carl corey
Deity
I vote "Dark Emitting Diode" take your pick. 
ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
schwartz
King
I'm pretty sure he meant Dravidian Etymological Dictionary.
Komunyst_Indian
Chieftain
Yharr you colonial.. colonial overlords .. we will get you one day...
but when rugby starts... oh.. oh the carnage... who will be laughing then ( btw i go for the all blacks ) gotta love the haka
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I finally played the next round tonight. It's late and I'm tired; I'll post it tomorrow.
JujuLautre
Deity
Late? You just posted at 3pm 
Oh, wait, we're not on the same place, right
Oh, wait, we're not on the same place, right
Guardian_PL
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,231
He's Canadian, they're a sturdy folk 
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 8: 460 AD to 990 AD (40 turns)
Okay, break's over.
I went back over all the posts and did my best to cobble together and follow what I thought was the best of the advice I'd been given. I held off on a civics change for a few turns and decided not to use the Great Scientist for a golden age or for paper, but for an academy.
That shaved a turn off of Engineering, which was rewarding to see immediately.
Some of you suggested hitting up Hannibal and Justinian for some of their gold. They weren't feeling generous. However, I was able to trade maps with Hannibal, who had Paper on me at the beginning of the round. Here's what his continent looks like:
So as I had surmised, he does indeed share his land mass with Mehmed. And with someone else, as you can see down at the lower right, someone we'll meet up with shortly.
Those of you who thought I'd left the Colossus late were correct:
Saladin just keeps making Mecca into a more tempting prize. He built the University of Sankore there too, before the end of the round. As for me, I was about 3 turns short of completing the wonder and received 242 gold for my efforts.
I then finished the tech I'd been researching.
I had held off on any civics changes because I was building a wonder. Even after that race finished, I held off until I finished my next tech; the AI gets this bonus for research on Immortal level, after all, and I've noticed that if you want to be able to trade a tech you have to get it quickly and move it quickly. Hence the delay for my 2 civics changes until after Engineering was done.
As I had mentioned previously in the thread, Vassalage and Free Religion made the most sense to me. As has been noted, since the capital is the GP farm rather than a cottage/commerce city, it won't benefit nearly as much from Bureaucracy. But Vassalage will help tremendously in building up forces first to fend off a pre-emptive strike by Saladin, then to build up an offensive force. Free Religion, meanwhile, leverages the Shwedagon Paya and saves hammers going to Islamic missionaries that can now go to military units.
With the civics change done, it was time to see what I could get for Engineering. First from Mehmed:
Then on the next turn I did a bit of tech brokering with Saladin:
I would have preferred to trade with Justinian for Compass, but he had Paper already and was offering very little for Engineering, which tole me he was researching it himself.
As you can see, he wasn't even offering me Theology in exchange for it, which confirmed my suspicions. I was happy to take a good amount of gold from him for it. You might notice that all these trades for gold helped out in another way, as I was able to push the science slider up and deficit research for several turns.
And one more trade, this one with Darius.
Around this time I met the leader who's tucked into that lower-right corner of the Ottoman/Carthaginian land mass.
Despite his apparent lack of territory, Pacal is nevertheless doing all right for himself. In fact, in this round, he soundly beat me to Liberalism (of course, I wasn't really pursuing it, focusing as I was on military techs instead).
Speaking of military techs...
I traded this one around a bit as well.
And I finally got around to founding one of those remaining cities we'd planned.
I traded Guilds again, this time with Hannibal.
Normally I wouldn't make a trade like this--lopsided and with the tech/board leader--but I've been learning that on Immortal you often have to take what you can get.
I then acquired my next military tech, one several of you recommended pursuing instead of one of its prerequisites, Education.
I then decided to pursue Chemistry. It would lead to both Steel for Cannon and Military Science for Grenadiers, and it might make another good trading tech if need be.
And I got a quest, one that seems custom-designed for Hammurabi and his UB:
However, I haven't set off in pursuit right away. I'm starting to focus my builds in my established cities on military in anticipation of a war with Saladin. However, the Gardens may be very helpful with war weariness, so I'll consider whipping some later on. I seem to recall that the rewards from this quest include an extra happy citizen or two from the Colosseums/Gardens, a Golden Age if you own the Statue of Zeus, and... something else.
I lucked out on my next Great Person and got a Great Prophet thanks to the priest specialist I'd been running in Babylon. I used him for the Christian shrine in Gondar.
That put an extra 17 GPT in my pocket, and as you can see I was building a commerce multiplier in Gondar to make it go even further. However, one downside from the Great Prophet rather than a Great Scientists was that it put the nail in the coffin of winning the Liberalism race. Of course, I'd kind of done that already by pursuing military techs. Since I owned the Shwedagon Paya, many of you noted that Liberalism was lower in importance. And staying in Slavery (and yes, I have been whipping a fair bit) rather than going to Caste System was also a big factor. Normally I switch to CS as soon as I obtain Code of Laws, then run as many scientists as I can in my GP farm, where I've usually built the Great Library. Using the many resulting Great Scientists to lightbulb the Liberalism prerequisites (Philosophy, Paper, Education) usually ensures me of a win in that race. Not this time.
However, I managed a very lucky, fluky win in another race: circumnavigation!
I had built a Trireme in Babylon just before obtaining Optics from Hannibal. I upgraded it to a Caravel and sent it to the tip of Darius' land, which as you can see was separated from the other continent by only a couple of ocean tiles. Somehow I manage do beat Hannibal to it and won the bonus, even after an attack by a barb Galley.
I founded the other city that we'd planned on the southwest coast.
And then, on the last turn of the round, I finished my next tech.
I can't build Frigates or Privateers because I don't have Astronomy. Some of the AI leaders have it, but with the proximity of land in this game, it hasn't been a priority--Darius is the only one I can't trade with at the moment. Though that could change if a war with Saladin starts.
Speaking of Sally, he kept vacillating between Annoyed and Cautious this round. I thought he might attack, but I managed to put some strong units in our border cities, along with walls and castles, and Sally doesn't seem to be quite the military nut that some other leaders are. So no DoW from him, and no big stack o' doom that I can see. He has Engineering and Guilds and a decent power rating, however, so he won't be a pushover.
Not a very eventful round in terms of military. I built several units, chopping and whipping a few of them, but mainly focused on building a defensive force to ward off attack rather than an offensive force, which will take longer. I managed to more or less keep up in terms of techs thanks to all the trading I did. The science slider is high--around 70% to even 90%--which means it's definitely time to expand, and now that I've claimed all of the available city sites, that means it has to be done through war. So I think the next round will see a continuation of a military build-up--more offensive than defensive, though--and the beginning of the war with Arabia.
The saved game file is below. A state of the world post will follow.
Okay, break's over.
I went back over all the posts and did my best to cobble together and follow what I thought was the best of the advice I'd been given. I held off on a civics change for a few turns and decided not to use the Great Scientist for a golden age or for paper, but for an academy.
That shaved a turn off of Engineering, which was rewarding to see immediately.
Some of you suggested hitting up Hannibal and Justinian for some of their gold. They weren't feeling generous. However, I was able to trade maps with Hannibal, who had Paper on me at the beginning of the round. Here's what his continent looks like:
So as I had surmised, he does indeed share his land mass with Mehmed. And with someone else, as you can see down at the lower right, someone we'll meet up with shortly.
Those of you who thought I'd left the Colossus late were correct:
Saladin just keeps making Mecca into a more tempting prize. He built the University of Sankore there too, before the end of the round. As for me, I was about 3 turns short of completing the wonder and received 242 gold for my efforts.
I then finished the tech I'd been researching.
I had held off on any civics changes because I was building a wonder. Even after that race finished, I held off until I finished my next tech; the AI gets this bonus for research on Immortal level, after all, and I've noticed that if you want to be able to trade a tech you have to get it quickly and move it quickly. Hence the delay for my 2 civics changes until after Engineering was done.
As I had mentioned previously in the thread, Vassalage and Free Religion made the most sense to me. As has been noted, since the capital is the GP farm rather than a cottage/commerce city, it won't benefit nearly as much from Bureaucracy. But Vassalage will help tremendously in building up forces first to fend off a pre-emptive strike by Saladin, then to build up an offensive force. Free Religion, meanwhile, leverages the Shwedagon Paya and saves hammers going to Islamic missionaries that can now go to military units.
With the civics change done, it was time to see what I could get for Engineering. First from Mehmed:
Then on the next turn I did a bit of tech brokering with Saladin:
I would have preferred to trade with Justinian for Compass, but he had Paper already and was offering very little for Engineering, which tole me he was researching it himself.
As you can see, he wasn't even offering me Theology in exchange for it, which confirmed my suspicions. I was happy to take a good amount of gold from him for it. You might notice that all these trades for gold helped out in another way, as I was able to push the science slider up and deficit research for several turns.
And one more trade, this one with Darius.
Around this time I met the leader who's tucked into that lower-right corner of the Ottoman/Carthaginian land mass.
Despite his apparent lack of territory, Pacal is nevertheless doing all right for himself. In fact, in this round, he soundly beat me to Liberalism (of course, I wasn't really pursuing it, focusing as I was on military techs instead).
Speaking of military techs...
I traded this one around a bit as well.
And I finally got around to founding one of those remaining cities we'd planned.
I traded Guilds again, this time with Hannibal.
Normally I wouldn't make a trade like this--lopsided and with the tech/board leader--but I've been learning that on Immortal you often have to take what you can get.
I then acquired my next military tech, one several of you recommended pursuing instead of one of its prerequisites, Education.
I then decided to pursue Chemistry. It would lead to both Steel for Cannon and Military Science for Grenadiers, and it might make another good trading tech if need be.
And I got a quest, one that seems custom-designed for Hammurabi and his UB:
However, I haven't set off in pursuit right away. I'm starting to focus my builds in my established cities on military in anticipation of a war with Saladin. However, the Gardens may be very helpful with war weariness, so I'll consider whipping some later on. I seem to recall that the rewards from this quest include an extra happy citizen or two from the Colosseums/Gardens, a Golden Age if you own the Statue of Zeus, and... something else.
I lucked out on my next Great Person and got a Great Prophet thanks to the priest specialist I'd been running in Babylon. I used him for the Christian shrine in Gondar.
That put an extra 17 GPT in my pocket, and as you can see I was building a commerce multiplier in Gondar to make it go even further. However, one downside from the Great Prophet rather than a Great Scientists was that it put the nail in the coffin of winning the Liberalism race. Of course, I'd kind of done that already by pursuing military techs. Since I owned the Shwedagon Paya, many of you noted that Liberalism was lower in importance. And staying in Slavery (and yes, I have been whipping a fair bit) rather than going to Caste System was also a big factor. Normally I switch to CS as soon as I obtain Code of Laws, then run as many scientists as I can in my GP farm, where I've usually built the Great Library. Using the many resulting Great Scientists to lightbulb the Liberalism prerequisites (Philosophy, Paper, Education) usually ensures me of a win in that race. Not this time.
However, I managed a very lucky, fluky win in another race: circumnavigation!
I had built a Trireme in Babylon just before obtaining Optics from Hannibal. I upgraded it to a Caravel and sent it to the tip of Darius' land, which as you can see was separated from the other continent by only a couple of ocean tiles. Somehow I manage do beat Hannibal to it and won the bonus, even after an attack by a barb Galley.
I founded the other city that we'd planned on the southwest coast.
And then, on the last turn of the round, I finished my next tech.
I can't build Frigates or Privateers because I don't have Astronomy. Some of the AI leaders have it, but with the proximity of land in this game, it hasn't been a priority--Darius is the only one I can't trade with at the moment. Though that could change if a war with Saladin starts.
Speaking of Sally, he kept vacillating between Annoyed and Cautious this round. I thought he might attack, but I managed to put some strong units in our border cities, along with walls and castles, and Sally doesn't seem to be quite the military nut that some other leaders are. So no DoW from him, and no big stack o' doom that I can see. He has Engineering and Guilds and a decent power rating, however, so he won't be a pushover.
Not a very eventful round in terms of military. I built several units, chopping and whipping a few of them, but mainly focused on building a defensive force to ward off attack rather than an offensive force, which will take longer. I managed to more or less keep up in terms of techs thanks to all the trading I did. The science slider is high--around 70% to even 90%--which means it's definitely time to expand, and now that I've claimed all of the available city sites, that means it has to be done through war. So I think the next round will see a continuation of a military build-up--more offensive than defensive, though--and the beginning of the war with Arabia.
The saved game file is below. A state of the world post will follow.
Stuck in Pi
3.14159265358979323846...
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 646
psst: Uh, you said Hannibal instead of Hammurabi when mentioning the quest.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The State of the World, 990 AD
First off, a look at the map:
Domestic Advisor:
Aksum is building a Granary because spies destroyed the existing one. The likely culprit is Saladin, who's just beggin' for a whuppin', don't you think?
Foreign Advisor:
This seem to be working out here thus far, with the two most likely targets--Saladin and Ragnar--at Cautious, everyone else at Pleased.
Active trade deals:
Resources:
Some of you advised cancelling trade deals that benefited the AI. I really tried, but the only one I figured I didn't really need was a deal with Hannibal for silk.
Trade route income and civics:
Techs:
So I now have two techs in hand (Gunpowder and Chemistry) on just about everyone. However, many of them have a few techs in hand on me. And wouldn't you know it, I don't really have anything to offer to the leaders who are willing to trade with me.
So, what next? Steel for Cannon? That would certainly leverage my decision to go after Chemistry. But is it the best choice? Or should I be trying to backfill some other techs?
Religion:
So I have four different religions in my various cities. One concern I have is that I don't think I've built many monasteries, and Scientific Method can't be that far away, but I'm preoccupied with military builds for now.
Victory conditions:
I haven't committed myself to anything yet. I'll have to see how the war against Saladin goes and where I stand at the end of it.
Power:
Saladin is way up there, but a lot of that could just be population. I've had a Chariot wandering his territory all round and haven't seen a huge stack of units anywhere, though he does have a decent number of medieval units and those troublesome Camel Archers. The best approach with them would probably be to declare war and then absorb attacks by his CAs with Musketmen and Pikes on a good defensive tile while the siege weapons wait somewhere else. When he's low on mounted units, then I move the siege units forward and attack one of his cities. If I see another stack of CAs headed my way, I repeat the tactic.
Demographics:
Top 5 Cities:
Come to think of it, the Colossus will be obsolete soon, and the U of S will do me no good if I'm running Free Religion. However, the Islamic shrine is the real prize, as is getting rid of my nearest, decidedly unfriendly rival and claiming some very good land and resources.
Espionage:
So the focus is on Saladin, but I'm trying not to neglect everyone else. I now have visibility into Saladin's and Justinian's research.
And that's it. I look forward to hearing all your advice on what to do next.
First off, a look at the map:
Domestic Advisor:
Aksum is building a Granary because spies destroyed the existing one. The likely culprit is Saladin, who's just beggin' for a whuppin', don't you think?
Foreign Advisor:
This seem to be working out here thus far, with the two most likely targets--Saladin and Ragnar--at Cautious, everyone else at Pleased.
Active trade deals:
Resources:
Some of you advised cancelling trade deals that benefited the AI. I really tried, but the only one I figured I didn't really need was a deal with Hannibal for silk.
Trade route income and civics:
Techs:
So I now have two techs in hand (Gunpowder and Chemistry) on just about everyone. However, many of them have a few techs in hand on me. And wouldn't you know it, I don't really have anything to offer to the leaders who are willing to trade with me.
So, what next? Steel for Cannon? That would certainly leverage my decision to go after Chemistry. But is it the best choice? Or should I be trying to backfill some other techs?
Religion:
So I have four different religions in my various cities. One concern I have is that I don't think I've built many monasteries, and Scientific Method can't be that far away, but I'm preoccupied with military builds for now.
Victory conditions:
I haven't committed myself to anything yet. I'll have to see how the war against Saladin goes and where I stand at the end of it.
Power:
Saladin is way up there, but a lot of that could just be population. I've had a Chariot wandering his territory all round and haven't seen a huge stack of units anywhere, though he does have a decent number of medieval units and those troublesome Camel Archers. The best approach with them would probably be to declare war and then absorb attacks by his CAs with Musketmen and Pikes on a good defensive tile while the siege weapons wait somewhere else. When he's low on mounted units, then I move the siege units forward and attack one of his cities. If I see another stack of CAs headed my way, I repeat the tactic.
Demographics:
Top 5 Cities:
Come to think of it, the Colossus will be obsolete soon, and the U of S will do me no good if I'm running Free Religion. However, the Islamic shrine is the real prize, as is getting rid of my nearest, decidedly unfriendly rival and claiming some very good land and resources.
Espionage:
So the focus is on Saladin, but I'm trying not to neglect everyone else. I now have visibility into Saladin's and Justinian's research.
And that's it. I look forward to hearing all your advice on what to do next.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Whoops, fixed. Thanks for the catch.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Definitely go for cannons
Snovvdog
Warlord
Hmmm Sala is going for military tradition...
His power level could mean a big stack though, I once had the same situation in a different game, but with the ai Dutch ( I was Kublai khan), power level was 2x higher than mine while I had 20 + offensive units + avg 5 units per city... The dutch cities looked lightly defended by 3 longbows mostly, I declare war and out of nowhere a stack of 30+ ( of which about 15 trebuchets) pops up heading for my citys, I lost, so be very weary of saladin, if possible, while you still have open borders place 1 obsolete unit in each of his cities to track his army to make sure you haven't missed anything.
But I agree, he has to die, one way or the other. It's a shame his enemy's are on the other landmasses, as you could bribe the turks and mayans against him...
Obviously the target is the Arabian capital, which will be a massive hit to his economy.
Try to lure his army to the south by a defensive stack which you'll fortify on hills/forests in his land near his southern cities, then go asap to Baghdad, and immediately after to mecca. Once you have that you could just go for the lightest defended cities and eventually get to the last well defended city ( where perhaps your defensive stack still is?)...
And as r rolo1 says, cannons asap, they will be essential.
Also be prepared that he can make any unit he knows off, raiding his resources will be near impossible and too costly, you just need to make good use of city raider upgrades and cannons and take his best cities to cripple his economy.
His power level could mean a big stack though, I once had the same situation in a different game, but with the ai Dutch ( I was Kublai khan), power level was 2x higher than mine while I had 20 + offensive units + avg 5 units per city... The dutch cities looked lightly defended by 3 longbows mostly, I declare war and out of nowhere a stack of 30+ ( of which about 15 trebuchets) pops up heading for my citys, I lost, so be very weary of saladin, if possible, while you still have open borders place 1 obsolete unit in each of his cities to track his army to make sure you haven't missed anything.
But I agree, he has to die, one way or the other. It's a shame his enemy's are on the other landmasses, as you could bribe the turks and mayans against him...
Obviously the target is the Arabian capital, which will be a massive hit to his economy.
Try to lure his army to the south by a defensive stack which you'll fortify on hills/forests in his land near his southern cities, then go asap to Baghdad, and immediately after to mecca. Once you have that you could just go for the lightest defended cities and eventually get to the last well defended city ( where perhaps your defensive stack still is?)...
And as r rolo1 says, cannons asap, they will be essential.
Also be prepared that he can make any unit he knows off, raiding his resources will be near impossible and too costly, you just need to make good use of city raider upgrades and cannons and take his best cities to cripple his economy.
Shoot the Moon
Playing World in Conflict
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2005
- Messages
- 708
I'd take that 420 gold off of Darius for either Civil Service or Optics.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Be careful of a war with Saladin, from your diplomacy screen shot, both Ragnar and Justinian are both Friendly with him, A declaration of war, just may end theirs, and bring all 3 down on your head. hasn't their war been going on all round, so its due to end.
You really need to get Saladin to declare on you, avoid the demerit points for declaring, so look vulnerable but be strong...
you figure it out...
You really need to get Saladin to declare on you, avoid the demerit points for declaring, so look vulnerable but be strong...
you figure it out...I haven't opened the save yet, so you are spared my long winded suggestion post 'O' hints. Just a couple observations.
A. You traded Machinery to Darious for a world map and Theology. You have Swan paya thingy, so you basically traded a good tech for a world map.
B. you're proposing to go to war vs the strongest military force on the planet. who has a tech lead and superior production. One who is a tech and a half from Curssiars. One who will possibly have protective muskets soon as well. As much respect as I have for your warmongering skills, I think you are about to have your ass handed to you.
C. May i suggest switching tech path to Astronomy. The going after darius. He is the world leader in land size and if you let him develop it he is going to take off soon. He probably has a pile of cottages maturing which explains his slower tech speed. Right now he doesn't even have maces or pikes. Though he is closer to both since he traded his evidently priceless world map for machinery.
D. Spread the Islam and convert while adopting theocracy. Saladin will quickly love you. With asro and Chem you can build Frigates to defend your coast and with super power Saladin your BFF due to Islam/Theo your eastern flank is secure.
A. You traded Machinery to Darious for a world map and Theology. You have Swan paya thingy, so you basically traded a good tech for a world map.
B. you're proposing to go to war vs the strongest military force on the planet. who has a tech lead and superior production. One who is a tech and a half from Curssiars. One who will possibly have protective muskets soon as well. As much respect as I have for your warmongering skills, I think you are about to have your ass handed to you.
C. May i suggest switching tech path to Astronomy. The going after darius. He is the world leader in land size and if you let him develop it he is going to take off soon. He probably has a pile of cottages maturing which explains his slower tech speed. Right now he doesn't even have maces or pikes. Though he is closer to both since he traded his evidently priceless world map for machinery.
D. Spread the Islam and convert while adopting theocracy. Saladin will quickly love you. With asro and Chem you can build Frigates to defend your coast and with super power Saladin your BFF due to Islam/Theo your eastern flank is secure.
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