ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
NintendoTogepi
Noble Pacifist
I'm a lousy player but why should Zara be capiulated? He only has 4 cities and thus will not be able to tech well or do anything, and he'll just add more unhappiness to your cities.
CivSetä;6894832 said:
I'm not sure any of Zara's remaining cities are worth keeping. It may even make sense to liberate some of the captured cities after capitulation. The Arabian economy is in a bit of recession at the moment (breakeven at 20% = 150
/turn). The sooner the economy gets back on track the sooner Roosevelt can be dealt with. Plus there will be a diplo boost with Zara for liberating his former cities.Taking Zara out completely is an option. But it's going to take time. And the remaining Ethiopian cities aren't worth much. The fact that two are on islands just complicates matters more.
Putting an end to the war with Zara now seems to make the most sense so that Sisiutil can move on to bigger and better things (i.e. Roosevelt and eventually Sury).
Overtaking Zara completely is going to take a long while. Roosie is far more important to take over. If you let Zara live and take him as a vasal he can also absorb the brunt of the attack if you attack Roosevelt. Fighting from 2 sides is always better then just 1 side.
Just wondering, you didn't put the NE in Aksum because of the many great artists points over there (notre dam, statue, etc.....). Maoi Statues in Aksum is a nobrainer though. 12tiles get improved with that. Make it so.
So how are the camel archers faring btw? Never really fought with them to be honest.
Just wondering, you didn't put the NE in Aksum because of the many great artists points over there (notre dam, statue, etc.....). Maoi Statues in Aksum is a nobrainer though. 12tiles get improved with that. Make it so.
So how are the camel archers faring btw? Never really fought with them to be honest.
carl corey
Deity
Capitulate Zara and go for Roosevelt. I wouldn't worry about techs for now, you'll tech fast enough once you get the whole continent for yourself. 
By the way, great job this round.
By the way, great job this round.NintendoTogepi
Noble Pacifist
Yes, Sury first.
Roosevelt doesn't matter, Sury however will get horrifically powerful soon if you do not stop him.
And if you're going to capuilate Zara, at least take Yeha first.
Finally the war against Zara!
Now, we can start the speculation about the real opposition: the mystery civs on the other continent!
Let's just hope Arabia didn't lose too much time dallying around.
The bit about using wars to leverage the human's advantages over the AI is completely right, of course. But what we didn't see here is that, often, you only need to put the AI into war-mode for it to break down completely.
That is, phoney wars must be the ultimate tool: for a very low cost (assuming you can easily beat the AI in the field, as Sis has shown himself utterly capable of again and again) you take one single action that's almost always available that makes the AI turn off its greatest assets (regardless of whether you're threatening it with invasion or not): those teching and rexing skills...
And war weariness (perhaps the only major downside of extended warring) doesn't accumulate as long as you don't have any actual battles, or if you only have them in your own territory.
One other major advantage of letting a war drag on: you only take diplo hits for that single DoW. (In essence, the diplomatic penalty isn't for warring, it's for DoW'ing. So don't DoW, which means, don't make peace!)
Oh, one more thing. The Ethiopian stack outside Sis' city clearly showed how the AI is often unable to raid your lands in order to force you to be the attacker. Most SoDs just sit there, debating when the right time is to suicide itself completely and with no gain whatsoever. Most raiders the AI sends aren't well supported, and thus easily killed by the appropriate counter unit. This really plays to the Protective leader's advantage (waiting for the AI units to die to your superior city defenders) - as a human on the other hand, you would pillage the countryside to force those protective units to do what they don't do nearly so well: attacking or moving out in the open.
Now, we can start the speculation about the real opposition: the mystery civs on the other continent!
Let's just hope Arabia didn't lose too much time dallying around.
The bit about using wars to leverage the human's advantages over the AI is completely right, of course. But what we didn't see here is that, often, you only need to put the AI into war-mode for it to break down completely.
That is, phoney wars must be the ultimate tool: for a very low cost (assuming you can easily beat the AI in the field, as Sis has shown himself utterly capable of again and again) you take one single action that's almost always available that makes the AI turn off its greatest assets (regardless of whether you're threatening it with invasion or not): those teching and rexing skills...
And war weariness (perhaps the only major downside of extended warring) doesn't accumulate as long as you don't have any actual battles, or if you only have them in your own territory.
One other major advantage of letting a war drag on: you only take diplo hits for that single DoW. (In essence, the diplomatic penalty isn't for warring, it's for DoW'ing. So don't DoW, which means, don't make peace!
)Oh, one more thing. The Ethiopian stack outside Sis' city clearly showed how the AI is often unable to raid your lands in order to force you to be the attacker. Most SoDs just sit there, debating when the right time is to suicide itself completely and with no gain whatsoever. Most raiders the AI sends aren't well supported, and thus easily killed by the appropriate counter unit. This really plays to the Protective leader's advantage (waiting for the AI units to die to your superior city defenders) - as a human on the other hand, you would pillage the countryside to force those protective units to do what they don't do nearly so well: attacking or moving out in the open.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Anyone else missing pictures for Sisutils latest reports?
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
On taking out an AI vs forcing capitulation:
Usually, you want to take them out and use the cities for yourself (the culture becomes 100% yours also which is nice, and no motherland anger). The exceptions to this rule I find are:
You're weakened militarily or WW-crippled, so finishing them off would require a ton of extra effort that isn't worth it OR
You have a military tech lead, and want to use the advantage against as many AIs as possible before it expires.
I'll leave it up to Sis whether he thinks one way or the other is better here.
Usually, you want to take them out and use the cities for yourself (the culture becomes 100% yours also which is nice, and no motherland anger). The exceptions to this rule I find are:
You're weakened militarily or WW-crippled, so finishing them off would require a ton of extra effort that isn't worth it OR
You have a military tech lead, and want to use the advantage against as many AIs as possible before it expires.
I'll leave it up to Sis whether he thinks one way or the other is better here.
That is if the 3 cities shown on the world map are all the cities that Zara has left. If that is the case then it could be worth it to go for them but I am afraid Zara has at least one or two more island cities. The AI in BtS is so terrible keen on settling on islands it is crazy. They don't care if the city has only 1 snow tile and only sea tiles 
About Sury getting to strong, maybe bribe him to go to war against Roosie. Let him take the brunt and then capture all cities of Roosie. After that Sury is next and you only have 1 border to protect.
About Sury getting to strong, maybe bribe him to go to war against Roosie. Let him take the brunt and then capture all cities of Roosie. After that Sury is next and you only have 1 border to protect.
DrJambo
Crash-test dummy
Unless you're planning on wiping out Zara completely, I'd accept his offer of capitulation immediately and move on to Roosevelt. I'd like to see a conquest victory since they are generally hard to achieve due to domination getting in the way first. Vassals and liberating cities are key to accomplishing conquest victories.
Plus, you'll want to get into Roosevelt before Sury forces him to capitulate.
Plus, you'll want to get into Roosevelt before Sury forces him to capitulate.
Der Graf
Omnipresent Eye
I'd take Yeha and make Zara capitulate afterwards.
Then heal/rebuild your veteran stack in Yeha and send them on a sight-seeing-trip to the Broadway, NY wouldn't be that far away
After Roosevelt is done (I would take him out completely) Sury will not stand a chance against the Arabian Empire.
Then heal/rebuild your veteran stack in Yeha and send them on a sight-seeing-trip to the Broadway, NY wouldn't be that far away
After Roosevelt is done (I would take him out completely) Sury will not stand a chance against the Arabian Empire.
sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 2,038
For a domination victory, your empire is kinda small for the 1300's.
Usually at this point I would simply milk that tech off him and declare peace, then finish him off with another stack a few centuries away. I can't quite do the math, but it depends on how many turns it would take for the "We yearn to join the motherland" to go away. With his former capital having 8 world wonders, my answer is "a long time". You'll win, but the supreme confidence is unwarranted. Although I have to admit your warmongering skills have improved a lot.
Usually at this point I would simply milk that tech off him and declare peace, then finish him off with another stack a few centuries away. I can't quite do the math, but it depends on how many turns it would take for the "We yearn to join the motherland" to go away. With his former capital having 8 world wonders, my answer is "a long time". You'll win, but the supreme confidence is unwarranted. Although I have to admit your warmongering skills have improved a lot.
I would definitely vassalize Zara. _3_ times in my last 2 games a civ I was attacking vassalized to a Civ that was only Pleased with me and I was forced to war against someone I didn't want to He will vassalize to Sury if you're not quick about it, and that would be bad.
Plus his Oromos are powerful now and they may well help against the other 2.
As to gifting back cities, that is a possibility, but remember that even though your cities will always get their fat cross to work, they can still go into revolt due to culture pressure...
He will vassalize to Sury if you're not quick about it, and that would be bad.Plus his Oromos are powerful now and they may well help against the other 2.
As to gifting back cities, that is a possibility, but remember that even though your cities will always get their fat cross to work, they can still go into revolt due to culture pressure...
SETX Aggie
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 5
Long time lurker, first time poster. 90% because of the ALC's.
If you capitulate Zara, will his island cities give you foreign intercontinental trade routes even in the age of mercantilism? If so, I think that is a mark in the "pro vassalize" column.
If you capitulate Zara, will his island cities give you foreign intercontinental trade routes even in the age of mercantilism? If so, I think that is a mark in the "pro vassalize" column.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I'd say it's late. When you finished researching Gunpowder you entered the Renaissance era and failed the quest. Which happened on the next turn.
I hadn't noticed that! Oh well. After looking at the map again, I think taking the risk of capturing Yeha, as several of you have recommended, before ending the war makes sense. Yeha is now Creative Zara's capital and will put pressure on NY once I capture it, even if Zara is my vassal. I'm even thinking of just making peace with Zara and then going back and wiping him out completely once I have Galleons. He's so weakened at this point that he wouldn't do anyone much good as a vassal.CivSetä;6894832 said:
Well, Roosevelt has some nice resources (extra spices and silk), a couple of decent wonders, and his cities would then become buffers between Sury and my own core cities. I think that may be reason enough to take him on. In addition, I'll have some tedious cultural boundary battles with America's cities in the middle of my empire. And I wouldn't be surprised if Roosevelt joined the war anyway on Sury's side--he doesn't like either of us, but likes me even less. He's suffered some damage to Sury already, so he may capitulate to him and then become an ally against me.Yes, Sury first.
Roosevelt doesn't matter, Sury however will get horrifically powerful soon if you do not stop him.
On the other hand, I do acknowledge the risk of leaving Sury alone for too long. Looking at the tech tree, he's not too far away from Military Tradition and Cuirassiers (if he decides to go that route). Those units would be a pain, as they don't have a true counter until Rifles come along.
Daedal
Prince
Going for a complete kill of Zara is completely counterproductive. The other continent is already ahead so quick, decisive wars are needed to catch up. Accept capitulation and move on.
On Sury vs Roosy, Roosy is the better target right now. You have the troops and you know you can defeat him quickly. Quick, decisive war. Gearing up for war with Sury will take a bit more time. So grab Roosy's cities now and regroup afterward.
On Sury vs Roosy, Roosy is the better target right now. You have the troops and you know you can defeat him quickly. Quick, decisive war. Gearing up for war with Sury will take a bit more time. So grab Roosy's cities now and regroup afterward.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
I'd Capitulate Zara because
1. Eliminating the island cities will be an Extreme problem
2. The remaining cities don't look like they have much to recommend them
3. You can move towards speedy conquest of the continent. (American ex-Jungle land looks much better... and you can get Free Religion without bothering to research Liberalism)
4. Extra Happy from Vassal (the unhappiness from Motherland will fade eventually with Madrassas)
1. Eliminating the island cities will be an Extreme problem
2. The remaining cities don't look like they have much to recommend them
3. You can move towards speedy conquest of the continent. (American ex-Jungle land looks much better... and you can get Free Religion without bothering to research Liberalism)
4. Extra Happy
from Vassal (the unhappiness from Motherland will fade eventually with Madrassas)
