ALC Game #3: China/Qin

[Gnarfflinger]

A possibility that I'm curious about:

What if you sent a stack to declare war on MM, left his cities alone, but pillaged his cottages and resources? Would he cough up a tech or two to get you to leave him alone? Would that slow him down enough for you to catch him?

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 6: to 1700 AD

Hmmm, this is probably the most challenging game I've ever faced while playing as a Financial civ. I'm really not sure which victory type to pursue at this point, because I'm not sure which one I have the best shot at.

First things first: the recap.

Since I was still feeling nervous about falling behind on techs, I paid a visit to Mansa and Huayna just to see if I could trade for anything. Nope, nada. Seeing that Huayna was, against all odds, "Pleased" with me, out of desperation, I selected Compass and clicked on "Could you spare this for a friend?" Yeah, right. I mean, I declared war on the guy, took two of his cities, and...

"Always glad to lend a hand!"

My jaw hit the keyboard and I think, as a result, I sent a Christian Missionary to build a road to Timbuktu. I wish I had a screenshot, but I didn't take one as I was so sure it wouldn't work. I considered reloading the most recent autosave to capture it, but I got too nervous that he wouldn't go for it a second time.

Sharing the same religion, apparently, can really pay off.

Meanwhile, Roman cities continued to fall, until the Roman empire was, finally, no more:

Then some of the other Civs started to show up:

I did spend a few turns before going after Huayna. I wasn't really going into build mode, I was just waiting for most of my units to heal in Rome. But yeah, I also took some production cycles to build infrastructure.

The war against Huayna went quite well. I razed five cities and kept three. Normally I would have kept Machu Pichou for a 4/4 split, but decided to follow VoR's suggestion to resettle a new city one tile west. Most of the other cities were in the tundra or the desert.

I'm sorry to say that my Level 6 Cho-Ko-Nu, "Killer", finally kicked the bucket in the assault on Cuzco:

I'd been using him for "janitor" duty, cleaning up injured units at the end of the assault up to this point. But this time, I had to use him for that collateral damage he could do. The odds weren't bad, but it was the city's location on a hill that tipped the balance. Rest in peace, l'il buddy. >sniff<

And that wasn't the only city I conquered. Awdaghost finally flipped, and to keep Mansa from trying it again, I kept it, lousy little burg that it is:

Looking at the screenshot, I realize that I should have disbanded it, then rebuilt one tile east to get the grassland and cow tiles. Oh well, live and learn.

Now if you look carefully at that screenshot again, on the right, you'll notice something interesting: an Incan city, on the Malinese continent! Once I took the last Incan city on my continent, I decided to end the war. I'm not ready for an amphibious invasion of anyone, and war weariness was getting unmanageable.

Fortunately, Huayna was willing to part with several choice techs:

The only tech I had on everyone else at this point was Chemistry. Yes, several Grenadiers made the difference in the final assaults on Cuzco and Ollantaytambo. (Yeesh, what a name--I'll probably change that one.) Anyway, I shopped it around a bit, since the other Civs were likely to research it on their own. Bismarck was very agreeable:

Asoka apparently already had Chemistry by then, but since he also has Astronomy, he was very willing to do some trading of resources. So I have access to Dye now, which is handy since I'm planning on building some theatres.

So here's how the map looks in 1700 AD. The continent is mine, all mine...well, except for ANOTHER little city that squatter Mansa has inflicted on me down south:

I had a fog-busting Pikeman down there, and when I saw Mansa land his Settler, I ran him to the next tile to pillage an iron mine. Just out of spite. Yes, I can be petty when the mood hits me.

Tech-wise, I have my work cut out for me:

It isn't just Mansa I have to worry about now, it's EVERYONE. Steel is the only tech I have on most of them, and that won't last long. Should I shop it around to see what I can get for it, or hang on to it?

I should add that while I was warmongering I got beating to several things I'm used to getting: Liberalism (obviously), circumnavigation, and several Wonders. Here I am Financial and Industrious, and I'm playing like I'm Genghis.

Well, on the bright side, the continent is pretty much mine, and I have a big empire of 16 (soon to be 18) cities:

Speaking of which--one city will go 1W of where MP used to be, but what about the other one? There's space between Neapolis and Rome, and between Yayoi and Tiwanaku. Or should I rush a city down to the ice south of Tiwanaku to deter Mansa from putting another city there, and fill in the holes I just listed after that? There is some silver and some iron down there, and a fish tile, so it won't totally suck.

And what about victory conditions? I have a sinking feeling I've left cultural far too long and lost out on too many valuable Wonders, but for anything else I'll have to do a lot of catching up tech-wise. Even domination is very risky since we're now talking about more than one continental invasion. Nevertheless, war is the one area in this particular game where I've been superior to the AI. Perhaps I should keep playing to that strength:

I wouldn't be surprised if this one plays out to one of those diplomatic wins by way of conquest--where I'm a little short of land mass or population or both, but build the UN because I have just enough votes to get a diplomatic win.

Here's the saved game:

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Normally I would have kept Machu Pichou for a 4/4 split, but decided to follow VoR's suggestion to resettle a new city one tile west. Most of the other cities were in the tundra or the desert

Woohoo - I rule.

OK, my assessment: Space Race is in the bag, if you do you development properly right now, and can manage to avoid further wars. You have a lot more land than everybody, which will shortly mean a lot more towns than anybody, and once you reach a point where you are building the big ship parts, you'll be able to change over a few cities to get the production you'll need.

Here's my take: Yayoi is wrong for Ironworks. Either Rome or Cuzco is the right choice.

Immediatel priorities: (1) making sure you have the number of monasteries you need in the locations you need; (2) Emancipation; (3) Biology; (4) State Property.

You can simply stick cottages everywhere, but a number of your cities have the happy and health they need to grow. So you might consider farming them, then turning the population way up, then dumping everybody on cottages again.

(Sidebar: dude, you need to team your workers - even pairing your workers gets you half your improvements sooner)

You've got a number of improvements that you should think about tearing down. You don't need so many elephant camps - put up some cottages. You don't need so much sugar. Put up some cottages. etc.

I think your economy is getting a bit bogged down by your cities. So geting New Machu Picchu settled looks reasonable, but I'd park the other settlers on your sites until you are ready/until you see another settler wandering into your turf.

Yes, I'd swap steel around aggressively.

Nat Epic to NMP or to Olly Olly outs in free. Note that Olly Olly can have the fish, but those livestock belong to the Cuzco mega production complex.

 

[aelf]

Wow, you've really had incredible luck so far. First it's the Machinery slingshot, then getting Christianity, then getting Huayna to give you a tech after you attacked him and then getting so many decent techs from him after he's down to one city. Or is just prince?

I have a mind to try Qin next. Finally trying Financial again. I wonder if I'll be half as lucky as you on emperor.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Oh, one thing that I used to know, and know again now, but had forgotten recently:

Floodplains are an overlay - like forrests. So they go away when you put a city on them. Which means that putting New Machu Picchu on a floodplain doesn't give you an extra food on the city tile. So my earlier comment to that effect?

I still think the city is stronger in the new position.

 

[Nares]

Ok, my turn.

Somebody asked about Natural Religious Spread, and so I went digging into the SDK. For religion to spread to a city, it must have no religion present (as you noted), and it must be connected to the Holy City.

Connected means by routes, rivers, or terrain (coast/ocean). Terrain connections require the techs that unlock them, either researched by the person who controls the target city OR by the person who controls the holy city.

What I had misunderstood was the importance of cultural borders; I had thought that trade routes could only pass through open borders - but as you pointed out, that's not necessary. As long as you have some connection to the other city that isn't blocked by a war, you are good to go.

Distance is definitely a part of it - see the link above for the references to the relevant parts of the SDK.

I have to admit I have not searched through the SDK at all, and was going on primary information provided by others (maybe it wasn't explained clearly enough, but, more likely, I didn't really pay enough attention or something along those lines).

Still, that doesn't mean there's no chance for Islam to spread from Mansa's island. The chance is just mostly based on the religon list from the XML. I wonder if it would be possible to edit it for more random goodness.

Wow, you've really had incredible luck so far. First it's the Machinery slingshot, then getting Christianity, then getting Huayna to give you a tech after you attacked him and then getting so many decent techs from him after he's down to one city. Or is just prince?

The Machinery slingshot was pretty lucky. It is, I'm almost 100% positive, dependent on things such as Barbarian interference. But Sisiutil seems to pull off some long shot odds (particularly in the wonder department). And no, I don't think what went on in this game would transfer well to higher difficulties. The Oracle would need to be used for Metal Casting or Code of Laws. A GE or GP would be needed for Machinery or CS. I think, if given this start on a higher difficulty level, you'd have the same room to expand (all that Jungle provides a good natural buffer, presumably even against higher difficulty AIs), but, given that you need to build the majority of your cities here (in the early game, at least), you're bound to fall pretty far behind the AI.

 

[Eggolas]

Wow, you've really had incredible luck so far. First it's the Machinery slingshot, then getting Christianity, then getting Huayna to give you a tech after you attacked him and then getting so many decent techs from him after he's down to one city. Or is just prince?

I have a mind to try Qin next. Finally trying Financial again. I wonder if I'll be half as lucky as you on emperor.

I had Hatty down to one city and a horde of samurai next to her last city. She still refused to give up even one tech! So, I killed her.

Monarch level.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well It does look too late for a good Cultural (especially if you lost out all those nize cultural Wonders..Taj ND and Sistine)
so I'd go Space Race
Domination would be an option if you can split the IndoGerman friendship, but I doubt it.. those power rankings and common religion are very problematic.

Space Race means

1. National Epic in Bejing (with Oxford) if it isn't already placed.. GS go to Academies at all high Commerce Spots
2. You don't need to worry about any more religions (Monastery Science Bonus will be gone soon enough), just spread your Holy ones (and build those Monasteries)
3. Shop out Steel
4. Cottage Spam
5. Free yourself (Free Speech, Religion, and Trade, Emancipation and Universal Suffrage)..Open Borders for Trade Routes and to allow other missionaries to come in to make you happy

You should be able to come Back, the only other Financial Civ is your little brother MM, the one other Civ was probably eaten by the IndoGerman Aryan alliance, I'd work at using MM as a Tech Trading Partner and ally

So Tech Priorities are
1. Government (Democracy, Liberalism, and Economics)
2. Artillery/Rocketry (Military and the start of the Space Race)
3. Computers (for the 'hits' on the way)

Building Priorities are Granaries+Cheap Forges+Science buildings (only build Markets/Grocers in Holy Cities or Cities who need the Health/Happiness boost.. same with Theaters, etc.)

You Might want to try a Internet Rush ... depending on how friendly you can keep the Aryan alliance(Since Internet path skips the war techs... SAMs and Artillery would be your only real Army)

But if you keep ahead in the power graph, you can probably buy off the others with your cultural resources.

 

[Sisiutil]

Woohoo - I rule.

Generally you do, but:

Nat Epic to NMP or to Olly Olly outs in free.

WTH???!?! Speak English, dude!

But I like the parking-the-Settler idea. I'm convinced the AI keeps Settlers sitting in its cities, ready to move into free territory at a moment's notice. No reason I can't do the same. It makes sense to delay too many more new cities until the Forbidden Palace is built, especially since they'll be close to it.

Speaking of national wonders: I need to get several of them in place quickly: FP, IW, NE. I'm waiting for Cuzco to finish its Courthouse so I can put FP there. That would delay Ironworks if it goes there--which is one reason why I decided to put IW in Yayoi. Also, I've been tailoring Yayoi for IW with several workshops and waterwheels. If I change the location of IW to Rome, I'm going to have to tear down some very lucrative cottages around that city. Putting it in Cuzco means either delaying it or FP. Or should FP go somewhere else? And is Ollantaytambo indeed the best candidate for a GP farm? Thoughts?

The Machinery slingshot was pretty lucky. It is, I'm almost 100% positive, dependent on things such as Barbarian interference. But Sisiutil seems to pull off some long shot odds (particularly in the wonder department). And no, I don't think what went on in this game would transfer well to higher difficulties. The Oracle would need to be used for Metal Casting or Code of Laws. A GE or GP would be needed for Machinery or CS. I think, if given this start on a higher difficulty level, you'd have the same room to expand (all that Jungle provides a good natural buffer, presumably even against higher difficulty AIs), but, given that you need to build the majority of your cities here (in the early game, at least), you're bound to fall pretty far behind the AI.

I totally agree, but would add that my success with the slingshot was probably a result of not just the low barb activity (a result of the geography--I imagine Caesar and Huayna had their hands full), but also the rare event of the other AIs not prioritizing it. I could probably play a Qin game 100 times and not repeat this one's early achievement, so I don't think the game is too instructive in that regard.

I am going to shop Steel around--in fact, I'm thinking I should try to jump on techs no one else has for awhile and trade them for the ones I lack to catch up, instead of researching the missing ones, which I'll be unable to trade. I'll see how that goes as a strategy. On a side note, I notice that I'm ahead on the tech tree's "southern track"; in other words, the Machinery slingshot is still paying dividends.

VoR, you're quite correct about teaming those workers. I'll start doing that. And to whoever it was who pointed out the elephant tiles still had jungle on them, thank you. I'll keep an eye out for that in the future--most improvements will clear out jungle or forest, obviously a camp is an exception.

Hmmm, another space ship win? It might make sense. Though I am gathering my veterans into Shanghai in case I feel the need to invade Mali. I'll have Astronomy and Galleons soon, after all. I'm tempted to try it just to see what techs I can extort from Mansa.

On the other hand, I've effectively had two very long wars that dragged on nearly to the industrial era. Normally I would have axe-rushed Huayna much earlier than I CKN-rushed him. The CKNs were useful, don't get me wrong, but the slingshot and their more expensive building cost delayed my early warmongering considerably. This is why I'm behind on tech right now--normally the early wars would have ended much sooner, and the period of infrastructure building that leads to that come-from-behind jump to the lead would have occurred long before this.

But I shouldn't complain. I have a whole continent practically to myself, and that's always a great situation to be in. My cottages are starting to mature, and my income and research are starting to climb back up. Gotta remember I'm Financial and leverage that.

EDIT: I posted about the same time as Krikkitone. I like those suggestions a lot, especially the very interesting one of an Internet rush for tech catch-up. It's very tempting if only to see if my luck holds. There are also a lot of techs on the path there that could be valuable for trading.

In previous games, I've found that the AI is generally more reluctant (though not completely averse) to attempt inter-continental invasions, especially if the target has a high power rating. Navies are often the key, I've found, to keeping other AIs away from a continent I own. The AI respects navies even if humans do not. And the threat of having to weave a vulnerable invasion force through a number of lying-in-wait warships is often enough to keep the AI at bay. So I may prioritize my navy over my land forces very soon. Railroads also become a priority, in order to be able to move land forces to an invasion site.

Anyway, I'll wait for your much-appreciated responses and advice, play another round, and post it tonight.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One thing about the internet is that the techs neglected are some key techs so adding something like Internet + RR+ Combustion (last two for Continental Defense) might be the best.


I'm beginning to think that Cultural really requires an axe rush to clear the continent, the CKNs are nice but really are best defensive (they shut down the units that get City Raider promotions, and do well for Stack defense, but aren't to good on actual city taking... given that CR axemen give better odds v. archers)

So a better idea for a CKN rush would actually be a CKN-backed axe rush. (some version of the Machinery slingshot While building up CR Axes...Then start invading the second you get one or 2 CKNs ready to go... and only produce a few of those ... like one for each city taken.. they can be left behind with city Garrison promotions to keep the City safe from just about everything, and with one or two of them and one or two spears, the Stack is safe)

Oh well option for another game.

 

[pigswill]

Don't jump to conclusions until you've explored the world ( and not even then).Meanwhile I've got up to 1710 in my shadow game; just got the continent to myself. Further ahead in tech than you at this point and thinking about space race. Problem is, while I'm not too bad in the early game (at prince level anyway), I'm hopeless at the later game, particuarly space race. I've read the thread on peaceful space race in the stratgey forum (including the handy hint on sabotaging the engine) but any other advice would be welcome.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

WTH???!?! Speak English, dude!

Sorry, but trying to talk about cities that you haven't renamed yet (or settled) is a pain. NMP = New Machu Picchu, Olly = Ollantaytambo.

It looks to me as though your best best for the National Epic will be to build it in New Machu Picch - you'll need to get some watermills in there to help with production until you have the pieces you need in place. But when all is said and done I think you'll be able to support 14 or 15 specialists there (assuming you can find solutions to the health and happy issues).

But Ollantaytambo is also going to be running a lot of specialists (7 specialists at size 10. Yow - go geddem, Lars).

I need to get several of them in place quickly: FP, IW, NE. I'm waiting for Cuzco to finish its Courthouse so I can put FP there. That would delay Ironworks if it goes there--which is one reason why I decided to put IW in Yayoi.

Long term convenience for short term tradeoff? I'm not sure I like those odds. Did you deliberately reject FP in Rome, IW in Cuzco?

One potentially issue with Cuzco is the presence of Ollantaytambo. For Cuzco to really kick burro as a production city, it will need to be using all 20 of its tiles, which doesn't leave Ollantaytambo with a lot of room. But up to that point, maybe they can share.

I am going to shop Steel around--in fact, I'm thinking I should try to jump on techs no one else has for awhile and trade them for the ones I lack to catch up, instead of researching the missing ones, which I'll be unable to trade.

Tech arbitraging. it can get old and repetitive (Sirian's comment: "there's no thinking"), but it's very effective.

Something to keep in mind - tech arbitraging really speeds up the game - you are essentially putting Mansa's cottages to work for you, and vice versa. I think that helps you here, because of your lead in territory (for instance, if you gave every civ all the techs, you'd have this in the bag because the other civs can't build the big techs in parallel the way you can).

Also, every trade you make is going to go against you (I'm sure the other civs are generous and all, but it's really tough to spend "unending gratitude"), so you need to be able to make multiple swaps (ie, more than once civ has a tech you want).

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: to 1850 AD

I'm a tech-tradin' fool.

No, seriously. Mansa Musa? The guy's a rank amateur. He can't touch me.

I turned my civ over to research in order to catch up tech-wise. I'm not completely there, but I'm close. It has helped that I started chasing some "unpopular" techs, which I was able to leverage for trades. To wit:

Yes, I met the the last remaining Civ, Victoria, who's hiding out on Bismarck's and Asoka's continent. Never figured her for a shrinking violet. I would have preferred Elizabeth--I have this thing for redheads, y'see--but if Vicky's willing to talk turkey, who am I to squabble?

At the end of it all, I'm doing all right:

I'm comparing myself to Asoka, my main competitor in terms of both technology and score. The good thing is he loves me to pieces now. He darn well should...he's up there on techs partly thanks to me. I think it's getting close to the time when I should cut him off. On the other hand, I'd really like Assembly Line so I can build the Pentagon...hmmm...

I should mention that none of my competitors have any GPT. They're giving it all to me for various resources, like cows, of which I have a plethora. I feel rather clever about all that.

I also managed to get back on track Wonder-wise:

Now for the National Wonders:

I built IW in Cuzco, converted the surrounding tiles to almost all waterwheels or workshops, and it's going strong. Built Scotland Yard in about six turns, will have Broadway done in nine--provided Asoka doesn't beat me to it. No big, I'm just building it because I can.

FP went in Rome, Oxford in Beijing, West Point just finished in Shanghai, National Epic is in Xian (the new, improved Machu Pichu and budding GP farm). I'm thinking of putting Wall Street in Beijing, or should it go in Cuzco? The latter has almost no cottages--it gets a good amount of gold from its shrine and little else, but still does very well. Shanghai has the other shrine but is also the HE/WP city and is too busy pumping out units to build it or any more commerce multipliers.

If you have a look at the saved game closely, please don't beat me up about Yayoi and Huamanga. Yes, I know they're unfocused rather than specialized as they should be. Yes, I know they should have all cottages or all production improvements, not a mix of both. But you know something?

IT'S YOUR DAMN FAULT THEY'RE LIKE THAT!!!

Put Ironworks here, put National Epic there, cottage spam, no, watermills, no, workshops, no, farms, and cottage your elephants... It's a wonder I can play this game at all what with all the contradictory advice!

Ah, well, at least I got most of the national wonders built, and in reasonably good spots.

Anyway, that's the good news. Now some bad news:

Of course all that infrastructure building has put me behind power-wise. Then again, I didn't have a lot of units worth building or upgrading to. Shanghai is now starting to produce CGII Riflemen for each city, Huamanga has nothing better to do so it's pumping Artillery, and I'm going to upgrade my Frigates to Destroyers now that I have uranium. (Note to self: stop some of those Workers from building railroads long enough to build some oil wells.) That should help the ol' power rating. I just hope it's not too little too late.

I'm thinking once I get WS built, and somehow get Assembly Line, that I should turn the slider down to 0% for a turn or two and go through a round of massive upgrades. Just to keep everyone off my back.

Not that they're cutting me any slack. Check the bottom of the map closely:

Look at that! I have one city on my continent for each remaining civ--well, none of Huayana's, but two of Mansa's as well. I should have kept all those lousy little Incan cities. Maybe I should have Xian spawn a bunch of Great Artists for culture bombs. I mean, I spend all that time, effort, and units clearing off the continent to have it all to myself and then this happens. Sheesh.

I'd love to go to war with each of them in turn and clean off the continent again, but given where I am in terms of military units and tech, that would be most unwise. I have a sinking feeling that either Vicky or Bismarck might declare war on me any turn now. The former is "cautious" and the latter is "pleased", but that doesn't mean much. Hence my possible money-raising for mass upgrades.

Anyway, it promises to be a rousing finish. I'm now rushing to research and build the Internet, can you believe it? Cuzco should have no problem building it. Frankly, I'd rather build it and glean the techs I'm missing that way than keep giving away the farm at this point.

As always, your comments are appreciated. The game save:

 

[Nares]

Despite worrying to the contrary, you're in a strong position. I think I would have put Forbidden Palace on Mansa's island, and switched the palace to somewhere in the center of your continent.

Speaking of Mansa, notice where he is? And where you are? Nice job on getting the most out of Steel. That was some crazy trading to bring you out of backwardness.

You may want to take a quick look at the diplomacy screen to try and figure out who Vicky wants to throw her troops at. At least Bismark and Asoka are powering up, suggesting that the three of them are probably none too friendly.

Basically, you can do what you want. Waiting for the AIs to discover Flight and begin airlifting units into those southern bases (assuming they're not at war with each other) wouldn't be a huge issue, but it would still be something to deal with in the opening stages of any war. Regardless, as I said, you're in a strong position, and I feel you could easily complete any victory but Cultural at this point (well, Conquest would probably run past Time, and Domination would be cutting it close).

I see a lot of discussion about the how's and why's of this game, but it's all in hindsight. I can't say I didn't push for certain tactics, but I would have expected people to raise reasonable arguments for or against anything earlier on in the game. I feel this was done to a far greater extent in ALC1, and hope to see a return of it in ALC4 (obviously the advice is there, just being given at the wrong time, ie way too late).

Anyway, good luck picking the next leader.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I built IW in Cuzco, converted the surrounding tiles to almost all waterwheels or workshops, and it's going strong. Built Scotland Yard in about six turns, will have Broadway done in nine

Whoa whoa whoa, you did what now?

FP went in Rome, Oxford in Beijing, West Point just finished in Shanghai, National Epic is in Xian (the new, improved Machu Pichu and budding GP farm). I'm thinking of putting Wall Street in Beijing, or should it go in Cuzco? The latter has almost no cottages--it gets a good amount of gold from its shrine and little else, but still does very well.

Well, it should go in Cuzco, because of the Shrine with some boost from the watermills. But that isn't an option anymore. You've already got your two national wonders in Cuzco.

Sidebar: Ironworks + Scotland Yard has very poor synergy. Ironworks usually means you are cranking out wonders, spaceship parts, or heavy military - so when are you going to take the time to build a spy? Granted, it will be quick and all....

Beijing might be a reasonable choice for Wall Street, especially if you pull the science slider back a bit - remember: money stops being useful when you are building ship parts. You want to spend it all on factories and laboratories, and you want that to happen before the Kremlin is obsolete, if you can manage that.

Edit: oh, have you considered a defense pact with Asoka?

 

[Killroyan]

So I assume you are going for a space victory? Already building the internet but are you lacking techs? Great game again. I wasn't certain about the jungle and the ivory but it doesn't give you the bonus right? Bah, lots of questions again. But the most important one is is the UU worth to build over swordmen/axemen? Keep them coming. These posts are the things I am looking out for.

 

[Nials]

So I assume you are going for a space victory? Already building the internet but are you lacking techs? Great game again. I wasn't certain about the jungle and the ivory but it doesn't give you the bonus right? Bah, lots of questions again. But the most important one is is the UU worth to build over swordmen/axemen? Keep them coming. These posts are the things I am looking out for.

Lurker's comment: A camp can be built on the Ivory but the Jungle will remain. You have to make sure you chop it.
Also, when building tile improvements on Jungle or Forest, always make sure you chop the Jungle first. That way, you get a few extra turns with an extra unit of food. If you simply build the improvement, both chopping and completion of the improvement completes on the same turn, not giving any food bonus.

But as I mentioned, Jungle/Forest will remain in case you build a camp.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Also, when building tile improvements on Jungle or Forest, always make sure you chop the Jungle first. That way, you get a few extra turns with an extra unit of food.

I always do that, but now that you've mentioned it, I'm starting to second guess myself. For jungle, you're absolutely right. If you chop first, you get a few more turns without the -1 food from jungle; however, there's no -1 food for forest. Forest gives +1 hammers. So if you chop first, although you do get the chop output sooner, you actually lose a few turns of +1 hammers.

What I'm thinking now is that if you're chopping the forest to finish a build, then you should chop first. That way you finish it sooner. On the other hand, if you're chopping to accelerate but not finish something, then you should just build the improvement and let the chopping happen automatically. That way you get the chopped hammers plus the extra hammer of forest production.

River tiles might alter the equation a bit in some situations, since forests take away the +1 river commerce. So if that extra commerce is going to matter a lot (ex. you're in a race to found an early religion), then maybe you want to chop first.

 

[vampy420]

I'd love to go to war with each of them in turn and clean off the continent again, but given where I am in terms of military units and tech, that would be most unwise. I have a sinking feeling that either Vicky or Bismarck might declare war on me any turn now. The former is "cautious" and the latter is "pleased", but that doesn't mean much. Hence my possible money-raising for mass upgrades.

From what I see you have more than enough forces to take care of what few defenders they have in those cities, and unless they get flight and start airlifting, the only way they can reinforce is by sea. You can watch those cites for force build up, but what I would do is crank out a bunch of destroyers (or submarines) to counter any potential invasion.

speaking of submarines .. they are way underpowered vs battleships.. they should get a bonus vs battleships.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well agreed, the Shrine should either go in Cuzco or Shanghai (Holy Cities).... but both of those used up thier positions. (unfortunately National Wonders are one of those that you can't make a mixed decision on.) So Wall Street should then go in either
1. The best Commerce City or
2. A city you will be running Merchant Specialists in


In any game there are some National Wonders where the City is key, othere's where it is not

Forbidden Palace...only Location Matters
Scotland Yard, Mt. Rushmore...put in a Random City (one that won't have other National Wonders)
Red Cross...Nice for a Secondary Military city, otherwise don't bother to build

IW... Good production City or Engineer Specialist city
Wall Street..Holy City or High Commerce City or Merchant Specialist
National Epic... either Wonder City with some food for generic GP boost, OR Specialist City paired with Oxford/Globe/IW/Wall Street, and good Food etc. to allow you to run those extra 3 specialists.
Oxford....either High Commerce City or Science Specialist City
Globe....either Artist Specialist City or Generic Specialist City if you plan on Running Caste System.

H.E+W.P... obvious

The thing is choosing between thesee options as wholes
1. Do I want a specialist City?
2. What should it be (generic specialists require Caste System or a lot of buildings)?
3. Where's the Military City going to be?
4. Where's the High Production City Going to be?

And Remember Don't build Scotland Yard, Mt. Rushmore, or the Forbidden Palace in any of the 'Specialized' cities, unless you Know that city will only be having one 'Specializing' National Wonder.
*Red Cross can be paired with Iron Works for a good Secondary Military city.. but only if that IW has no other functions.