ALC Game #3: China/Qin

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

speaking of submarines .. they are way underpowered vs battleships.. they should get a bonus vs battleships.

I can't say that I've ever used them for much besides spying, but from what I've read, the best technique with submarines is to load them up with Flanking promotions. They get a natural 50% chance to withdraw, so with Flanking I (+10%) and Flanking II (+20%), I think that means an 80% chance. After gaining experience from a few successful battles, you go down the Drill line to get first strikes. At that point, you've got a great way to soften up the enemy ships before your destroyers and battleships finish them off.

As someone who knows essentially nothing about real life naval combat, that doesn't seem all that unrealistic to me. I'm not sure a torpedo is going to sink a modern battleship as much as it would disable it to the point where it has to limp back home to port for repairs or where it's a sitting duck for a secondary strike.

 

[Sisiutil]

Whoops.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have built SY in Cuzco. Can't build any more national wonders there now. Darn. It was one of those moments where my brand-spankin' new industrial powerhouse was ready and rarin' to go, so I had a look at what was on the list of wonders...ah! Scotland Yard, yes, spies would be handy...D'OH!! Ah well, not as bad as the game where I really wasn't thinking and put Heroic Epic and the Herimitage in the same city. Good for Great Artist points, I guess...

And it's not so bad. Cuzco can pause its builds to crank out a spy in one turn. I'm Industrial, Financial, and have the Kremlin; I should be able to beat the AI to any of the remaining Wonders that I want.

I may re-evaluate my Internet rush; it seems I'm mostly caught up, or close, tech-wise, thanks to all those trades, and civic changes, and cottages maturing into towns. I should mention that I did so well with Steel by taking the risk that the AIs would not trade it amongst themselves immediately. So after I traded it to one AI, I took a chance by waiting a turn for my new pre-req techs to open up their dependents, then traded Steel for those with another AI. For example, obtaining Education from Asoka allowed me to obtain Liberalism from Bismarck on the following turn. If I had not done this, a lot of the Steel trades would have been very lopsided (Steel is worth 4004 beakers, most of the techs available on the first turn of trading it were around 2500, and the AIs were only willing to part with one of those).

Also, it turns out Steel is a very highly-valued tech by the AI, so as you can see above, I got some very attractive deals for it. Normally I wouldn't trade such a potentially-dangerous tech so much, but "normally" I'm the one ahead on techs at this point in the game. Something to remember for future games if I'm behind in techs.

I may do one more trade with Asoka for Assembly Line--he'll probably cough it up for Radio, which I'm now researching--then go it on my own. I like the idea of a defensive pact with him, since he's Friendly and with Radio, potentially dangerous. The way it looks now, the Internet would snag me Divine Right and Rocketry. The former is a dead-end tech, the latter I can probably trade for or get on my own pretty quickly now.

And I do indeed hope that Asoka, Bismarck, and Vicky are gearing up versus one another rather than me. I will indeed check the diplo board. I may even try to stir up a little trouble. Heh heh.

On the other hand, if I can snag Assembly Line, then the Pentagon (Cuzco should be able to crank it out no trouble), and then a ton of new and upgraded Infantry, I probably won't mind going after Mansa, Vicky, and/or Bismarck just to get rid of their annoying little cities. If I ally with Asoka, I can tolerate his little outpost down there on the ice. He gets a silver mine with it, more power to him. I took the better ice-city location, with silver, iron, and fish.

I wouldn't mind a couple of minor wars at this point, first against Huayna (his last city is blocking my ships' passage around the northern tip of the continent). If I keep that city I can subsequently use it to launch an assault on Mansa. He would likely focus his efforts on attacking it while I take out his cities on my continent. The only complication is that potential Defensive Pact with Asoka. Hmmm... take out Huayna, DP, see if Mansa gets belligerent...?

I forgot to mention that Shanghai is about to pop a Great Person in a handful of turns. From the odds, it looks like it'll be a Great Merchant (The Colossus' final pay-off), who will probably merge into the city--looks like Beijing now--that builds Wall Street. I should be able to turn the slider to 0% to get the same amount of gold in one or two turns that a multi-turn trade mission would yield, so forget that. Great Prophet? Also merges into commerce city. If it's a Great Artist, I'm gonna culture-bomb one of those rival cities--probably Liverpool or Stuttgart, the one-offs from the least friendly AIs. A Great Engineer--ooooh. Tuck him away for the Space Elevator.

Yep, looks like I'm going for another space race victory. But hang on kids, it promises to be a bit of a bumpier ride this time!

 

[vampy420]

I wouldnt waste the GA on stuttgart .. that will probably flip on its own given some time.

 

[Sisiutil]

I wouldnt waste the GA on stuttgart .. that will probably flip on its own given some time.

Yeah, and its borders aren't threatening anything vital. I'm thinking of building the Globe in Xian and cranking out a GA, so all that extra culture will indeed pressure Suttgart.

Liverpool's borders, on the other hand, are pressing against a coal mine, a copper mine, and a uranium mine. Not my only ones of those, but it's the principle of the thing.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'd be starting to think in terms of golden ages.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

And I do indeed hope that Asoka, Bismarck, and Vicky are gearing up versus one another rather than me. I will indeed check the diplo board. I may even try to stir up a little trouble. Heh heh.

That may not be a bad idea. In my most recent Prince space race victory, I had Huayana, Frederick, and Roosevelt all as realistic competitors in the race. They were on the other continent. Huayana hated me, Fred and Frank loved me. I just kept bribing them to get into wars with Huayana and the rest of the continent. That kept everyone so occupied that when I launched my ship, only Frederick and Huayana had even discovered Rocketry, and nobody had built the Apollo Program.

Note that in that game I had the advantage of already being the tech leader, but the basic approach doesn't depend on that. The real issue is that the AI has no idea how to walk and chew gum at the same time. Get them worrying about war, and they'll never finish the spaceship.

On the other hand, if I can snag Assembly Line, then the Pentagon (Cuzco should be able to crank it out no trouble), and then a ton of new and upgraded Infantry, I probably won't mind going after Mansa, Vicky, and/or Bismarck just to get rid of their annoying little cities.

That also sounds reasonable. If you assume that war with them is inevitable, because they'll eventually attack you to prevent you from launching your spaceship, then you might as well make a preemptive strike and keep them from sneak attacking. Fight the war on your terms instead of theirs. As someone else suggested, wait until you've built up a reasonably decent navy. Then after you kick them off your property, they won't be able to mount any kind of realistic counterattack.

If it's a Great Artist, I'm gonna culture-bomb one of those rival cities--probably Liverpool or Stuttgart, the one-offs from the least friendly AIs.

VoiceofUnreason mentioned a golden age. That's probably the smartest play. If, however, you decide to culture bomb, you might be better off bombing whoever you decide to keep friendly with. I'm fairly certain (but not 100%) that there's no diplomatic hit for taking over a city that revolts. Thus, if you bomb Liverpool or Stuttgart, you're wasting the artist on a city you could just as easily have taken with tanks. On the other hand, if you bomb Asoka's silver mine, you can get everyone off your continent, including Asoka.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'd be starting to think in terms of golden ages.

Good idea. Unless I get a GE or a GS, I'll have to consider that.

 

[pigswill]

Just finished my shadow Sisiutil Qin game. Space Victory 1923. 28,890pts. Might post it in post game analysis.

In terms of space race golden age you might be better burning GS or GE for Golden Age (or even both) because by this point you'll probably be building components in several cities, you probably won't be prioritising wonders and you'll probably be getting more beakers from multi-city golden age than burning a GS for a tech (assuming there's one worth having).

In terms of culture pressure have you built hermitage? If not locate it near one of MMs cities.

I'd advise against war because its a distraction from your victory goal, any cities you capture probably won't become productive in time and you'll screw your diplomacy. That's not to say you shouldn't be going for a military build-up, even if it means diverting from research to get money for upgrades

 

[vormuir]

I agree with Pigswill. At this point in the game, war is a distraction. Fun -- you could beat Mansa like a gong -- but a distraction.

Do a military buildup as a deterrent. Remember that the AI doesn't take promotions into account. A tank with Combat II counts the same as a plain old tank, even though it's much more powerful. So build lots of units and spread them around. And, yah, build a nice big navy too.

In Civ II, airlifts by hostile powers could be intercepted by fighters. Is that true in Civ IV? If yes, then just post some fighters in your southern cities. Of course, that won't prevent the AI from building a stack during peacetime, but you should be able to spot that coming (missionaries, spies).

But really, it looks like clear sailing at this point. So you didn't get Liberalism and the circumnavigation. No biggie. You're in excellent shape to win the space race. Barring surprise or catastrophe, I think this one's about a wrap. Who's next?


Waldo

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Should be Hatty with the Egyptians unless he played them before

 

[Gumbolt]

CKN looks fun. I started a game on Saturday with China. Unfortunately i was a bit slow on machinery. Also i started with mansa and the Romans on my island. Skirmishers and praetorians. With vassalage those CKN get up to 3 first strikes with a barracks. I took out 4/7 Roman cities with few casualties and only 1 praetorian in sight. English beat me to oracle grrrrr. A tech or 2 in a hut would of helped get oracle but i wasnt heading the Religious route.

Its interesting how china seems to start with Mansa and Romans on mine and this game.

Looks a good game from what i have read here. Key for china for me is the Oracle and free tech towards machinery. 20 turns for a tech while other techs are 4-7 turns seems crazy otherwise.

I think the crossbowmen is an excellent praetorian beater. They whip those archers too and do collateral as long as you can keep those defence bonuses down.

 

[Sisiutil]

This game ended late last night (one...more...turn...). I'll post the play-by-play, summary, and post-mortem from home later today. I don't want to give much away, but Pigswill and Vormuir and I were all thinking along the same lines. Which is either cool or very scary, depending on your point of view.

Next up is, indeed, Hatshepsut of Egypt. I'm as eager to move on as the rest of you, but let's finish our analysis of this game first.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

This is going to be long. If you want the short version, it's one word -- thanks.

When ALC#1 began, I had been playing at Prince level, but I wasn't really enjoying it. I would either lose badly and early or win barely and mostly by luck (ex. nice geography, friendly neighbors, etc.). I decided to take a break from that and head back to Noble for a while where a win was pretty much guaranteed but not necessarily easily or in a runaway.

I picked up a lot of ideas in ALC#1 and eventually won my final Noble game in an embarrassing rout. I think I had the nearest challenger's score doubled before the industrial era. In the end of a domination victory, I was fighting off leftover, non-upgraded longbows and archers with my tanks and bombers. It was ridiculous, so I decided I was ready to try Prince again.

I'm currently in the middle of what I think is my third or fourth post-ALC Prince game (as Montezuma this time). In spite of dipping into 30% science (and losing money at that) several times, I have a huge lead in score, power, food, and hammer production. Isabella is competitive in gold, but I'm closing the gap, and I'm now at 60% science with a small profit. I'll meet the other continent soon, and we'll see if the lead holds up, but I think I'm in for an easy win.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although I'd like to think that some of it is just me getting smarter, probably 80% or so of the difference comes directly from things I've learned reading these threads. I'm doing a much better job of managing great people generation, early warfare, choice of research path, and whole list of other things.

Thanks. I'm not really looking forward to Monarch though. I think I'll stick with Prince for a while.

 

[Sisiutil]

Thank you, Doc, for the kind words, though any thanks must be shared with everybody who contributes to these threads. Believe me, I'm learning just as much.

Winning is more fun than losing, of course, and all the more satisfying when you have to struggle at some point, or at several points. While the previous ALC games ended in very clear victories for me, I always feel like I'm teetering on the brink of disaster for most of the game. That was true of this one in particular, because I tried some strategies that were very foreign to me, and then fell WAY behind on tech, and then power, even though I was way ahead on score. I had a sinking feeling that just made me look like a very attractive target to the AI.

Let me issue my own thanks in that regard to everyone who suggested the new, somewhat counter-intuitive tactics and strategies I tried: the machinery slingshot, the CKN rush, the grassland and river production cities, and so on. I would never have tried these just playing on my own, and like Doc, I have picked up new tricks to try in other games.

Monarch makes me a little nervous too, but I'll get there...after finishing off the remaining leaders in these ALC threads. I'm also working up to trying out multi-player eventually, though that sounds like a whole other kettle of fish entirely.

So, to echo Doc's short version--thanks again, everyone!

 

[vormuir]

Add my voice. Sisiutl, this is great stuff.

One other thing. You seem to be enjoying this, which is great. But don't keep doing it from a sense of obligation. I mean, you've got, what, fifteen more leaders to go? Pace yourself, and if you start getting burned out, give it a break.

Meanwhile, of course, knock yourself out. I'm thoroughly enjoying this.

cheers,


Waldo

 

[Sisiutil]

Add my voice. Sisiutl, this is great stuff.

One other thing. You seem to be enjoying this, which is great. But don't keep doing it from a sense of obligation. I mean, you've got, what, fifteen more leaders to go? Pace yourself, and if you start getting burned out, give it a break.

Meanwhile, of course, knock yourself out. I'm thoroughly enjoying this.

cheers,


Waldo

Thanks for the kind words and the concern, but thankfully, there's no sign of burn-out yet. I was worried about that when I started this game, but taking risks on all those new tactics kept the interest very much alive.

And interacting with everyone on a game like this is loads of fun. I miss it when I play a non-ALC game to pass the time between ALC rounds and posts.

 

[pigswill]

This thread is turning into a litany of praise but thanks to all especially Sisiutil. As I've said before I'm learning a hundred times more than I've contributed. Not only was my shadow the first space race I've tried (and messed up thoroughly) but this was also the first Civ 4 game I've actually completed; usually I've got to 1600 or so and either given up coz I'm losing or so far ahead it seemed pointless. I've acually discovered there's half the game I haven't explored before. Would I have done this without ALC series? Probably not.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 8: to 1940 AD

Steady as she goes.

Spaceship victory. Been here, done this. As with the Mao game, the thing here was to not make any really big mistakes.

To start off, I made a couple more key tech trades, including this one with Asoka that I'd referred to previously:

I also swapped Electricity to Vicky for Biology, which would help with a final surge of city growth and specialist support.

Oh, and the GP in Shanghai popped out: a Great Prophet. Hmmm...not what I was hoping for, but not bad. I sent him to Beijing:

I know VoU was urging a golden age, but I wanted to finish Wall Street and then lower my science and culture sliders to 0% for one turn for a quick cash injection. The extra gold and hammers from a merged GP would help with all of that. Besides, I had several GPs on the way. Points had gradually been accumulating all game and were just coming to fruition now...as you'll see.

I also got tired of not being able to sail around the northeastern tip of my continent. Now that I had Transports, it was time for Huayana to take a bow:

I kept the city, as it gave me a foothold on Mansa's continent, just in case. It also ensured that he wouldn't settle there and block my passage again.

I was getting geared up to kick everyone else offa my rock after that. Bismarck and Mansa had a defensive pact by this point, so going after one meant going after both. That suited me just fine. I upgraded the Rifleman, Grenadier, War Elephant, and Catapult I'd left in Andahuaylas (the last Incan city) to Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery to withstand an assault and had a transport standing by to ferry over reinforcements. I was gathering my veterans in Xian for a dual assault on Stuttgart and Mansa's two cities. I was just about to lower the slider for a turn or two to finance more upgrades when...

Well don't that beat all. You don't suppose he's been reading our posts, do you?

It made sense. I had spies on his continent by this point, and they revealed quite a build-up by all three civs there. They were obviously more preoccupied with one another than they were with me. As in the Mao game, a late defensive pact pretty much guaranteed I'd be left alone to pursue my victory condition.

The AI Asoka was obviously thinking along the same lines. A few turns after this, he wanted to trade Industrialism to me for Computers. Hmmm, no. I'm sorry you have such threatening neighbours that you had to prioritize Tanks and Marines, but I'm not trading a space race tech to you at this point, Friendly DP partner or not. Get bent, dude.

My spies showed that Vicky, Asoka, and Bizzy were all ahead of me. Bismarck was already building SS parts, and the other two weren't far from finishing Apollo. BUT each of them only had about six cities each. I had around two dozen, including more than a few industrial powerhouses. Provided I got left alone, it wasn't even going to be close.

Speaking of being left alone: I still had squatters to deal with. I simply started pumping up the culture in my southeastern cities via buildings and specialists. The Hermitage went in Rome to put pressure on Mansa's cities. Xian built the Globe and then started running seven artists and one scientist. Shortly thereafter, this happened:

Meanwhile, I kept researching and building up my cities. I built several more wonders: the Pentagon, Rock n Roll, the Eiffel Tower, the Three Gorges Dam. All chosen to help, directly or indirectly, with the space race. The Pentagon meant I could build promoted units to fight off an invasion if it occurred. Rock n Roll and the Tower meant I could keep my citizens happy and hard at work. And the Dam boosted production even higher. Some people don't bother with the Dam for the space race--but since you need Plastics several turns before you reach Robotics, I find I usually have several turns to build it before I can start on the Space Elevator. And how can you not like a 50% boost in hammers to every city on the continent when you're building space ship parts in half of them that can't be rushed? Besides, Cuzco couldn't build the Elevator--it was too far from the equator.

I had just started building the Space Elevator in Thracian when I got a very pleasant surprise:

Yes, Yayoi popped a Great Engineer! What luck! Gather up your blueprints and your hardhat and shlep your butt over to Thracian, my friend!

And I wasn't done with the Great People, oh no. Since I wasn't Philosophical, didn't build the Parthenon, or run Pacifism, I'd had very few. That meant the GP points required for each new GP were still quite low. Suddenly several of my cities that had been building up GP points for a long time started producing GPs. I got two Great Scientists from Xian (against all odds--I was going for a GA, but oh well). I saved the first for a GA, but when I got two, I decided to put them to use. The first built an Academy in Cumae, the second shaved a turn and a bit off of Genetics. Then I got another Great Person!

Check the top of the screen shot. See what I'm researching? Can you guess what I was thinking?

Now get this. On the very next turn:

• I finished the Apollo Program.
• I finished the Space Elevator.
• I finished researching Fusion.
• I used the GE from Fusion and the GM to start a Golden Age.
• I started building space ship parts in over half of my cities.

Before the Golden Age was over, I had all but two SS parts completed.

But I had one more little bit of luck that panned out:

...and with a Mechanized Infantry unit too! Thanks, Vicky!

Shanghai had been building military units non-stop up to this point. But then I researched my last SS tech and had two expensive parts to go, so my two best production cities, Cuzco and Shanghai, did the honours. I also started parking my workers and setting my city builds to research to reduce the micromanagent. I was just waiting for the last few turns to go by and the parts to get built. Even if I'd been attacked, I likely could have beaten them back long enough to get everything finished.

No one attacked, and in 1940...

Yay me! I think that's gotta be one of my earliest ever SS victories.

The last autosave before the win is at the bottom. Now on to the post-game analysis.

 

[Sisiutil]

Post-Game Summary

First off, a few screen shots to summarize things. Let's start with the score graph for the whole game:

After I took out Caesar, no one could really touch me.

And the power graph for the last 50 turns:

I was building Tanks like crazy, and in 1926 I traded Medicine and a chunk of gold to Vicky for Flight, then started building bombers. No wonder everyone left me alone.

The demographics:

Top cities and wonders:

Yeah, I was building the UN and Hollywood. Why not?

The statistics:

Wow, less than 12 hours. That's a very fast game for me. They usually take me 20 or so, unless it's a cultural game with very few wars.

And my final score:

Now THAT was pleasing in several ways. Most of all because this is now my best-ever score in my own HoF! I finally displaced that domination win as Caesar in 1937 on Warlord!

And here I was so worried when my wars ended and I found myself severely behind in tech. Good thing I don't turn tech trades off!

On to the analysis...

 

[Sisiutil]

Post-Game Analysis

First off, let me say that I really think the Machinery Slingshot was an incredible fluke. No, really. Watching the turn counter go by, I was reminded of CS Slingshots, which I think this is equivalent to. And as most players will tell you, pulling off a CS Slingshot in a level above Noble, where the AI civs start with a tech advantage on you, is extremely rare. And I think the Machinery Slingshot belongs in that category.

For anyone hoping to attempt it, I would suggest going back to everyone's posts at that point in the game for other methods to achieve it. Such as using the Oracle for a less ambitious tech like Metal Casting, followed the judicious production and use of Great People.

I don't know if I used the Cho-Ko-Nus as effectively as I could have. They were awesome on the attack at first--as any significantly advanced unit would be--but once effective counters appeared, I don't think I properly adjusted my tactics by relieving them of their primary attack role and using them for stack/city defense and clean up ("janitor duty") of remaining defenders. I often fall into this trap with UUs: I rush to them, get used to throwing them at inferior opponents, but then lose them when the AI catches up and produces better counter-units becase I'm so used to seeing them win and fail to adjust. (I remember losing a lot of veteran Praetorians in one of my early games when I stubbornly refused to believe those barbaric-looking Macemen could possibly be a match for them. Well, guess what?)

Nevertheless, the CKNs significantly wounded Huayna almost single-handedly, and were instrumental in both big wars. As I said before, not as awesome as Praets, Redcoats, or Cossacks, but one of the better UUs nonetheless.

That being said, I think bee-lining to them is a red herring. They're too expensive that early in the game to quickly build them. Axes do just fine, and at nearly half the hammers. If I'd gone for an Axe instead of a CKN rush, I probably could have owned my continent much earlier and finished the game about 100 years earlier. Or gone for a cultural win (one of these games, I promise...).

The wars dragged on as a result, and kept me from taking full advantage of the Industrious trait by keeping me from building several mid-game wonders. However, the cheap forges were handy, to say the least. And when I got around to building late-game wonders, I did indeed find that I could finish any of them before the AI.

I feel like I really honed my tech-trading skills in this game, especially when I was shopping Steel around. Waiting a turn for dependent techs to open up and become available in your trades is a risky tactic, but one I will remember when making the rounds if I'm behind. You can probably use it any game on the turns following the discovery of Alphabet.

I learned a lot more about city specialization and tile improvements in this game. Cuzco was an amazing powerhouse with IW and all those workshops and waterwheels, especially once I implemented the State Property civic. This was invaluable to try because it's so counterintuitive. When I see grasslands next to rivers and few or no hills, I think "cottages"--especially if I'm Financial! For those of you wondering when and why you'd build workshops or watermills, now you know. I was one of you too before this game.

And I posted in another thread on razing cities that you should consider keeping coastal cities you conquer no matter how lousy they are. That, or build Settlers and have them on hand during a war to resettle territory immediately. Otherwise you get the claim-jumping AI all over your brank-spankin' new territory.

Overall, though, a very successful game--hey, I won! With my highest score ever! No wonder (pun unintended) a lot of people like playing as Qin. Money and Wonders--a fun combination.

Your thoughts are eagerly anticipated and appreciated.