and/or make some other nefarious efforts. Nice to be able to pillage key resources quickly should we go to war with Zara - not to mention the benefits of revolts and such.

 

[Artichoker]

I would be very surprised if that area isn't already taken. Sury has 9 cities including the corn/fish site W of Baghdad. It's unlikely he skipped over the gems/dye site to found corn/fish.

One criticism I have with Sisiutil's playstyle is that after he completes exploring the continent he tends to just leave his units sitting in his cities instead of taking advantage of OB to check on what his neighbors are up to. This frequently leaves him (and his faithful peanut gallery) having to decide which strategies to pursue based on incomplete information.

Regardless of whether that location is already settled, or who has settled it, I think we really need to see the current status of that location, because it seems like one of the best ways to solve the problems with our economy.

If Roosevelt has control over that land, we should take it away by force.

If Sury has control over it, we should also take it away by force...but try to trade for Feudalism or Machinery (for longbowmen and crossbowmen) before doing so.

If no one has settled it yet, we should put our own city there.

 

[Sisiutil]

One criticism I have with Sisiutil's playstyle is that after he completes exploring the continent he tends to just leave his units sitting in his cities instead of taking advantage of OB to check on what his neighbors are up to. This frequently leaves him (and his faithful peanut gallery) having to decide which strategies to pursue based on incomplete information.

Good idea. The Woodsman II Scout was doing some fog-busting for the iron city site last round. I'll get him wandering around foreign territory in the next round.