ALC Game #3: China/Qin

Edit too late:

First.. another Correction How Military bonuses Work
Except for the Combat 1-V bonus, all bonuse work as follows
1. Total Bonus for Defender-Bonuses for Attacker
apply this to the Defender.
If the amount is negative then divide by 1+the negative bonus

So CKN v Prat
CKN attacks
6 v 8/(1+50%)= 6 v 5.333

CKN defends
6(1+50%) v 8 = 9 v 8

So its actually sort of close... before you look at first strikes which basically crush the Prat.
Drill would probably be the best for the CKNs... since the only decent counter is horses (cheap Chariots)... and Formation is too far off.

OK... Lets see,

Have you researched Masonry? if not the Prophet might Give you CoL (assuming you Have researched Meditation)... If you have Masonry, then go for Theology with it (probable free Religion as well as a Key Cultural Wonder)


Also you need Writing for Theology anyways so....

Option 1,. Maximize Commerce (don't focus on pumping the CKNs yet)
Get Writing->CoL, Masonry->Monotheism, Prophet pop Theology burn the Infidels* and Now pump the CKNs [Maximize Production]

*revolt to Theocracy (The Buddhists will need to put down those strange Christians)


Option 2. If you DON'T have Masonry yet
Maximize Commerce
Get Writing->CoL, Prophet pop Civil Service, Revolt to Bureaucracy and Flood the Enemy with less Experienced but more Numerous CKNs.

(use the enhanced Commerce.. and any additional Prophets) to start up the Religious Track
 
Whoops, almost forgot the game save file.

I did go back and change a couple of things. Turns out Huayna also has Writing and agreed to an OB, so I changed research to Meditation. I also changed a production tile in Beijing to speed up the CKN.

Shanghai, however, will build a Workboat for the clams, then a Forge, then the Colossus.

I think I should also build another settler soon to go out east and try to beat Huayna to that horse tile. He may have access to horses somewhere I can't see, but why make it easy for him to develop my unit's only counter?

Maybe I should change the build order in the capital to hurry that Settler. It now looks like the best spot out there would be 1W of the rice, which would also claim the horse and the cow as well as being coastal.

Thoughts?
 
It looks to me as though you are focusing a bit too much on improvements at Beijing (what is that worker doing in the jungle? road?). I'd be paying more attention to digging Guangzhou out (right now, it is growing at half speed because you haven't cleared the jungle from the Ivory camp.

Give Huyana time to build the Shrine before you go after him.

If you burn the Prophet to score confucianism, you may want to load the dice for where the religion is founded. None of those cities looks like a particularly good choice, but of them I'd guess Guangzhou.
 
I may be reading too much into this, but in your big picture screenshot, the landmass northeast of Shanghai looks like it might be another continent rather than a small island.

The two desert tiles are obvious, then it extends two more tiles south, and if you look five tiles east of the clams, there's another desert in the fog. So it's at least that big. The map generator seems to be fond of generating north/south running strips of land for a continents map. I'm guessing that's another continent where you'll find more neighbors to the north.

You might want to pop out a workboat or galley at some point so you can send it exploring.
 
First of all allow me to say that your threads are absolutely great, Sisiutil :) I really like these kind of threads where other people can track your progress and offer advice. Kind of like a succession game, except only one player is allowed to take turns.

Until now I have lurked these threads but I think I will try and jump in if I may. I am but a mere Noble player but perhaps your threads can help me move up a level as well, who knows ;)

Sisiutil said:
Whoops, almost forgot the game save file.

Maybe I should change the build order in the capital to hurry that Settler. It now looks like the best spot out there would be 1W of the rice, which would also claim the horse and the cow as well as being coastal.

Thoughts?

Agreed. After the city's first border pop it will also be sealed off to the south, preventing HC from settling behind it.

I think you may have put a bit too much emphasis on Beijing and neglected the other cities.
Shanghai is working two unimproved tiles.
Guangzhou could work the Forest/Grassland instead, losing 1C but gaining 1F.

EDIT: After you 5th city is down and connected, I think it is time to go warmongering. You have no more room to expand. Of course this is probably obvious ;)
 
I think he is doin great .. Only reason Im not playing along with his game is I hate standard game speed .. I prefer Epic or even Marathon.
Speaking of which .. I like the Greek World scenario but the 5 yr increments are pfft .. i want 1 yr turns or even 6 month turns make it more realistic .. someone rebalance build times / research times on that ok :p
 
"Maximize commerce", Krikkitone? Here I'm gettin' all ready to whomp squishy meleers, and you're playing Picard to my Worf. Or something.

>sigh< You have a point though, as does everyone else who's pointing out that my workers need to show some love to my other cities. I do have two workers on their way to Guangzhou, honest. And the one in the jungle east of Beijing is supposed to build not just a road to my next city in the east, but also another cottage. It is on a river, after all.

Besides, while I have snagged a couple of very expensive and valuable techs, a recent pop-up indicated that I am woefully behind in tech. So I need commerce to compensate. Not to mention that run on Metal Casting drained the treasury.

And besides, I want Shanghai to build a workboat for the clams, then a forge, then the Colossus. More commerce! And yeah, I really want to rush a settler out east to keep those horses away from Huayna if I can. And yes, it would be best if he build the Buddhist shrine before I take his holy city from him.

So I will curb my warmongering instincts for a while and work on improving my other cities and my overall economy. And yes, another workboat or galley to explore that landmass to the northeast would be a good idea too. Thracian might build that, since Shanghai is going to be busy.

But when the Colossus is finished, I'm takin' names and kickin' tail. :ar15:
 
LUCKY

Though you could see in MamboJoel's screenshot that the Iron was there.

Get some intel on Huayna and Julius. The former seems the better primary target (by being more of a threat later on, but also by building and working more Cottages than the latter would). Praets are merely wannabe Maces, and neither are going to be superior to CKNs. Just get them out early (and make sure to mix a few Combat ones in with all the Drill guys). Your biggest problems will be enemy Horse Archers and the eventual Longbows, beyond that ever annoying cultural defense.

And you're not really that far behind in tech. Those messages value quantity over quality, to an extent. You could easily outpace the AI as you research the next couple of techs while they chew on a few of the harder ones (which you'll be using GP assistance for, I assume).

EDIT: The "LUCKY" statement is in regards to the slingshot. I'm glad you met success with it.

PS: Funny that you mention ST: TNG. I happened to catch a portion of an old performance of Oedipus Rex earlier, and couldn't for the life of me deduce that one of the actors was a young Patrick Stewart (SP?). He really changed a lot between then and ST: TNG, beyond losing a full head of hair.

Though a more apt analogy would be Krikk playing a Ferengi to your Klingon (Quark:Worf, perhaps, from the later ST: DS9 episodes, though Worf was never really the most aggressive of Klingons; even Tasha Yar seemed to have a greater passion for violence).
 
Nares said:
LUCKY

Though you could see in MamboJoel's screenshot that the Iron was there.
I didn't look at the screenshot. As soon as I read about two or three sentences of his post, I realized it contained spoilers. So I stopped reading and did not look at the screenshot. Scout's honour. So the "lucky" statement applies to both the slingshot AND the location of iron. Not to mention the goody hut for AH, the barb city that's now mine, an ideal starting location for a financial civ...

Nares said:
Get some intel on Huayna and Julius. The former seems the better primary target (by being more of a threat later on, but also by building and working more Cottages than the latter would). Praets are merely wannabe Maces, and neither are going to be superior to CKNs. Just get them out early (and make sure to mix a few Combat ones in with all the Drill guys). Your biggest problems will be enemy Horse Archers and the eventual Longbows, beyond that ever annoying cultural defense.
Will do, hence the open borders. I have a Scout in the North who will now move down south to prowl around while I build up my economy. I should probably build a second Scout and send one southwest and the other southeast.

You may be right about going after Huayna first. I really suspect he's going to beat me to the horses to my east, in which case it makes sense to go after him, especially if he's built the Buddhist shrine by the time I have a stack of a half dozen CKNs ready to go.

Speaking of stacks. Given that mine will largely consist of CKNs, what else should be in there? I usually like to include a Combat I/Medic I Spearman, and given CKNs vulnerability to mounted units, including one or two spears makes a lot of sense. Should I also include some City Raider I/II Axemen for the toughest city defenders? I already have one or two of those, do I need more? And how big a priority should catapults be? CKNs can cause collateral damage, but they can't reduce city defenses, which will be more built up the longer I delay an attack.

Nares said:
And you're not really that far behind in tech. Those messages value quantity over quality, to an extent. You could easily outpace the AI as you research the next couple of techs while they chew on a few of the harder ones (which you'll be using GP assistance for, I assume).
Since you bring it up, what should my tech path be? I have a GP sleeping in Beijing who can pop for a tech at a moment's notice. Right now it would be meditation, so I'm researching that, then Monotheism. I don't have Masonry, should I get that out of the way too? Should I instead jump back to Writing, then Alphabet, and see what I can trade for?

Nares said:
PS: Funny that you mention ST: TNG. I happened to catch a portion of an old performance of Oedipus Rex earlier, and couldn't for the life of me deduce that one of the actors was a young Patrick Stewart (SP?). He really changed a lot between then and ST: TNG, beyond losing a full head of hair.

Though a more apt analogy would be Krikk playing a Ferengi to your Klingon (Quark:Worf, perhaps, from the later ST: DS9 episodes, though Worf was never really the most aggressive of Klingons; even Tasha Yar seemed to have a greater passion for violence).
Stewart is also in several episodes of I, Claudius, though it looks like he's got a toupee in that one. And has a bit part in that terrible first Dune movie.

Yes, the Ferengi metaphor occurred to me as well, though Tasha was only around briefly.

OFF TOPIC ALERT! We better quit while we're ahead.
 
Sisiutil said:
Speaking of stacks. Given that mine will largely consist of CKNs, what else should be in there? I usually like to include a Combat I/Medic I Spearman, and given CKNs vulnerability to mounted units, including one or two spears makes a lot of sense. Should I also include some City Raider I/II Axemen for the toughest city defenders? I already have one or two of those, do I need more? And how big a priority should catapults be? CKNs can cause collateral damage, but they can't reduce city defenses, which will be more built up the longer I delay an attack.

Definitely bring a spearman or two.

I don't think axemen add a whole lot of value here. Your Cho-Ko-Nu's get the same 50% vs. melee with a higher base strength plus collateral damage and 2 first strikes. City Raider I will bring the axemen up to 6.5 strength which is barely better than the 6 base strength of the Cho-Ko-Nu's, so we'll consider that a more or less even comparison (City Raider I axeman vs. unpromoted Cho-Ko-Nu). I don't feel like doing the math, but I can't see how City Raider II is going to make up for collateral damage, 2 first strikes, plus the two promotions you can give to all of your barracks/Theology enabled Cho-Ko-Nu's.

Maybe mix in a horseman for pillaging, and definitely bring a defender or two for any cities you plan to keep, but really the whole point of this line of research was that the Cho-Ko-Nu's will have an overwhelming advantage. Use it. Build lots of them, and let's get to fighting!

For the same reason, I'm not sure I understand the rationale behind maximizing research and waiting for Code of Laws, Civil Service, etc. before you start the wars. You just took a bunch of risks and spent a number of turns on a plan to get your unique unit early. Now you're going to wait? Then why did you race for Machinery? Let's get to fighting!

I do think catapults would be worthwhile at some point, but you might not need to build enough to support suicide techniques. Make enough to take down city defenses (4 with Accuracy or 7 without), and there you go. Let the Cho-Ko-Nu's do the rest.
 
Sisiutil said:
Not to mention the goody hut for AH, the barb city that's now mine, an ideal starting location for a financial civ...

The city and the tech spawn are variable. I seem to be stuck discovering Hunting, if any techs at all, from huts in these games (yes, I've played a bit of this one, and again got Hunting).

Sisiutil said:
You may be right about going after Huayna first. I really suspect he's going to beat me to the horses to my east, in which case it makes sense to go after him, especially if he's built the Buddhist shrine by the time I have a stack of a half dozen CKNs ready to go.

I wouldn't worry about the shrine. It's not as though the Financial trait enhances the gold produced by a city, but only the gold produced by a tile. Besides, if you're choosing Theocracy over Vassalage, you won't be running OrgRel to help spread your religion (mixed opinion here, Vass is overall better IMO with its free units, but you want the speed of GP research for Theology).

I think Huayna will have enough Cottages up now that you'll be conquering a mixture of Hamlets/Villages. Additionally, this gives Julius a bit more time to build some wonders for you (most of the upcoming wonders can be randomly placed, besides the Great Library).

On the bright side, it appears the only sources of Horse are near you, so even if you lose the source in the east to Huayna, you can always pick it up (or the one Julius has should you attack him) fairly quickly, forcing them to Longbows. You might want to actually consider attacking the one who appears furthest from Longbows (see below).

Sisiutil said:
Speaking of stacks. Given that mine will largely consist of CKNs, what else should be in there? I usually like to include a Combat I/Medic I Spearman, and given CKNs vulnerability to mounted units, including one or two spears makes a lot of sense. Should I also include some City Raider I/II Axemen for the toughest city defenders? I already have one or two of those, do I need more? And how big a priority should catapults be? CKNs can cause collateral damage, but they can't reduce city defenses, which will be more built up the longer I delay an attack.

Well, the real bain of CKN assaults is Longbows (sorry if I suggested otherwise, but these should actually appear soon enough that you'll come to understand this too). Horse Archers don't receive defensive boni, making them poor city defenders, though they're by far the best unit to take out your CKNs in the open field. Also, as I pointed out before, it seems you can cut off the HAs fairly early (which pretty much guarantees an AI beeline to Feudalism).

The only problem with CR Axemen is that they're not all that much more powerful than CKN until after some promotions. Additionally, I forget how prevalent Drill is in more modern units, but Drill IV is wicked, and you'll probably want to get a little more out of the CKNs in this war in terms of experience. Besides, there's always Macemen to work with later when you move on the other opponent. I really think you could put extreme military pressure on the both of them without blinking, and hold the majority of the continent before entering the Renaissance era.

Sisiutil said:
Since you bring it up, what should my tech path be? I have a GP sleeping in Beijing who can pop for a tech at a moment's notice. Right now it would be meditation, so I'm researching that, then Monotheism. I don't have Masonry, should I get that out of the way too? Should I instead jump back to Writing, then Alphabet, and see what I can trade for?

What do you want to get next? I haven't checked your save, so I don't know what's still available. It would seem to me that you have a greater chance of getting Christianity than Confuscianism, though with Judaism out there (it was discovered, right?), both are at risk. I'd say gauge your chances of discovering either, and decide from there if you're using the GP for Theology or partial Civil Service.

You'll want Mathematics soon enough, since you need to grab Currency (powerful, but I don't think you'll get the Markets up until after an early war) and Construction (I think you'll only need the four Catapaults on the 40% capital, but the War Elephants would be awesome, especially to force Spearman/Pikeman construction in the other AI, just make sure to parade them along or inside its borders). And, of course, you need those Courthouses sooner rather than later. Combined with the GP you have on ice, I'd probably go for CoL->GP assisted CS, use Beauracracy to help churn out those military units, take down Huayna and then work on getting one of the two XP generators.

The other drawback to Theocracy is that it needs to be present in any city producing units for it to have an effect. I'd personally skip switching to OrgRel at this point for two reasons: 1) it requires anarchy (which you would incure with CS, so you could time the two civic changes together, but...), and 2) it requires you to build Missionaries, which I wouldn't do, in favor of building more CKNs. The time wasted working on making Theocracy worthwhile (between the civic change, lost production on Missionaries, and lost time due to research) would certainly enable either AI opponent to research to Feudalism (a tech most AIs prioritize if they feel threatened, which they should now that you're about to tear apart their power ratings).

The real thing to keep in mind at this point is getting roads built towards your opponents.

EDIT: I may streamline this later. Gotta go see The DaVinci Code.
 
Sisiutil said:
Since you bring it up, what should my tech path be? I have a GP sleeping in Beijing who can pop for a tech at a moment's notice. Right now it would be meditation, so I'm researching that, then Monotheism. I don't have Masonry, should I get that out of the way too?

If you don't have Masonry, you ain't getting Monotheism. When you finish Meditation, I believe Moses will offer you Monarchy. If you finish Meditation and Writing, Moses will score you Code of Laws.

Metal Casting is good trade bait, so Writing->Alphabet might make sense while you still have two civs to trade with that have not yet felt the bite of Cho ko nu.
 
Code of Laws might not be a bad thing for you to get with your GP. By the time you start to go after your opponents, you'll want courthouses to keep the upkeep from nerfing your Science...
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
If you don't have Masonry, you ain't getting Monotheism. When you finish Meditation, I believe Moses will offer you Monarchy. If you finish Meditation and Writing, Moses will score you Code of Laws.

In that Case, go with That. Maximize Commrce until you have Writing (after Meditation) the Prophet Code of Laws, and then maximize production and go full bore CKNs.

OK CKNs v. various City defenders... assume Fortified, 20% culture bonus... also against unit in Field
CKN at 6
Archers: 5.85: 3
Axe: 4.75: 3.33
Sword: 5.7: 4
Prat: 7.6: 5.33
Chariot: 4: 4
HA: 6 :6

So in the Field, HA are the only thing to Fear so a spear or two... for Hitting a city, Prats are Worst followed by Swords/Archers/Horse Archers

Archers being the ones most likely to be found.

so a few City Raider Axes would be good.

I wouldn't wait for Cats but Start Attacking while going for them.

So
Meditation->Writing-> pop CoL*->Masonry->Math->Construction... after that it depends on what religions have already been founded, and if you want to keep going for them.

*Start attacking at this point or earlier... Clear the Continent
 
Round 4: to 900 AD

Yeah, a lot of turns this round. It took a while to get the war machine lurching along; CKNs are 60 hammers each, compared to 35 for Axemen, you see.

Based on some of the advice I recieved here, I did change a few things from the get-go. I switched back to researching Writing, adjusted Guangzhou's tile assignments, and started building a Settler in Beijing. But I continued building the CKNs, mainly because they were going to take a while.

My Scout made his way into Incan territory:

ALC-Qin_04_01.jpg


Turns out Julius and Huayana both have stone and have therefore gone crazy building walls. I'm gonna need Catapults before too long.

Unfortunately, Huayna did indeed beat me to that spot by the horses, the jerk:

ALC-Qin_04_02.jpg


All the more reason to kill him. I wound up using the Settler one tile east of where the second barb city used to be. Not a great location--very few resources--but several river/grassland tiles beneath the jungles for cottages, and a few grassland hills and forests for production. Not a bad, average, multi-purpose city site, and the only place I could expand to without going to war.

I also quickly built a fog-busting Archer in Thracian and sent him north to the desert hill. I doubt I'll be building a city up there anytime soon, if ever, and the way the barbs have been setting up shop, I figured a fog-buster was a good idea. I'm done conquering barb cities. I don't have the time for the distraction.

Along the way, I built another Wonder:

ALC-Qin_04_03.jpg


Which made sense now that I had three coastal cities and am planning on conquering several more before Astronomy.

I researched Alphabet after Writing, then went tech-trading. VoR, you were bang-on regarding the desireability of Metal Casting. Check out this trade:

ALC-Qin_04_04.jpg


Wow, one-stop shopping! I researched Monotheism quickly after that. I decided to go after Theology since (a) I was planning a war soon, (b) Confucianism got founded somewhere else, and (c) I wanted to run Organized Religion for a while to spread Buddhism before switching to Theocracy. The way the CKNs were taking their sweet time getting built, I had some turns available for all that.

So a few turns later, I woke up my Great Prophet, and...

ALC-Qin_04_05.jpg


I did not convert, however. Ceasar was now a Buddhist as well, and I needed relations with him to stay stable while I went after Huayna. I did NOT need the -4 "heathen religion" demerit, on top of "our close borders cause tensions".

Before I got Sailing from that poor sap Huayna, I built a plucky little workboat to explore the land mass to my northeast. It's a smaller continent than the one I'm on, with only one civ on it, and a very convenient one at that:

ALC-Qin_04_06.jpg


Of course Mansa loves to tech trade, but check out the score table: he's languishing at the bottom. You wanna build Crossbowmen on your lonely little island, dude? Go crazy.

And notice I did NOT give him Alphabet. In fact, the last time I checked, I was still the only civ with it. All tech trades have to go through me!

I finally got enough of a stack together to venture forth: 4 CKNs with Drill I, a CRII Axe, and a Combat I Spear in search of a Medic I promotion. I sent them off to that annoying city by the horses:

ALC-Qin_04_07.jpg


I gotta say, they did an admirable job. That city was on a hill and contained two Archers and three Axemen. It certainly helped that it had 0% cultural defense. I lost the first CKN--the "forlorn hope", as it were--but all the others survived thanks to the collateral damage he did. They all picked up their 2nd drill promotions, the Axe made it to CRIII, and even the Spearman took out the last Archer and got his Medic I! I captured a couple more workers too. Sweet!

And I wasn't done. Once they were done healing and a City Garrison I CKN showed up to make the city safe, the stack went south:

ALC-Qin_04_08.jpg


I have kept both cities, mainly because they have access to a number of nearby resources, and the maintenance costs are not onerous as of yet. The stack is pausing in Yayoi to take in the sights, such as they are. All of Qin's other cities have walls, so I'm waiting for my stack of 4 Accuracy-promoted Catapults to show up before continuing.

Meanwhile, I researched CoL, scored another GP, and burned him for help with Civil Service. So thanks to the Machinery slingshot, I now have access to Macemen. So much for sweating about those Praetorians and Longbows (haven't seen the latter yet). Once I have my Cats and a couple of War Elephants, it's Macemen, Macemen, Macemen and a few more CKNs as needed.

I suspect, after reading through the posts, that I didn't follow the most efficient path to where I am. Still, I'm pretty happy and confident. I feel certain that with the Cats on the way and Macemen to follow, I'll be able to take the rest of my continent. Huayna has built Buddhism's shrine, and I will enjoy relieving him of it. I'm building the Great Library in Beijing and, with a couple of chops, feel pretty confident that I'll get it.

Finally, I have more than one Level 4 unit, so I'll be building Heroic Epic soon. I'm torn between putting it in Thracian or Shanghai. Both are good production cities, Shanghai having an edge. But remember in the Mao thread I said that your best production city doesn't really need HE to quickly pump out military units, and you usually need to divert its production from units to Wonders. So I'm leaning towards Thracian for HE and, later, West Point. Shanghai will eventually get Ironworks, unless one of the captured cities is stellar for production.

Here's the big map:

ALC-Qin_04_10.jpg


And another shot, closer in, of Incan and Roman territory to my south:

ALC-Qin_04_11.jpg


There is another Incan city due south of Yayoi and west of Machu Pichou. That's probably my next target. I'll decide whether to keep it or raze it when I get there.

I am on top in terms of power now, and I intend to stay that way:

ALC-Qin_04_12.jpg


Once I have CRII Macemen, I expect that puppy to jump up even higher.

As for the Incan campaign, the first two cities were relatively easy: lightly defended, no walls, no cultural defenses. You can see that the remaining cities are Huayna's core ones, and will therefore be much better defended. Hence the wait for the Cats. I may pull up to one and realize I have to wait for Macemen too, in which case I may busy myself with pillaging.

My overall plan is to keep the stack together instead of splitting it up, given how Huayna's cities are laid out. I'll go south to the desert city first, then east to MP, then fight my way southeast to those two ridiculously-close cities down there before swinging back west to finish HC off. Then the stack will likely keep going into Roman territory, especially since the capital is so conveniently close to the last Incan city. By then I should have a stack towering with heavily-promoted Macemen, Pikemen, and CKNs.

I am currently researching Monarchy and plan to switch to Hereditary Rule when happiness in my cities starts to become an issue. Then it's on to Feudalism for Vassalage's extra XPs and free units as well as Longbowmen. I prefer building the CKNs for Drill promotions and attack rather than city defense, and Feudalism gives me access to an excellent city defender.

As always, I appreciate your thoughts. Here is the saved game file:
 
I wonder if it's possible to close your border to Mansa in order to prevent him from coming down and settling your continent (not that he won't take your north if you just leave it fog busted).
 
Sisiutil said:
Finally, I have more than one Level 4 unit, so I'll be building Heroic Epic soon. I'm torn between putting it in Thracian or Shanghai. Both are good production cities, Shanghai having an edge. But remember in the Mao thread I said that your best production city doesn't really need HE to quickly pump out military units, and you usually need to divert its production from units to Wonders. So I'm leaning towards Thracian for HE and, later, West Point. Shanghai will eventually get Ironworks, unless one of the captured cities is stellar for production.

Ironworks in Shanghai would likely be a dreadful error. As far as production goes, Shanghai is about 2/3 of a city - it needs too many farms to be a good ironworks candidate. Your top three production cities (once you've gotten into the industrial era) look to be Beijing, Humanga, and Yayoi. I'd probably choose Yayoi, as I think it's the city which can run the extra specialist engineers.
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
Ironworks in Shanghai would likely be a dreadful error. As far as production goes, Shanghai is about 2/3 of a city - it needs too many farms to be a good ironworks candidate. Your top three production cities (once you've gotten into the industrial era) look to be Beijing, Humanga, and Yayoi. I'd probably choose Yayoi, as I think it's the city which can run the extra specialist engineers.
Interesting--you're valuing food over hammers for Ironworks in order to maximize the Engineer specialists. Never thought of it that way before. (With a Forge, Factory, and IW, you can run up to 6 Engineers; 7 if you run Mercantilism or build the Statue of Liberty for a free specialist.)

I thought you were nuts for a moment, because I looked at Yayoi and saw no hills, just a bunch of food resources: cow, banana, wheat. That's when I clued in to where you were going with this.

Taking this into consideration, I myself would lean towards Humanga, just because the horse and two grassland hills will provide tile-based production, while the rice and all the grasslands will provide food for specialists. I like that balance, and it provides more tile hammers for IW to multiply. But I'll see what the cities look like come the Industrial era.
 
as for the National Wonders, Now it the time to decide what Victory Condition

If Cultural you need to make a GA farm and pick your 2 other best potential Commerce cities

GA farm should be planned to get National Epic and Globe Theater, and Sistine (and any other Artist wonders)

Then get a Military City...HE+WP

Then get a Wonder City.. IW and Other Wonders

Then a Science City..Oxford..high Commerce

I can see a few ways of doing it.. basically two main options
1. IW+Oxford in Bejing.. which probably has your Highest easily reachable production... put all 'Other Wonders' here
and
2. National Epic+Globe Theater + Artist Wonders (and ~5 Artists) in Huamonga


OR.. (what I'd probably do)

1. National Epic+Globe and All Artist Wonders in Bejing (with Calendar, you have the Food to Run 5 Artists)

2. Oxford in Huamonga

3. 'Other Wonders' in best OTHER production City that is not H.E.

4. IW... not a high priority... decide where to put it when you get it (may be a city you don't own now)



Tech Path: (assuming Cultural)
Monarchy->Drama->Music
Philosophy, either with GS if Taoism hasn't been Founded, or self-Research if no scientist soon enough
DR, either with Prophet if Islam hasn't been Founded or self-Research for Versailles

Then probably
->Liberalism
->Democracy* needed for good spamming


after that, depends.
Once you Clear the Continent, It Might be worth going to Pacifism then FreeRel as opposed to OrgRel then FreeRel, allow you to maximize those Wonders for a While.
 
Sisiutil said:
Interesting--you're valuing food over hammers for Ironworks in order to maximize the Engineer specialists. Never thought of it that way before. (With a Forge, Factory, and IW, you can run up to 6 Engineers; 7 if you run Mercantilism or build the Statue of Liberty for a free specialist.)

No. Free specialists can only occupy a slot already permitted by a building/Caste System. Otherwise, your free specialist turns out to be a citizen.

I thought you were nuts for a moment, because I looked at Yayoi and saw no hills, just a bunch of food resources: cow, banana, wheat. That's when I clued in to where you were going with this.

No, I'm not really going that way either. I'm going to Police State.

Production, particularly Industrial production (remember, we are talking Ironworks here, which is enabled by Steel), comes from Mines, Lumbermills, Watermills and Workshops.

A boring grassland tile generates three Hammers when you drop a Workshop on it (if you are using the Police State civic, which I'm very fond of). So a city completely surrounded by boring grassland generates 60 hammers from worked tiles, a single hammer from the city tile, and the two extra food from the city tile allow you to run an engineer for two more hammers. 63 hammers total, using 42 food (two from the city, two from each grassland tile).

Now, suppose you replace two of those workshops with watermills. Each watermill gives up a hammer to get another food; so 58 hammers from worked tiles, another from the city, but with the extra food you can run two engineers. Again, you have 63 hammers, but using 44 food.

The upside of Engineer specialists is that they give you a way to convert 2 extra food into 2 extra hammers.

So the perfect situation for the Ironworks is a city with lots of production and a huge food surplus... A production city with 48 - 52 food is about right (you can get by with more than that if you control the Angkor Wat), depending on how many free specialists you are allowed.

Turning that around... if you see part of the benefit of the Ironworks being the Great Engineer points, then you'll want to put it in a city where you can run the specialist engineers without sacrificing production. Farms, alas, sacrifice production - one hammer per farm - so that isn't the answer. The other alternative is converting Workshops to Watermills.

So what I'm looking at is really (a) the number of improvable tiles with two or more base production (be it food or hammers), and (b) the presence of river segments which can be watermilled.
 
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