ALC Game #3: China/Qin

Oh my god what a game! Like you said Sissy this is fun. Some awesome land, (at least in my books, the generator hates me), the machinery "lucky" slingshot and already on your way to burning some cities. Woohoo!

Just to throw in my two cents, I'd advise you to go straight after Caesar after finishing Huyana. If you have a well-promoted force consisting of maces and cats, just keep the conquest going by momentum. Only to claim the pigs-gold-site if for nothing else. I was drooling after the ultimate Moneyhaul town (2 gold, cottaged floodplains and some merchants... sweet.) and Caesar goes and snags it. And then the jerk adds insult to injury by founding his city in a crappy place. !@#&...

Conquest would be a nice option. Just put Mansa and everyone else beyond the sea to the proverbial sword with tanks and bombers.
 
I like Krikkitone's suggestions regarding Cultural victory. If I can conquer the rest of my continent in a reasonable amount of time, I think it's doable. I like having a continent to myself for Cultural. Previously, I've done it when I started on a decent-size land mass all by myself. Attempting it after some warmongering should present an interesting challenge.

Unlike other continent games, this one is not too unmanagebly huge with too many aggressive neighbours to deal with. My closest neighbour will be the very reasonable and very un-warlike Mansa, who is hampered by his smaller amount of land and what looks like a lot of desert and tundra. On the one hand I want to keep him off my continent, but on the other, if he wants to put cities in lousy locations, I could probably tolerate that. He rarely declares war on me.

I'm building the Great Library in Beijing at the moment, so if I finish it I may go with K's first option of Oxford there along with IW (interesting combo), then Huamonga becomes the GP farm, focused on GA production. Its first Wonder would be the Sistine Chapel.

Beijing would definitely be one of the three cultural cities; the other two are up for grabs, but Huamonga looks like a strong candidate if I start using it as outlined above. The Roman cities will likely be nabbed too late, so #3 would either be one of my originals or an Incan city.

I'll likely want to snag another religion. Buddhism and Christianity are the only ones on my continent, AFAIK; Hinduism, Confucianism, and Taoism have been founded elsewhere. That leaves Islam. I'll try get at least one more GP, so he would likely help with DR.

However, I would also like to see if I can score first-to-Music's free GA.

This should be interesting. I will have to balance building culture with my war-mongering at first. I don't think I'm going to pause for peace for 10 turns with either Huayna or Caesar. I've got to keep pumping out units and swamp them ASAP so I can turn on a dime and focus on culture.
 
Um, mild correction: if you really want a production powerhouse, look to Cuzco. With the pigs pastured, the fat cross is food neutral - you can workshop/lumbermill/mine every tile. And it has copper. And it's parked on a plains hill. 69 hammers per turn, base.

And it has a shrine. Which means attaching merchants (+1F) and prophets (+1H) there makes buckets of sense already.

And, because there are 10 river segments available, you can take the city up to pop 25 if you want even more GP points.

Ironworks + WallStreet could make for a powerful combination here... even if you don't score the Angkor Wat.

While I'm staring at Incaville: I'd recommend scrambling up another settler, to raze Machu Picchu and resettle one tile west (trading a plains river plots, a coastal plot, and ocean plot, and a plains forrest on a river to get a grassland river plot, 2 floodplains, an oasis, AND a bonus food at the city plot) - HC had some Acapulco Gold with his cereal the morning he settled there :smoke:.

(New Machu Pucchu = GP farm? There's a lot of food....)

Edit: sorry, no food on the bonus plot. Floodplains are overlays, and go away when you found the city. I knew that once. :smoke:
 
Sisiutil said:
I'm building the Great Library in Beijing at the moment, so if I finish it I may go with K's first option of Oxford there along with IW (interesting combo),

Well Bejing is an intersting City.. allmost all Grass with some good Food bonuses and a decent # of Hills, enough for a Jack of all Trades

However, IronWorks may be too late for much impact on a Culture win,,, (although Putting it in Bejing would help get More Wonders there and more Culture) another option may be Oxford and Hermitage in Bejing.. Depending on which the third will be

Just remember to hold most GAs till the end for Great works.
they get 14 pt (with Sistine) or 4000... which means that with ~ doubling from Cathedrals, it takes ~150-200 turns to get as much as a great work.. and the great work can be held and targeted to exactly the city that needs it.
(The first or second GA Might be added to whatever city the Hermitage will be built in and still be worthwhile)

That is probably the big thing for the culture win, choosing the 'Hermitage' well. (Bejing probably wouldn't need it and Huamanga couldn't hold it), so a good third city should get it... ideally one Like Huamanga, a few Hills/production bonuses for culture buildings, but also lots of flat Grassland for culture cottages.

Just from an initial look at the territory, Cuzco looks quite promising (9 culture from Shrine+HC)... some hills, lots of grasslands... and Olytambo can help it grow cottages.* (Normally Olytambo is in a razing position, but its a big city, so if it has a few resources in its exclusive fat cross... maybe keep it)

Maybe Wall Street, Hermitage and first 1 or 2 GAs in Cuzco? (jumping way ahead here).. but super Artists do give Gold as well.
 
Round 5: to 1300 AD

Change of plans, gang.

So get this: I go back to the game, hit ENTER to go to the next turn, and right away, this happens:

ALC-Qin_05_01.jpg


Sheesh, what did I do to tick you off, Julie? We're even the same religion!

Of course, Julie has no room to expand. But does he pick on Huayna? Of course not.

But get this: the war trumpets have just finished blaring, and I'm anxiously checking the map, expecting a stack of Praets to appear just outside of Guangzhou, which only has an Axe and a Warrior defending it and is just finishing its walls. Meanwhile, all my units are on the other side of the continent in Yayoi. This would be the perfect time for Caesar to strike.

So what does he do? He puts together a bone-chilling stack consisting of an Archer, a Horse Archer, and an Axeman, puts them on the tile one south of the horses near Guagzhou...and there they remained. He declares war on me and can't even be bothered to pillage, for cryin' out loud.

I can't help but feel a little hurt. I just feel, I don't know...unattractive, I guess. I mean, what's wrong with my tile improvements? Maybe all those cottages make me look fat...

Not wanting to fight a war on two fronts, I paid a visit to Huayna. He was unwilling to part with any of his techs, but quite willing to say bu-bye to all his gold:

ALC-Qin_05_02.jpg


Aces. So I gathered my stack out of Yayoi and sent them west to Roman territory. Neapolis fell pretty quickly:

ALC-Qin_05_03.jpg


It only had two defenders--an Archer and an Axe--and I now have my four, accuracy-promoted, remove-that-pesky-cultural-defense-in-one-turn Catapults. I didn't lose any units, in fact, two more CKNs earned their Drill II. And now I had stone for any Wonders that benefit from it. Not that the next one did, but I finished it a couple of turns later:

ALC-Qin_05_04.jpg


A good thing I snagged that, since my economy is headed into the crapper and it's taking my research with it. More on that later.

The stack then went south to Pisae and met with great success, although I had to sacrifice a CKN this time:

ALC-Qin_05_05.jpg


I decided to raze Pisae, simply because I wanted to head to Cumae, which had several Longbowmen and was situated on a hill (shudder), so I knew I'd need every unit I had and didn't really have any to defend Pisae. Plus, look at those cultural boundaries threatening to swallow it up.

Cumae did indeed fall, though I lost several CKNs in the process. The fact that my lowly Spearman is the one who took the city tells you what a near-run thing it was.

ALC-Qin_05_06.jpg


I then considered whether I should press on, or sue for peace and perhaps a tech. I sent a Sentry-promoted Chariot towards Rome to check on its strength:

ALC-Qin_05_07.jpg


Hmmm, not too intimidating, especially since, unlike Pisae and Cumae, Rome is not on a hill. (Thank goodness. Several Incan cities are on hills too; the AI seems to have shown an inordinate affinity for building on top of them in this particular game.)

So the stack made its way south, and shortly thereafter...

ALC-Qin_05_08.jpg


Look at all those Workers I captured! They're gonna come in handy.

Meanwhile, I popped a Great Prophet in Beijing; the GL was obviously finished too recently to have much of an effect yet. I was considering burning him for Divine Right, but the money situation made me decide to send him to Shanghai to build Christianity's shrine. After all, this may be my last GP of the game. In addition, you'll notice that Mansa--predictibly--built a lousy little city on MY continent, so the shrine will put more cultural pressure on it and the surrounding tiles.

ALC-Qin_05_09.jpg


Speaking of Mansa, he founded Islam on that very same turn, so it's just as well that I used the GP for the shrine.

So here's how things look in 1300 AD:

ALC-Qin_05_10.jpg


I feel a lot more comfortable now that I have some buffer cities between myself and the other civs. Caesar is down to two cities, and it's Huayna's turn after he's done.

Nevertheless, I have some housekeeping to do. Neapolis' borders have not expanded because it's producing no culture. I need to produce a Buddhist Missionary--assuming I have a Monastery somewhere--and send him there.

Yayoi has three unhappy citizens. With all those food tiles, it grew a little fast while I wasn't paying attention. I only have two units there and I don't want it to flip. I'm running Serfdom but think I should go back to Slavery and whip away the frownies for a couple of happy happy joy joy buildings like temples.

Finally, razing Pisae and capturing Rome has left a big culture hole. I think I should build a Settler and defender and rush them there before Huayna beats me to it.

In terms of power, I have a comfortable lead:

ALC-Qin_05_12.jpg


But in terms of tech, I absolutely don't:

ALC-Qin_05_11.jpg


You gotta give Mansa credit, he's making a silk purse out of a sow's ear on his lousy little island. He has a pretty commanding tech lead at this point. This is probably the most worrisome development in the game; it makes me rather regret all those tech trades I did with Mansa way back. Once Huayna's done, or even before then, I may have no choice but to load up a bunch of my veterans onto Galleys and head over to take him down a few pegs. Depending on how that goes and how the other unseen civs are doing tech-wise, I may have to forgo a Cultural win yet again.

(By the way, ironically, Huayna has Guilds but not Horseback Riding! He can't build Knights yet!)

I expect Caesar's last two cities to be a couple of tough fights, and that will likely hold true for all of the Incan cities. I'll be relying on overwhelming numbers to win the day since we're all pretty even tech-wise.

On a related note, it's sad to say, but I believe the Cho-Ko-Nus have had their day. Both Caesar and Huayna have Longbowmen, and their odds versus that particular nemesis have been deplorable. I've now lost all but one of the original wave of CKNs that took those two Incan cities so handily. The survivor, however, I'm happy to say has reached Level 5 and is now up to Drill IV. I've bestowed the simple but appropriate nickname "Killer" upon him.

I now have Macemen, who can receive City Raider promotions and do much better against Longbowmen. Speaking of which, I have those too, and they have an edge on the CKNs when it comes to city defense.

In addition, I'm reverting to Catapults for collateral damage. They're simply cheaper than the CKNs, who are now suiciding rather than surviving their battles. I do feel a stab of regret about it, and given the cultural environment, feel like I'm forgoing the high-quality merchandise for a cheap knock-off from Taiwan. But we all know Cats get the job done.

I can't help thinking that our assessment of the CKNs before the Mao game was correct: bee-lining to them is a red herring. They're a decent UU, but they're not nearly in the same league as Praets or Redcoats.

As always, your opinions and advice are appreciated. Especially, at this point, regarding my economy and research. I need to pull out of that nose dive if I'm going to catch up with Mansa.

Here's the saved game:
 
Longbows and crossbows are essentially variants of basic medieval archery unit: Str6, 1 first strike. Longbows get equivalent of garrison1 and geurilla 1; crossbows get equivalent of drill 2 and bonus vs melee.So overall IMO crossbows have an edge as defenders (both for stacks and cities). Cho Ko Nu are not great attackers because they're not eligible for city raider promotions but that doesn't stop them being good units.
I'm up to 1650 in my Sisiutil Qin game. Interesting how same start on same map leads to a different game.
Basic advice:slavery, pop rush courthouses, decide where you're going to put FP and cottage spam with financial helps a lot (it may be worth putting cottages on spare sugar at Beijing and going back to bureaucracy)
 
Again, I'm glad to see the game has so far moved in a promising direction.

I spent some time reviewing some of the AI leader settings in the XML, and in hindsight I'd say Julius is the better target. As you found out, he's a little trigger happy (be glad he brought so weak a force; I had him and Huayna fight in one run through which prompted Julius to build enough units to run not one but two stacks into my territory at some point). He's also a little harder to get along with. Oddly enough, it seems he's less prevalent to build wonders (presumably because they're cheaper, and if he or other Industrious AIs preferred building them, you'd probably have far less hope of ever building any yourself). Additionally, he has less respect for warmongering than Huayna, and he doesn't respond as well to shared religion, and he has a slightly higher tendency to build military units (I can't recall atm if he is less considerate of his trade partners than Huayna as well). All moot points, currently, but expect more detailed AI analysis in the future based off that XML information once I explore it more.

With regards to the CKNs, you're hitting one cap to their useful lifespan. From here on out, they're useful suicide/janitor units. Combat 1+ (perhaps even Combat + Cover, or Combat + Shock) for suicides (though keep in mind there's a 50% cap on the collateral damage you can deal to a given defender), or continued full Drill for janitors (they clean up damaged units with their heavy first strikes). Obviously stash the level five away for West Point (even if you don't plan on using it, you'll want it available just in case). Though from here on you'll need mixed forces to continue your offensive efforts.

In terms of your economy, you should be (or should have been) Cottage spamming. Found a few well placed coastal cities to grab those lucractive 4 Commerce coastal tiles (2 + 1 from Colossus + 1 from Financial). Spreading religion and using OrgRel to build Courthouses and Markets would certainly help, as would moving your Palace and/or building Forbidden Palace. I'll see if I can't dotmap a few places for good coastal/river cities off your savegame if I have a chance (I just spent a good 6-8 hours reading the entirety of the CIV Cuban Isolationists game, and I'm debating between sleep or no sleep atm).

I found that, due to the disjointed portion of the continent that spawned as Mansa's personal island, your starting position is fairly weak. There's not much space to your north to expand to, and you've got all that Jungle south of you to clear (if you haven't done so alreadu). The good news is that there's a lot of riverside Grassland tiles to be Cottaged, and you should be able to improve your economy greatly with some coordinated efforts. Just be careful to expand those borders. You may even want to consider settling cities before any of the three AIs chooses to backfill what's rightfully yours (hence why I suggested that you terminate Open Borders with Mansa so that he can't get down there until he grabs Astronomy, by which point you should be returning to a more stable economy).

You've done a good job of injuring the two AIs on your continent, and they shouldn't pose much problem for awhile (though taking time to rebuild at this point will leave them much tougher to break later; I gather you don't have the ability to finish them off now, however, even if it meant razing rather than capturing). You'd probably at the very least want to finish off Julius before fully devoting yourself to infrastructure. It appears he's down to his last cities, and doing so would allow you to focus your attention on Huayna (and perhaps Mansa in the longer run).

You should be able to catch up reasonably to Mansa at some point. Working in your favor is that he's probably reached the limit of what he can do with his island. I'm willing to bet most of his tiles are Cottages, which give a greater appearance of superiority than he actually possesses. By this I mean that, while his research rate is substantial currently, it's probably reached a point of stagnation, with the majority of its growth being in the form of moving from Villages to Towns (not as potent as building/acquring new cities in the long run).

Additionally, most of his island seems to be Desert/Tundra (remember how far behind he was when you met him?). The AI isn't very good at building non-Cottages, so his growth is further limited by his upcoming inability to grow his cities to significantly larger sizes (which he'd have the ability to do if he mixed Farms with his Cottages). Either way, he's going to be lacking in either Hammers or Food, if not both (most likely both, I think), which will leave him too weak to be a threat in any victory condition (including space race, unless he has an extremely sizable lead, which he won't once you recover). Just expect to lose some wonders to him, and probably the circumnavigation bonus.

Again, I think he'll be looking for every opportunity to drop down and settle on your continent, which is something to be avoided. Check his power rating with some regularity, just to make sure he's not amassing troops (fairly atypical Mansa behavior, but an AI all alone is almost assuredly going to look to expand). Not that the AI handles naval warfare or continent invasion very well (he probably won't land more than a stack or two on your shores, if that, ever, if at all, assuming he even has the resources for most units). Still, having to declare war on him in order to remove some poorly placed cities isn't something you actively want to do.

vampy420 said:
One thing I notice in your saves - you dont seem to clear the jungle from your elephant camps - Is there a specific reason or just oversight / too many other things for workers to do ?

There's a lot of Elephants on this continent (like 5 or 6 within 1-2 cities reach of Being, IIRC). You only need one for the Happiness bonus and for War Elephants. The rest you'll either be bugged for, or you'll be giving an AI access to Elephants, or you can try to trade (perhaps for gpt at this point wouldn't hurt). Though I've considered trading/gifting a source to an AI I plan on attacking to tempt them to grow their city over their own Happiness rating, then pulling out the source once I start a war (and presumably causing unhappiness in whatever cities were relying on the +Happiness). I've certainly made the reverse mistake myself (declaring war on a civ which was feeding me a Happiness modifier, then running into unhappiness as a result).
 
One thing I notice in your saves - you dont seem to clear the jungle from your elephant camps - Is there a specific reason or just oversight / too many other things for workers to do ?
 
Sisiutil said:
On a related note, it's sad to say, but I believe the Cho-Ko-Nus have had their day. Both Caesar and Huayna have Longbowmen, and their odds versus that particular nemesis have been deplorable. I've now lost all but one of the original wave of CKNs that took those two Incan cities so handily. The survivor, however, I'm happy to say has reached Level 5 and is now up to Drill IV. I've bestowed the simple but appropriate nickname "Killer" upon him.

The CKN is a great UU, but I use it differently. First of all, the CR promotions are for the maces, which should always accompany the CKNs in a combined arms approach (with cats if possible). Secondly, I promote the CKNs with Combat 1 and then either specialize them or head for Combat 4 and 5. Yes, they last that long. A suicide attack is ok for a Combat 1 CKN, but not too often. As you already have surmised. the CR3 Macemen are the heavy lifters in city busting.

The CKN's best use once longbows come into play is to trade off with the maces and catapults to weaken a city's defenders. Using strength enhancement through the Combat promotions really makes a difference in their ability to survive. I'll often have CKNs in the 17 to 27 point experience range providing medic services, collateral damage and overall defense of the stack while still providing offensive punch when necessary.

Finally, and this is my bias, but the CKNs are more powerful on epic and marathon especially speeds. They have more time to go against the lesser archers and build those critical Combat/Specialty promotions before the longbows arrive.
 
Nares said:
Obviously stash the level five away for West Point (even if you don't plan on using it, you'll want it available just in case). Though from here on you'll need mixed forces to continue your offensive efforts.

Actually you don't need to save the Level 5 unit... you just have to have had it at one point in the game.


I agree with the idea that MM is at his peak, you would probably do well to keep pushing your conquest, and Cottage+Missionary spam the conquered territory... you should over take him quickly enough and can use him as a Trade Partner (getting the techs he doesn't have and then trading) [looks like Paper->Education might be good.. just make sure you get Philosophy from him before you give him Education, so you can rush for Liberalism]

MM getting Islam is actually a good thing, since he will probably spread it to you (and for Cultural Victory all that matters is that you can spread it within your cities.)

Going to Slavery sounds good (particularly if combined with Org Rel, to help get Courthouses up)

BTW, has Heroic Epic been built yet? If not, now seems like the time to get a 'last ditch push city'.. since these should be some of the last units you may ever need to build.
 
The other aspect of CKNs is the succesful survivors become Drill Rifleman/Grenadiers/Infantry- don't see many of those about.
 
The quickest way to pull up from an ecconomic nose dive that I've found is to sell your strategic resources. It's (obviously) a temporary solution, but with 3 other civs to trade with you could probably get 30 gold a turn off of it. I'd try to start with pigs/sheep/cattle so they get as little benifit as possible out of it, but as far as stop gap measures are conserned, I haven't found a better one yet.
 
Thanks for the reassurance regarding Mansa. I was getting a little worried. Nevertheless, I think you're right, cancelling OB with him soon may be a good idea, though I would like Islam to spread to at least one of my cities. I think I'll just watch for a Galley containing a Settler and the moment I see it, cancel OB.

I like the civics suggestion--trading Serfdom for OR to maintain something of a production boost while being able to spam missionaries for both Christianity (gold via the shrine) and Buddhism (culture for border expansion). Not to mention whipping some courthouses and ridding myself of a few unhappy citizens.

I definitely want to turn around after Julius and go after Huayna. He'll just be tougher later on if I delay. I'm accumulating units in Cumae to add to the stack that just took Rome for the final push.

I really appreciate the suggestions for the CKNs. I'll continue to build a few but change to the Combat promotions, as suggested. I think the Drill promotions worked well with the pre-Medieval units, but now my opponents have units whose inherent advantages effectively cancel out much of the Drill benefits; so, time to change tactics. Meanwhile, the stacks will indeed have a variety of units. I have Knights coming on soon too.

HE did get built, by the way, in Shanghai. I didn't want to delay, as I really need to pump out units right now. I deliberated over where to put it for some time, but decided to combine its GP points with Colossus, and its culture points with that and the shrine to put more pressure on that little Malinese city. Thracian is currently my best production city, and if I follow previous suggestions for Watermills and Workshops, Huamanga may overtake it. That fits with my stated preference to NOT make my best production city my military city.
 
Weighing strengths / weaknesses of CKN I'm of the opinion they are more of a defensive unit than offensive. Not strong attacking well defended city, but great for whittleing down the approaching stack of enemy macemen.
 
Add my voice to the crowd -- finish Julius, then Huayna, then Mansa. Don't allow more than a few turns between Julius and Huayna. You're enough of a builder that you'll want to wait _one more turn_, but if you have the four culture-stripping catapults plus a nice big city-capturing stack, what's the point of waiting?

Oh, and: think in advance where you want to put Forbidden Palace. Right now it looks like a coin flip between Cuzco and Tiwanaku... depends on whether you think the captured Roman cities will grow bigger faster than the captured Inca ones. The sooner you get FP built, the better; it's probably worth your while to whip a courthouse in that city, and then chop and/or spam some workhouses for FP.

Invading Mansa... hum. Someone remind me again what tech is needed for Galleons? The strait is narrow enough that, once you control the seas you only need two or three to ferry your stack. But then, you do need to control the seas. Here's where you have to catch up to Mansa -- gotta have those key maritime technologies. You don't want to be trying this if he has Frigates and you don't.

Right now it looks like you can get Compass from Huayna. I'd grab that before killing him.


Waldo
 
vormuir said:
Add my voice to the crowd -- finish Julius, then Huayna, then Mansa. Don't allow more than a few turns between Julius and Huayna. You're enough of a builder that you'll want to wait _one more turn_, but if you have the four culture-stripping catapults plus a nice big city-capturing stack, what's the point of waiting?

Oh, and: think in advance where you want to put Forbidden Palace. Right now it looks like a coin flip between Cuzco and Tiwanaku... depends on whether you think the captured Roman cities will grow bigger faster than the captured Inca ones. The sooner you get FP built, the better; it's probably worth your while to whip a courthouse in that city, and then chop and/or spam some workhouses for FP.

Invading Mansa... hum. Someone remind me again what tech is needed for Galleons? The strait is narrow enough that, once you control the seas you only need two or three to ferry your stack. But then, you do need to control the seas. Here's where you have to catch up to Mansa -- gotta have those key maritime technologies. You don't want to be trying this if he has Frigates and you don't.

Right now it looks like you can get Compass from Huayna. I'd grab that before killing him.


Waldo


If the eventual goal is to invade Mansa - wouldnt it be better to simply re-locate capital to a central point on the main continent and build FP on Mansa's rock ?
 
Janus0 said:
The quickest way to pull up from an ecconomic nose dive that I've found is to sell your strategic resources. It's (obviously) a temporary solution, but with 3 other civs to trade with you could probably get 30 gold a turn off of it. I'd try to start with pigs/sheep/cattle so they get as little benifit as possible out of it, but as far as stop gap measures are conserned, I haven't found a better one yet.

Heh, you might be able to get 30gpt for the resources, but will the AI spare 30gpt? Well, Mansa might, but that would only serve to strengthen his inherently weak position. It's a shame you can't specify the number of turns a diplomatic agreement will exist for (after reading that RB SG last night, and seeing the difficulty even they had forcing the AI to surrender a city, being able to set a 20+ turn peace agreement might be an appropriate way of dealing with that issue).

Sisiutil said:
Hmmm, not too intimidating, especially since, unlike Pisae and Cumae, Rome is not on a hill. (Thank goodness. Several Incan cities are on hills too; the AI seems to have shown an inordinate affinity for building on top of them in this particular game.)

I've found the AI to be rather fond of building on hills. I personally don't too often, as I think the Grassland Hill is far better for working, only the Plains Hill will give the +1 Hammer in your center tile. Also, how often do I really get attacked (making me wonder why anyone would build Chichen Itza in a single player game). Then again, if they didn't, rolling over AIs would be that much easier (though I still think Longbows are way too powerful, presumably to again make the AI a bit more difficult by providing so tough a non-resource dependant unit).

Sisiutil said:
Thanks for the reassurance regarding Mansa. I was getting a little worried. Nevertheless, I think you're right, cancelling OB with him soon may be a good idea, though I would like Islam to spread to at least one of my cities. I think I'll just watch for a Galley containing a Settler and the moment I see it, cancel OB.

Religion spread has nothing to do with Open Borders (are you still running Theocracy? :p). The only requisite is having a city lacking religion. Trade routes certainly help, though aren't 100% necessary. Distance, I think, helps, but again, it's not a requirement to be close (I think trade routes have more effect than distance, or they at least work to balance each other). Just build a few coastal cities and hope Islam spreads to one of them before something else does. That's really the only way to grab it. Religion won't naturally spread to a city that already has one (though I feel I've seen evidence to the contrary, I'm more inclined to believe statements made off code than my personal experience on this one).

pigswill said:
The other aspect of CKNs is the succesful survivors become Drill Rifleman/Grenadiers/Infantry- don't see many of those about.

Yeah. I rather enjoyed pitting some Drill IV Grenadiers against Longbows, etc, during ALC2.

Krikkitone said:
Actually you don't need to save the Level 5 unit... you just have to have had it at one point in the game.

Hmm, I never knew that. Nice of them to have set it up this way. I assumed it was dependent on actively having the unit, though I suppose I should have deduced it works the way you describe when I lost my only Level 4 unit (though I may have replaced it so soon after to as not notice whether I could build HE or not) and was still able to begin construction on the Heroic Epic.

Krikkitone said:
Going to Slavery sounds good (particularly if combined with Org Rel, to help get Courthouses up).

Good call with Slavery. Just remember to spread the faith first. You could also whip some recently captured cities (great if they're under cultural pressure and will starve most of their population away regardless). On a related note, you can determine the number of turns remaining from your last whipping in a city by subtracting 10 from the Whip button's tooltippped number of turns of unhappiness you would incurr by whipping at that point. Sure beats having to remember the turn you whipped on.

vorumir said:
Invading Mansa... hum. Someone remind me again what tech is needed for Galleons? The strait is narrow enough that, once you control the seas you only need two or three to ferry your stack. But then, you do need to control the seas. Here's where you have to catch up to Mansa -- gotta have those key maritime technologies. You don't want to be trying this if he has Frigates and you don't.

Given Mansa's current tech lead, I don't think it would be possible to catch up until around then, if not a little later. Making Liberalism a bit of a stretch to reach before he does (beeline or not).
 
Nares said:
Religion spread has nothing to do with Open Borders

You sure about that? scours SDK Oh, you are! Far out!

As long as you aren't at war, you are good to go.

Of course, without OB, your only hope of religious spread is osmosis, and given that Neopolis is considerably closer to Buddhism and Christianity than it is to Islam, I don't like the odds much.

OTOH, Saladin Mansa is happily Buddhist for the moment, I don't see him sharing Islam with you any time soon.

ObEdit: Edit
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
Of course, without OB, your only hope of religious spread is osmosis, and given that Neopolis is considerably closer to Buddhism and Christianity than it is to Islam, I don't like the odds much.

EDIT: Gotta correct myself a bit. Trade routes don't matter, ocean/coastal doesn't matter, and distance doesn't matter. I'm inclined to think it's entirely random, though it's possible one of the three conditions above would have to have some effect (IE, distance doesn't matter if there's a trade route, trade routes don't matter if you're close enough, ocean/coastal don't make a difference at all, except in the sense that if there's distance and there's ocean, there'd be no trade route without Astronomy, so less chance to spread). I've seen religion spread in such a way as to refute any theory (including my own) about what would encourage a religion to spread. The only requirement for passive religion spread is to not have a religion present in the city you want religion to spread to, and to not be at war with the AI who you want to get a religon from.

In this case, just found some coastal cities and pray (literally).

You'd need to do it anyway to help pull the economy out of the crapper. As I said, those coastal tiles are lucrative, and all you need is a hill or two (all the good sites have access to a hill or two) to help build a Courthouse, a Lighthouse and (eventually) some Commerce multipliers.

Looking at the last world map provided, Antium and Ravenna (the last remaining Roman cities) have just as much a chance of picking up Islam as cities founded on the northeastern coast (unless they have in the interim between the last scouting and the current turn).

OTOH, Saladin is happily Buddhist for the moment, I don't see him sharing Islam with you any time soon.

Saladin? Did I miss something?

EDIT: You must mean Huayna, and I believe it's Mansa who has Islam (it is). Regardless, I don't think an AI being in Theocracy would preclude their non-state religion from spreading to you (unless you yourself were in Theocracy as well). Not that Mansa's going to run Theocracy without being able to use his units. He's probably running Pacifism, if anything (OrgRel's a possibility, but he really won't have all that much infrastructure to build, versus the far more immense use he'd get out of Great People, and his greedy nature would probably leave him less inclined to run the higher costing civics). Actually, there should have been a message to this effect somewhere in Sisiutil's turns (presumably no screenshot was taken).

EDIT: Regarding Mansa's tech lead, look at how much gold he has versus how much gold Julius and Huayna have. It lends even more evidence to the case that he's running really high science.
 
Nares said:
EDIT: Gotta correct myself a bit. Trade routes don't matter, ocean/coastal doesn't matter, and distance doesn't matter. I'm inclined to think it's entirely random, though it's possible one of the three conditions above would have to have some effect (IE, distance doesn't matter if there's a trade route, trade routes don't matter if you're close enough, ocean/coastal don't make a difference at all, except in the sense that if there's distance and there's ocean, there'd be no trade route without Astronomy, so less chance to spread). I've seen religion spread in such a way as to refute any theory (including my own) about what would encourage a religion to spread. The only requirement for passive religion spread is to not have a religion present in the city you want religion to spread to, and to not be at war with the AI who you want to get a religon from.

Ok, my turn.

Somebody asked about Natural Religious Spread, and so I went digging into the SDK. For religion to spread to a city, it must have no religion present (as you noted), and it must be connected to the Holy City.

Connected means by routes, rivers, or terrain (coast/ocean). Terrain connections require the techs that unlock them, either researched by the person who controls the target city OR by the person who controls the holy city.

What I had misunderstood was the importance of cultural borders; I had thought that trade routes could only pass through open borders - but as you pointed out, that's not necessary. As long as you have some connection to the other city that isn't blocked by a war, you are good to go.

Distance is definitely a part of it - see the link above for the references to the relevant parts of the SDK.
 
Back
Top Bottom