ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

[Stuck in Pi]

Capitulation sounds good here. Roosy looks juicy, but see if you can keep Sury out of it. More land for you!

 

[civ4legs]

I'm even thinking of just making peace with Zara and then going back and wiping him out completely once I have Galleons. He's so weakened at this point that he wouldn't do anyone much good as a vassal.

I am sure that he will vassalize to Sury if you don't vassalize him yourself soon. I think you should just take it now: I don't think there is much at all to gain from not accepting now. Culture on NY is a valid concern, but unless your stack is closeby I expect him to vassalize quickly.

Perhaps one gambit would be to get Sury to declare on him. While they aren't speaking you could snap up that last city there and then vassalize. I am pretty sure that you would get immediate peace with Sury when you do that. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[patagonia]

I'd Capitulate Zara because

1. Eliminating the island cities will be an Extreme problem
2. The remaining cities don't look like they have much to recommend them
3. You can move towards speedy conquest of the continent. (American ex-Jungle land looks much better... and you can get Free Religion without bothering to research Liberalism)
4. Extra Happy from Vassal (the unhappiness from Motherland will fade eventually with Madrassas)

I concur.

And what a difference a war makes. In the early ALCs you were a builder, but now there's little doubt you're an out and out warmonger

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I'm with the Sury next crowd. This map is begging for him to be trimmed down a touch. I mean, have you seen the shape of his empire?

Vassal Zara can take the brunt of his attacks in the north while you trim away his 3 southern mainland cities at your leisure. Sury and Roosevelt hate each other, so there'll be no OB with the Americans to give him an easy route to attack Arabia. Once you've taken the south, you can either continue working your way up the coast, or head inland to the US on 3 fronts.

Trebs/muskets/camel archers are a useful war combination for hundreds of years, especially if you build enough of them, so there's no real need to let up. Besides, you're only 2 techs from cannons and 3 from having both those and grens, so you can get newer, fancier troops online as you fight.

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For the sake of other players, I do need to point out one extremely move you've made without thinking, or rather two.

Sury's UU may no longer seem a threat now that you've got pikes, but you've gone and made your medic 3 with a chariot. And then traded ivory to Sury. That means any Ballista elephants are going to home straight in on your super-medic. It'd have been much more sensible to make a medic 3 scout when you knew you'd be facing Khmer troops. True, you'd struggle to get that 26th XP for the morale promotion, but he'd be safe from harm for the rest of the game.

 

[civ4legs]

Sury's UU may no longer seem a threat now that you've got pikes, but you've gone and made your medic 3 with a chariot. And then traded ivory to Sury. That means any Ballista elephants are going to home straight in on your super-medic. It'd have been much more sensible to make a medic 3 scout when you knew you'd be facing Khmer troops. True, you'd struggle to get that 26th XP for the morale promotion, but he'd be safe from harm for the rest of the game.

Wow, I hadn't thought about that! I would DEFINITELY cancel the deal ASAP for this reason alone!

I am just about through a game with Monty now, so my mash unit is a glorious jaguar with Woodsman 3 and Medic3. It's a beaut!

 

[CivCorpse]

I concur.


Sury's UU may no longer seem a threat now that you've got pikes, but you've gone and made your medic 3 with a chariot. And then traded ivory to Sury. That means any Ballista elephants are going to home straight in on your super-medic. It'd have been much more sensible to make a medic 3 scout when you knew you'd be facing Khmer troops. True, you'd struggle to get that 26th XP for the morale promotion, but he'd be safe from harm for the rest of the game.

Pikes mean nothing to Ballista Elephants because they don't defend against them until all the mounted units are dead. Mounted units means all Sis' CA's.
As for the medic. I agree with not using a chariot. I often wonder why players don't build a scout in a city with a settled GG and vassalage/theocracy. 7exp plus a GG means level6. And if it comes down to a scout being the best defender then your problems go waaaaaay beyond ballista elephants. But definately cancel the deal.

 

[Stuck in Pi]

one thing that is bad about scouts being medics: no woody 3. My opinion: take a early melee unit (warrior?), get it to woody 3 early, then save it for your MASH. You should be able to get it to the xp for morale.

 

[DMOC]

Capitulating now is the best option.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I'd say capitulate, even if just for the fact that you want the techs he has. In 10 turns, he's gonna get chemistry. Trying to finish him off while he has grens doesn't sound good.

 

[7Fang]

What's a MASH unit?

 

[Bandobras Took]

I'd say capitulate, even if just for the fact that you want the techs he has. I 10 turns, he's gonna get chemistry. Trying to finish him off while he has grens doesn't sound good.

Grenadiers do not come with Chemistry in BtS, I think.

 

[JujuLautre]

Since everyone agree that Sury is the biggest threat now, why not go after him before Roosy?
If at the same time you can start a war between them both, then Sury will face 3 civ (Roosy, you, and your *future* vassal), and Roosy will act as a buffer for you against Sury.
If not, in any case, Roosy will act as a protection; I mean that Sury's troops can't get to you through Roosy's land.
Of course, you would have to reinforce both yourself and Zara at this point before going to war. But with Sury down, owning your continent is just piece of cake.

 

[vale]

What's a MASH unit?

Mobile Army Surgical Hospital

aka Medic unit.

 

[Pieman]

A (super?) medic unit I suppose.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Why all the talk about buffers? This isn't the USSR, buffers aren't worth trying to arrange in Civ4. Especially when we're protective and think that's so swell.

Yeha isn't worth the time it takes to move your stack up to it. Accept capitulation, or taste the sting of Zara vassalizing to someone else. Attack Roosevelt next because he's closer than Suryvarman II. Call me simple, but I think spending fewer turns with your military units traveling is worth aiming for when you're going to conquer the continent anyway.

 

[Jet]

Sisiutil adopted MASH unit to mean a 3-move unit with Medic III and Morale for healing, movement, and West Point.

I think he may sometimes also use the term to refer to 2-move units with only Medic I or II, but especially the first one and especially when it gets to 6 XP, noting that it has been prepared to get the Great General later.

 

[Jet]

I noticed that you need to adopt Mercantilism. Surya has been in it for 15 turns. That will get you twice as much moolah as the Bank: 32 from the Bank at 20% versus (12 cities x 6) - 6 upkeep = 64 from the raw specialists.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutil adopted MASH unit to mean a 3-move unit with Medic III and Morale for healing, movement, and West Point.

I think he may sometimes also use the term to refer to 2-move units with only Medic I or II, but especially the first one and especially when it gets to 6 XP, noting that it has been prepared to get the Great General later.

That's pretty accurate. MASH stands for Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, and when I talk about a MASH unit, I'm referring to whichever unit I choose to get Combat I and Medic I - III courtesy of an attached Great General. I usually try to get a Chariot to Medic I and 6 or 7 XPs early in the game, at which point he becomes my "intended" MASH unit.

I call it that because I'm lazy; MASH is easier to type than "Combat I Medic III Morale-promoted Great General-attached unit".

 

[CivCorpse]

Using a melee unit with woodsman3 medic3 combat1 and morale requires level 9. Which is 65 exp. 20 from a GG leaves 45 more. That is a lot of exp to get without upgrading and risking the MASH unit as a defender.

 

[Jet]

For now I suggest Scientists in Aksum rather than Moai tiles.
* Rep
* for now it's your only city with an Academy
* your science bar is likely to stay low (which I think is fine)
* there are good scientist techs coming up (at least Education, PP, and Chemistry, if not Paper and Philo)

 

[kniteowl]

I chose Gunpowder for many reasons. Again, it leverages Protective. I'm warmongering now, so war techs are a priority. And Zara had researched it for his annoying UU several turns back, and Protective Musketmen with Pinch seemed like the best counters for those annoying Oromo Warriors. With Gunpowder in the bag, I started pursuing the techs I needed to go out and meet the other civs--you know, the jerks who've been hogging all the religions. Oh, one of 'em beat me to Liberalism this round, too. I don't care too much now that I'm killing things, though.

Just nit picking (is that the right word???) but would your UU knight do a better job countering Oromo, immune to first strikes, can promote to pinch without the requirement of a military civic becuase of stables, higer base strength + withdrawal chance, the only dowside I see is that those Oromo's could be defended by Pikemen... but that's what the higher withdrawal chacne is for.

great gameplay so far btw, I haven't played Civ in ages becuase I'm busy, but it's still interesting to read up on the ALC games.