ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[pigswill]

Still a bit early to be deciding on City#2. There are a number of possible sites but no single obvious site. If you build a couple of archers before completing settler and send scout and warrior to explore the large hunk se of thebes you'll just about have finished bronze working and that would be the time to make decisions about city#2 and early war. It would certainly help to know if there's another civ hiding somewhere in there. War against Vicky seems premature if there's someone closer to pick on. You also don't know how long your warrior will be hanging around until a worker appears in range.
It's also worth considering that using chariots is a means to an end not an end in itself.

 

[The Tyrant]

I would give the warrior the woodsman promotions and turn him into a superscout. By the time he could get back at movement rate of one, you can have other defenders built. You'll get more use out of him as a scout.

I think the jungle horses can wait. With your opponents that far from you it won't be necessary to settle in that direction first. You normally want to settle in the direction of your opponents so that they don't take that land, but in this situation that isn't a concern. The NE horses are a much better choice right now.

You're probably right about the city defense situation. Usually if you start worrying, its because experience is screaming warnings from your subconscious. Trust your gut feelings. You've scouted a fair amount already, meaning it is almost time for the animals to turn to barbs. It might be a good idea to chop one archer for capital defense, but I would cry if I had to chop TWO forests for archers. Maybe chop one, build one?

Stealing a worker could be good, but then how are you going to get him back home? That is too far to travel unescorted. An animal or barb would surely eat him. The worker can only move rapidly on open terrain while the warrior (with woodsman promos) could only move quickly in forests/jungles. It would be a slow walk back, mostly through already explored terrain. Is that worth giving up the exploration possibility of the warrior?

 

[vampy420]

considerin you havnt even finished the settler yet, nor decided on a location or hooked up horses, i dont think those WC will make it there in a 'few turns'

At any rate - NE looks like more of a late game site if you plan on using all those tiles - no seafood - only one grassland river to compliment the gold mines . . maybe settle a bit west, on the river to pick up marble, horse and cow - with 5 grassland river tiles and 2 plains hills .. looks like nice site for #2, then u can look for bronze. unless u wanna play in the jungle b4 iron working that is..

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd say Chop the Settler (from a hill forest which you would clear anyways), then build/whip the Archer/s normally. (focus on food and when you reach 3 pop whip)..
you should have
6 excess food/turn at 1 pop and
8 excess at 2 pop (2->3 should take 3 turns Without a Granary)
after whipping the Archers.. and keeping at least 2 pop, get the Second Settler, then after that's done the food can support 4 plains hill mines, for Rapid WC pumping.

I like the idea of Harassing Vicky, just make sure you build a replacement scout after the first settler and necessary archers are done. (The worker would probably get barbed on the way back.. but its Vicky's loss, not yours)

I'd agree with the NE horse (allows easier river connection too) [thing to remember you Don't have to worry about them being in the second ring because you are creative... you could get a good city with Wheat, Horses, Cows and plains to use up that extra food from the Wheat and the Cow)
and a Second good city would be in the Grassland Marble Forest area.)


General Dotmap idea...
Horse City NW of the Horses
Marble city [right now general backup production city] on Plains Hill W of the Marble

Later Cities.. a Gold Coast City probably north of the River to give it access to sufficient grassland tiles... then I'd go for the Jungle.


One final thought you have 3 expansive Civs on this continent with you, they will have big cities.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Conquered the continent in 200 BC (when london fell. 'twas a tough nut.). I sorta dicked around a bit with my war-chariots, and mounted a failed assault on Rome, but my forces were spread thin fighting 3 simultaneous wars. Thebes was spitting out a WC every 2 turns, and Memphis every 3, and this rate only increased with time. I retained Rome, London, Paris, Madrid, and Barcelona. Barcelona was the farthest away, but when you see it, you'll know why I kept it. All tolled, my war of unification went from 1600 to 200BC, but I'm not sure how many turns that is.

Will Sisiutil's conquest be better or worse? I do not know...

What I do know is that you totally should have settled on the plains-hill 1 square south. Where you settled is about the same in terrain quality, a net exchange of 1 fruit for 1 river tile. The major effect this will have though is f-cking up later city placement. It might ease up some city positions to the south, but it'll come at the cost of screwing up 2 good spots to the north. It will also mean that your capitol is 1 square farther (big deal...) from where you are going to put Memphis, down by the horses (Put it elsewhere and face my wrath!). There will be a very interesting dot-mapping problem that wil arise when you fully scout out the region, but will mostly sort itself out with the discovery of Bronze-working. There are basicly 2 sets of optimal city locations, based on the position of Memphis, but one of them will probably be shown to be superior.

 

[theimmortal1]

How come you never steal workers in these games? It is a huge benefit with almost no risk. Well the only risk is you won't be able to scout the map as well, but thats a trade-off you should be willing to take.

 

[Sisiutil]

Thanks for all the contradictory advice, gang.

Let me see if I can reconcile all of this into some sort of overall plan:

Most seem to agree on leaving the jungle horses for now. Since I'm quite a ways from iron working, I agree--though it may depend on what shows up nearby.

That means a city near the NE horses. Here's a dotmap based on Krikkitone's suggestions:

Though I don't see how that later gold coast city you're talking about could work, unless you meant for city # 2 to be further north.

Mind you, I've just started researching Bronze Working and it would be awfully handy to know the location of copper before making any final decisions. (This is another reason to delay the Settler build for an archer, which I will probably do.) The city #3 location is rather bereft of resources, which makes me think (hope?) that something will be revealed nearby--copper or iron, perhaps?

As for the Warrior and Vicky--I'm thinking of promoting him to Woodsman II (superscout, as Tyrant suggest) and using him to snag a Worker if one happens to appear while I'm exploring the area. theimmortal1 is right, I should be a little more opportunistic when it comes to stealing workers, especially on this map and with my plan still in place to start warring soon. The Worker will be on his own going back and will likely get killed, but as K said, that's Vicky's loss, really. Or Isabella's, if I steal one of hers.

EDIT: Hans--I appreciate your input, but your post was a borderline spoiler. Pigswill has also played a shadow game in the past but has held off on posting information about his version until after my game was done. If you could do the same, I'd be grateful. I don't want to start deliberately ignoring your posts, because they are insightful.

 

[drkodos]

I like site #3 better for the 2nd city. Seems like a far way to go to link those two cities if you go with #2 as the 2nd city? I am also more than a little found of those Flood plains tiles to the West of the capital city for potential GP farm.

I will be playing a shadow game as well and will not tip any spoilers.

My plan is to forget about the horses and instead plan on a sword rush since the distances are far enough that the time needed to tech up to IW should work out. Then looking to bee-line astronomy, and then to Guilds. I'll let the other civs play in the jungles and then take a few rival cities once they have grown to Pop5 or 6 and can sutain themselves while I cut away the jungles.


BTW: Great series and idea for posts. I have learned a lot through interaction from all the kibitzers.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I was figuring Gold City Would have a lot of Overlap, but it would really be Purely to get those two gold tiles, small but profitable
The other option would be the Hill W of the Golds... in any case not a large City because of the Desert, but the idea is a quick payoff from the Gold.

Also it sounds as if the Settler will be done before Bronze Working, in that Case Finish it up since you can't hurry it anyways unitl you get Bronze working

 

[pigswill]

I still reckon that until you know whats south east of Thebes you don't know if cities #2 and #3 while be 2# and 3# or #5 and #6. We're working on incomplete information.

 

[Araqiel]

Well I was figuring Gold City Would have a lot of Overlap, but it would really be Purely to get those two gold tiles, small but profitable
The other option would be the Hill W of the Golds... in any case not a large City because of the Desert, but the idea is a quick payoff from the Gold.

Also it sounds as if the Settler will be done before Bronze Working, in that Case Finish it up since you can't hurry it anyways unitl you get Bronze working

The only way the gold city can work is if you settle on the plains on the coast, two tiles north of the second gold. Farm both the grassland tiles and you'll have the +4 food you need to work both gold tiles. It'll be a size four city until biology but it'll get you 20+ commerce pretty quickly. The overlap doesn't matter as you'll just work those four tiles for the whole game. Defintely worthwhile to do, but you should probably focus on getting your chariot rush ready before you put a settler down there.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Definitely go for the horses with your second city. I say go ahead and get an early start on Vicky. Snag the worker and tie her down, get those horses hooked up ASAP and she'll be easy pickings with just WCs(make sure you have at least 2-1, naturally). I'd actually say wipe her out and just sit tight from there. You've got a lot of room to expand, even more if you take out Vicky. I'd say bite the bullet and keep London, as it's doubtless an excellent site and worth the stiff upkeep. It is probably as good as Thebes and will be invaluable to your early expansion. Snap up the land throughout the Classical, snag CoL with Oracle so you can get the upkeep in London down ASAP, and just expand and build a good base for some medieval smackdown(or snag the Parthenon and cruise to a culture win). I definitely like settling near that gold though, even though it's a bit of a marginal site long-term. That city'll prop up your science rate quite nicely well into medieval if it can manage to work both gold mines. The production won't be bad either...

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Hans--I appreciate your input, but your post was a borderline spoiler. Pigswill has also played a shadow game in the past but has held off on posting information about his version until after my game was done. If you could do the same, I'd be grateful. I don't want to start deliberately ignoring your posts, because they are insightful.

My appologies, I shall endevour to keep my lips tight in the future. Any advice that will affect your decision-making based on info you do not have is to be strictly off limits.

I can however still give you some good advice! City-site #3 should be made 1 square south. You gain 3 grasslands, 1 floodplain, 1 plains, and 1 grass-hill (since you won't have built on it), 5 river-tiles and 4 forests. For this you only give up 3 grasslands 3 plains and 1 forest.

Net change: +1 Floodplains, +1 Grass-hill, +4 Forests, +4 River-tiles, -2 Plains. All indicators point towards a site 1 square to your south.

Further benefits: closer to Capitol, closer to river, leaving room for a fishing-village to your north.
Further Cost: You get 1 overlap with your capitol, on a grass-forest/river.

Basicly, it comes down to this: Are you willing to have 1 overlap with your capitol in order that the floodplains not go to waste? The floodplains are the most immediate benefit, the forests and river-tiles won't show their heads until later.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I can however still give you some good advice! City-site #3 should be made 1 square south.

I agree this is defintiely a better spot than my first look


Also a Gold City on the Hill West of the Gold would still have access to 4 River Grassland tiles, more than enough and with no overlap [again this city might not get built until you've mostly eliminated two people so it is under Long term plans.]

For other Long term plans I agree with the Oracle/CoL...since you have Marble, It'll be a cheap easy way for digging yourself out of the maintenance hole you get by conquering fast.

And I'd stick with getting a Clear Continent, if you can get it filled up with Just you Early... the benefits are clear, (2-4x as much territory means soon enough 2-4x as much research=easy Space Race win, good Culture win if enough religions and also possibility of Domination Win if you get your lead back soon enough.

I'm dropping back into the Explore with Warrior, rather than harrass with Warrior mode... you have a lot of scouting to do, admiteddly it can be done with WCs themselves, but Vicky is pretty far, It'd probably be more worthwhile declaring once you had gone around her somewhat. An early crippling is nice, but information is Very useful now.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I am curious...how much of the south-lands have you explored by now Sisiutil? I am seeing mostly northern areas here, so I wonder. I guess your exploration options are limited at present by the number of scouts you have been able to put out.

A good determiner of where and how close your rivals are, is how soon and from what direction you met their first explorers.

One of the ironies of the development plans for this map that you can see here is how the terrain consires against you to reduce the number of coastal city spots. I'm sure there will be others, but it looks like the north is to be mostly land-locked.

 

[pigswill]

One thing about north horse city is that while its a long way off the river provides 90% of trade route so you can knock out chariots in thebes easily enough

 

[drkodos]

One thing about north horse city is that while its a long way off the river provides 90% of trade route so you can knock out chariots in thebes easily enough

True.

But that river runs a long way and there are some other great sites along it to get the same trade and health bonuses.

IMO it just seems a Chgariot rush is not really called for in this situation. With all the room to expand easily and peacefully, why not expand? I think th ebest and most win ning strategies match up with what the game scenario dictates and that a Chariot rush is a bit "forced" in this scenario and will not reap the rewards it could in a better situation.

Let me just say this caveat: I think there is more than one good strategy that can be implemented in this particular game and by no means am I saying I have built a better mousetrap.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 3: to 2200 BC

I am beginning to think that Drkodos has a point, and a darn good one at that.

I'd love to do a War Chariot rush as we discussed, but the map is just NOT cooperating. In fact, the map is screaming, "Expand! Expand! Build, you fool!"

But I could be wrong. So I didn't play too many turns--I wanted to see what everyone thinks.

I let the Settler finish building (especially after the reminder that I don't have Bronze Working yet, and therefore can't chop or pop rush anything--duh). After that, I started buiding archers for city defense. My Scout, Woody, did a little looking around those gold hills (dodging Lions several times), then went back to fog-bust the way for the Settler.

So, second city up and running. Horses not connected yet, but soon. Since the critical resources were improved around Thebes, I had my Worker start on a road to Memphis. Why does it go through so much forest? Lions. They were swarming just east of the mountains just east of Thebes, so I had to avoid them. Guess the followed Woody in from the desert.

My Warrior got Woodsman II promotions and tagged "Woody II". He did poke around London a bit, but no Worker appeared. I suspect Vicky was on to me. So rather than waste too much time with that, especially since I was now looking at tundra that had English and Spanish Warriors crawling all over it (meaning no goody huts). I turned him back towards the north to expose more of that area. I did find Spain's borders--almost due east of London--but would have had to waste several turns moving around mountains on non-forested terrain to try a worker-theft there. Sigh.

Then I finished my next research item:

As with Animal Husbandry, the first thing I did after finishing BW was scan the map for a key resource: this time, copper. There are two sources of it near Thebes:

You see what I mean? To get horses, copper, AND marble on this map will require a city for each. None of them being the capital. If fact, no key resource has appeared near the capital yet, which is unusual. I'm kind of hoping that I have Iron nearby, but with my luck, it'll probably be aluminum. (Thebes' culture is at about 150/500--it won't be claiming that copper tile to the east for awhile.)

Anyway, here's the big map--not all of it, but all of it that matters:

I've got archers in both cities now, and a third one ready for the Settler that's now being built in Thebes. I stopped at this point because a crucial question now hangs in the air: where does the next city go?

It's not a simple question of dot-mapping. Obviously I want to snag both copper and marble, and that will require two cities, but the question really is one of priority. Snag copper and that speaks to an Axe rush, which is along the lines of the early war we'd discussed, but since the horses STILL aren't connected, the WCs might play a bit less of a prominent role.

If I build the marble city next, I'm de-prioritizing warmongering in favour of building--I'll be going after the Parthenon or Oracle or both.

I'm still thinking a quick war could work, so that means the next question is, which copper location to use, and exactly where? I've got Woody over by that silk tile in the east (which, BTW, is where Rome is), and he'll keep exploring there. Woody II is a little southwest of him, and I'm thinking he should pull a 180 and head west to reveal that darkened territory. I'm especially curious if there's a seafood tile on the coast near the copper. (Or should I send the Scout west and the Warrior east--looking for, once again, an opportunity to steal a worker from Caesar?)

It's a big continent, and the critical resources are really spread far apart from one another.

This is gonna be challenging. I look forward to hearing what everybody thinks, though I bet it's going to be a mass of contradictions again!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You are right, unless Caesar is across the Eastern Desert (in which case it would be good to crush him) that jungle forms a good rush barrier.. having some WCs out for harrassment/scouting rapid response is still good.

I'd go for the Western Copper, it has the most easily accessible food (Cows and Rice if you place the city NW of the Copper... and Coastal too I think) Eastern Copper has only Fruit requiring Iron Working And Calendar.

With that Marble, you might want to consider a Cultural Win (Marble is good for most key culture Wonders (Parthenon, Sistine, Oracle for Religions through free techs and Prophet points)

Not to mention you are sharing a continent with the Seriously religious Spanish which means they will prbably get the Other religions that you don't.

I'd focus more on a Rush to colonize (plays to your food richness) than Wonder Building though. (so still unit heavy, and WCs can make good settler Escorts move 2, generic toughness... although across the Jungle it shouldn't matter much.)

I'd Go
3. West Copper... for Crushing the Romans if they are near and you can stop them from getting Iron
4+5 Cluster of resources farther south (the Elephant Gold Gems Cow Area)
6-8 Marble City [which sets about getting the Oracle and then the Parthenon], Gold City, East copper
9... more in the southern frnge of the Jungle
12?+ Filling in (Western Wine+flood plains, etc.)


So basically trying to colonize 'out' as much as possible, then if anyone gets inside your borders, it becomes much easier to decide who to go to wart with, and distance isn't as much of an issue

 

[Nares]

Eastern Gold city all the way.

Meanwhile, explore NW and SE. You need to see what's the the NW, because I suspect it will be a rather juicy site (hopefully, though with this game....). Find Ceasar and rush him with War Chariots before he builds too many Praetorians (no Praetorians is ideal; Spearmen are less threatening than Praets, tbh).

For the next two thousand years or so, your Happiness in provincial cities will be capped at or around four (four is base on this difficulty, five once you have the Gold, nothing higher until heavy Jungle clearing for Gems or Monarchy for a Winery, or getting lucky with a religion). The eastern Gold city is pretty much fully worked at four population (two Grassland Farms and the two Gold mines).

For starters, this gives you a Happiness resource, which means one more pop in your other two cities (they look like they'll be the heart of your empire for a good while). It also gives you a great city to build your first Library in (the other two current cities should be busy producing War Chariots for a long time, in my opinion). Don't neglect the power of double Gold mine research. Especially when you build your first Cottage on one of the remaining river Grassland tiles, and work it with your fifth pop (Happiness cap pre-Monarchy or heavy Jungle clearing for a Gems city).

Just make sure to get those farms up early, and that city is set. I don't think it could double as an early production facility, but it doesn't need to. It's there in place of an early Cottage-farm, which you don't currently have the terrain to support. Hopefully JC has a little better terrain down his way for you to expand into once you take Rome (presumably the only city worth accepting the maintenance cost for).