ALC Game #5: England/Victoria

VoiceOfUnreason said:
Difference between you and me is... I hate gross overlap cities because of the rampant maitnance cost because you effectivly have twice as many citeis in teh same land, at least untiil the later game... some overlap is fine to fill holes but...

I don't feel the need to move the pink city just for the lux recources...(EDIT - in the map above, my alternative would be SE of the wheat) There is always the options for a commerce powerhouse to the far SE(look at all the lux recources), plus you have floodplains. IMHO, having the wheat for growth on that city PLUS the ability to tighten up your empire and get more tiles worked without overlap trumps one extra recource

RESEARCH ANIMAL HUSBANDRY and let's see if we can get soem horses to affect our dotmaps! (play your game... i'm not saying to make a bad research move on a part of a dotmap).

Anyway forested hill city to the north of london is one everyone seems to agree on, i would make that your 3rd city after copper

Now... Concerning copper... this is how i decided...

There are three viable options if you want the copper in the first tile, northwest, west, and east of the mountain Lets compare-

East(original suggestion) - Rice and copper, lots of grassland, some forests, 1 visible hill, a coastline, 2 desert, 2 plains
West(my suggestion) - Rice, copper, AND stone, AND an oasis, same amount of deserts and mountains as east(actually one more, sry)
NW - (VoU's bullseye) - same as west, but lose the stone, but gain a) MUCH less unworkable tiles, b) gives soem room in the "gap" between your cities to eventually put a working city there and hook up the stone if need be.

Now, if you look at these carefuly, you'll immidiately see that NW is superior as a city... However, tactically, it all depends on wheather the community wants to wait for hte culture borders to get copper or get it right off the bat, if wait, go with the bullseye NW of mtn., if immidiatly, go with west of mtn.

on a side note, i think stifiling w/ warriors with woodsman 2 is pretty great, i always use them for scouting... seems good to me, but i've never treid the strategy so don't ask me to be objective.
 
On Copper City, I think 1 S of the Rice is the Best, for three reasons

1. first ring access to both Copper and Rice (making it a decent city before Culture)
2. avoids the Western Deserts
3. when culture does expand, it blocks them off



As for City #3... it depends on if you find anyone to the South..
If you do I'd make city # 3 the Southern One (to work at settling towards them)
[I'd put the Southern one on the Silk]
If you Don't (or they are Very far) then go for North (West might be better in the sense of expanding Quicker.. Whip a Workboat, Granary, and Lighthouse and no Workers are needed... although they will be useful
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
It looks like a better commerce city placement, which though not cutting Monty from the copper physically, may do so tactically.

It's important to note that the AI will settle on some abyssmal sites just because they're available. It will settle on even worse sites if it means netting a resource, even if it already has one of that resource (though this is unconfirmed).

While grabbing the Copper seems a vital necessity for an early war with Monty, it may almost be more sensible to settle some of the more ideal city sites (rather than reach for a resource), and research Iron Working and Animal Husbandry (c'mon Iron).

Even so much as settling near that Copper is going to be a challenege, as I am sure Monty is presently beelining for it as well. Sacrificing a stronger placement in order to nab a resource you 1) could replicate elsewhere, thus having no need for it, and 2) might very well lose to Monty regardless due to the extreme cultural pressure his capital is outputting, and the combined Obelisk/religion culture he can generate at this point, or at least serve to start pissing him off or otherwise have him settle in an odd pattern (for example, he may settle to the NE of London if you fail to soon enough).

Normally I would not suggest this. But, it's possible to play nice with Monty long enough to get through IW, and keep yourself in a state of peaceful builder research. I think key to this is using the whip on Granaries and Obelisks, as well as foregoing Stonehenge in favor of Settlers, Workers, and an earlier start on The Oracle. Keep in mind, heavy Flood Plains Cottage spam is what you're really going for at the moment, using any food surplus to churn out Settlers and Workers to higher base production cities (or cities lacking a food surplus to whip more than a Granary and Obelisk from).

betafor said:
Now, if you look at these carefuly, you'll immidiately see that NW is superior as a city... However, tactically, it all depends on wheather the community wants to wait for hte culture borders to get copper or get it right off the bat, if wait, go with the bullseye NW of mtn., if immidiatly, go with west of mtn.

Well, the thing is, it's tactically a weak decision to wait for the border pop in this case. Even without a border pop, there's a strong chance the Copper is going to be lost.

on a side note, i think stifiling w/ warriors with woodsman 2 is pretty great, i always use them for scouting... seems good to me, but i've never treid the strategy so don't ask me to be objective.

(I'll neglect a source on this, as the issue has been raised earlier , and it's not necessarily betafor's suggestion, but rather theimmortal1's).

Stifling is good. Stifling is the only way you'll guarantee the Copper. Stifling does run the risk of Monty getting really pissed off, and is going to put you into a state of war for a significant amount of time (you need to settle the Copper, Mine the Copper, build roads to the river, presumably build Barracks, and build Axemen, all while keeping Barbarian's off your back). Even then, don't be surprised if the crafty bugger researches Sailing, builds a Galley or two, ships a few Archers your way and takes London while you've got your pants down.

However, if you'd like to stifle, I would suggest getting a Medic I Warrior for each Woodsman II Warrior. Beyond this, I really don't think there's an easier or more ideally suited situation to stifling, with all that water in his fat cross.
 
WIth that far off copper(which willl be difficult to actually use), monty also going for that copper, and the many barbs that will spawn from the north, It looks like archery is a nessesity to stay alive. at very least they will hold back monty and the barbs until you can find a better means of defense(like iron or horses).
 
How much culture do you think a holy city produces? If Montezuma's borders expand 2 more levels, they'll cover 2 tiles of Betafor's red city or none of VoiceOfUnreason's gray bullseye. To actually capture the copper, they would need to expand 3 times beyond the intial expansion they've already done -- he would need 5000 culture. Is that really something we need to worry about?
 
ArmoredCavalry said:
WIth that far off copper(which willl be difficult to actually use), monty also going for that copper, and the many barbs that will spawn from the north, It looks like archery is a nessesity to stay alive. at very least they will hold back monty and the barbs until you can find a better means of defense(like iron or horses).
This is something that occurred to me as well. With the copper in a difficult spot, I could decide to give it a pass in favour of IW and/or AH and hope for Iron or Horses close by. The problem during the time it takes to research those, more than Monty, will be the barbs that will come from the north. So--not only do I need either IW or AH, I need Hunting and Archery. And there's not guarantee that Iron or Horses will be any more conveniently located. In any case, I'm looking at quite a delay and a long period of vulnerability.

On the other hand, I can put a less-than-ideal city next to the copper and have the resource available ASAP. With Axes, neither the barbs nor Monty will be a huge problem.

Sorry I haven't posted the game (or played it) yet, I had a busy day. I'll get to it later tonight.
 
One thing that did work wonders in my first success as Vicky was an axe rush (my victim was HC).

You have to take down one of the other AI fast and hard. Take whatever risks you need to to get rid of someone. This frees up room to build some cities of your own, and it gets rid of the biggest pain in the butt (Is there really a bigger one than Monty?).

I stand behind what I said earlier about getting the Copper online pronto. If you can get away with the "stiffling" trick, then go for it, but that needs to be a distraction to keep Monty from the real objective.

I agree that Barbarians will be a threat, and if you have a couple warriors to harrass Monty, a couple warriors to cover your own ass, and a couple to secure the Copper, then get the show on the road...
 
Round 2: to 2000 BC

Thank you, Gnarfflinger, for that vote of confidence. "Getting the copper on-line pronto" is exactly what I'm working towards. And since the map generator emptied the loony bin for me this time, that's where the smart money's going:



Well, that's just swell. Monty's twin sister, the religious fanatic, to my south. All I need now is the poster boy for bipolarity, Alexander, and I'll have a complete set of Civ psychos to deal with. :blush:

My Settler completed, and was rushed into the hotly-debated area near the copper. I ultimately decided to go with Betafor's suggested location:



My original location, two tiles due east, was just going to put me a little too close to Monty a little too early. And I want that copper on-line ASAP and don't want to have to wait for the borders to pop. In addition, a crucial resource outside a city's first ring is much more vulnerable to pillaging.

That city's going to reach its maximum size by mid-to-late game with those 5 useless tiles in its fat cross, but I expect to have several, much better cities by then. One of them formerly Monty's. Heh. In the meantime, once its borders pop and that rice tile comes on-line, it will do okay.

Once I finished Pottery, I decided to research Animal Husbandry. I needed it to work the cow tile in London's fat cross, and if there's horses around too, well, so much the better. My northern Woodsman II Warrior kept exploring; he found not only horses, but also another source of copper:



Yeah, too bad neither is in the greatest location. Oh, I'll eventually put cities in both locations, but boy, what a challenging map so far, resource-wise!

I met my third neighbour and breathed a heavy sigh of relief when I saw who it was:



Oh, not half as glad as I am to meet you, lumber-jaw. And it looks like Washington is far enough away that I won't run into the "close borders" complaint for awhile:



Washington isn't the only one who's expanding. Monty has already plunked down at least one more city:



As you can see, he's decided to go southwest of his capital. That suits me fine. I want to expand along the far southwest side of the continent until I run out of room, then build cities to my north and east. Before and after I take Monty's, of course.

Here's the map:



And here's a look at my two cities:





I'm building a worker in York right now, who will first get the copper on-line, then build a road back to the capital, or at least the river. The first barb Warriors have started appearing; the barb Archers and (shudder) Axemen won't be far behind. I will probably have to build that floodplain city NE of London very soon to safeguard the copper supply road.

Yes, I farmed two floodplains tiles in London's fat cross. For now. If I'm going to start whipping, I want the city to grow quickly (I need 2 pop to whip a Granary from nothing, so the city has to grow to size 4 for that). Once I have the cows "pasturized", I can put a cottage on the third flooplains tile, then cottage the other two a little after that.

The Settler will complete in 3 turns. I already have a Warrior down on that silk tile to my southeast, and I'm thinking of following Hans' "SOS" suggestion to build there. After the Settler is built...what next?

Do I go after Stonehenge? You can see that I'm researching towards the Oracle. I can probably finish Stonehenge in less than 15 turns with a little chopping. It's very appealing--I never like chopping or whipping obelisks. They seem like a waste of time to me when the 'henge is cheap. The other two cities can build settlers and units in the meantime. I know a lot of you are saying to skip it and just go after the Oracle. I could get the copper going in York and then chop the Obelisk (I won't be able to whip it without that rice tile--catch-22). But I'd much rather chop Axemen, frankly, especially with the strategy I'm thinking about...

Consider this:

  • Hook up copper while continuing to found cities. When copper is on-line for each city, starting building/whipping Axemen.
  • Meanwhile, Woodsman II Warriors park themselves on jungle or forest hills within Aztec territory (one per city?). Monty goes nuts trying to dislodge them while his inability to send out Workers stunts his growth.
  • When I have enough Axes, they take Tenochtitlan.
Okay--pretty standard Axe rush stuff so far, right? Here's where I push the envelope a little:

  • Once I have the Aztec capital, I keep building Axes...but they start heading south. As I clean up any other Aztec cities, another Axe stack goes after Isabella.
Two simultaneous Axe rushes against two AI civs. I haven't done that before; I've always fought one enemy at a time. Desired results: get rid of the psychos, and capture two holy cities. Then...

  • Pick a religion. Spread it to America, convert Washington to it.
  • Build more cities, if needed, so I have at least 9.
  • Found at least one more religion.
  • Leave behind my warlike ways. Turn cultural builder.
  • While Washington pursues a peaceful spaceship victory, I pursue a peaceful cultural victory.
Whaddya think? I may even try to get Washington to join in the fighting at some point just for the diplomatic bonus with him. Later, I'll try to pursue a defensive pact.

The reason why I'm thinking of doing the Axe rush so early and so quickly, and against both Monty and Izzy, is to get it over and done with so I can focus on culture. It seems very likely that Madrid and Tenochtitlan will be two of the cultural cities; London may, indeed, be the third.

Going after cultural would make me feel much better about York. When pursuing a cultural win, you really only have to have three cities reach their full potential. The others just have to be good enough to support the main three. York will certainly do that, though not much else.

Thoughts?
 
Its worth considering that if Monte and Bella have founded religions then holy cities=culture=cultural defence 40%+ (poss 60% by the time you get there). That means lots of axes and high casualties or cats to take down defences.So you're probably looking at one giant stack and a bit of a delay. Culture victory sounds good.
Head for Monte first. Isabella is actually quite a nice person until you adopt a heathen religion so stay no state religion (nsr) or adopt hers if you have an opportunity.
You lose culture for wonders/holy cities you capture while keeping other benefits which make enemy capitals less desirable as legendary cities. Therefore I'd say check out dotmaps to identify legendary cities, get them established and producing culture (inc wonders,loads of culture for doubled or trebled wonders). Stonehenge and Oracle certainly (maybe in diferent cities), CoL slingshot for confucianism. Then head for maths/construction to unleash the big cats for decisive victory ( much better than early defeat).
Culture victory makes the redcoat beeline less important giving you more flexibility. Worth considering theology slingshot after CoL.
 
Sisiutil said:
In addition, a crucial resource outside a city's first ring is much more vulnerable to pillaging.

A crucial resource outside a city's first ring has an axe on it. No worries.

Once I finished Pottery, I decided to research Animal Husbandry.

Looks reasonable to me. Cows and Pigs we know about, it lowers the cost of Writing.

Yes, I farmed two floodplains tiles in London's fat cross. For now. If I'm going to start whipping, I want the city to grow quickly (I need 2 pop to whip a Granary from nothing, so the city has to grow to size 4 for that).

Why do you prefer that, vs putting in a single hammer and whipping it with 1 pop (which you can do at size 2?). Did I miss a memo?


I guess I'm not too impressed by the plan to take out Dizzy Izzy and Monty-Monty-Bo-Bonty. You've played that game already. I don't doubt it will work, it's just unclear to me that it will be interesting. Or necessary, considering you've got a bunch of good sites at hand.

BTW: the target victory for RB19 is culture, you might want to follow that for ideas.
 
Sisiutil said:
If I'm going to start whipping, I want the city to grow quickly (I need 2 pop to whip a Granary from nothing, so the city has to grow to size 4 for that).
Rushing a building from an empty box costs you extra. Once you get some hammers in your production box, then you can whip for its full value, costing you only 1 citizen instead of 2.

I'm not sure exactly of the dynamics involved with this, but I know that when I founded York and wanted to rush the granary, it said it would cost me 2 citizens, as you have seen, but after I waited a turn, I was able to whip a granary in York at size 2 for one population. If you start working on a granary as soon as you found a city, you can whip it as soon as you grow, and all the prior work that went into it will be spilled over into the next job (I think it might even carry the bonus with it too).

As for the SOS option, upon further consideration I think that for longer-term dotmapping, NE of the silk would be a better location. SOS gives you 1 good city, but NE of there (where the comp will show you a blue circle) will give you a somewhat lesser location in exchange for efficient usage of the land. Settling on that grassland will also open up the ability to work the Oasis right off the bat, for 3Food 3Commerce, paying for the city and allowing it to rush a granary a mere 7 turns after being constructed.

NE of the silk does not yield a better city, but I believe that in this case, the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few. It still gets all of the resources that SOS would have, so all you lose are a few river and grassy tiles.

Now, as for the Nor'Easter floodplain city, I think that again, for the good of the many, it should be built on a floodplain tile directly west of the forested hill where you might be tempted to settle. I say this because another city you will want to build in that region needs the cows instead.

Upon a plains-hill, at the head of the river, this city location will contain Horses, Cattle, 2 Wine, and 2 Fur, and have enough fertile land to work all of the lucrative tundra-based resources. Let's call it the Luxurious Edge for now. This city location is but 1 reason you must build Nor'Easter on the floodplains. The other is that this way you will be able to work those plains-hills north of London which probably contain Iron, and if not, then you'll still have some nice hammer-sources for building the Great Library there (if and when the time comes).

Before you complain too much about the nice tiles you will lose in the move west, just think about the tile conflicts it would create with the Luxurious Edge. Sure you gain a mountain and a conflict with Came-*ahem* London, but that is in exchange for getting 3 fewer conflicts with the Luxurious Edge.
 
Hans Lemurson said:
Rushing a building from an empty box costs you extra. Once you get some hammers in your production box, then you can whip for its full value, costing you only 1 citizen instead of 2.

Yeah, but put 1 hammer into a build and that increased cost is elminated. In this case, one hammer towards a Granary would actually be 2/60 (doubled production for Granaries). Then whip for one population. It's been said here more than once, I seem to think, that you could whip a Granary for one pop. Obelisks are one pop as well. Build 1/30 (say, in the turn before the city grows to size 2), then whip it.

Sisiutil, do your homework!
 
I like the overall strategy (If you go Cultural, your three Cultural cities will almost certianly be the Floodplain region)

As for Tactics... I'd say get Stonghenge if you think you might want to do a Cultural Wion... It gives some Good Culture over basically an entire game.. go ahead chop it because you get the axemen by Whipping


OK, for Vicky here are the crucial Whip Values

Granary (not started)=2 pop (60 production...overflow divided by 2)
Granary (started)=1 pop (60 production...overflow divided by 2)

Barracks (not started)=3 pop (60 production)
Barracks (started)=2/1 pop (60/30 production)

Obelisk (not started)=2 pop (30 production)
Obelisk (started)=1 pop (30 production)

Axemen (Not Started)=2 pop (60 Production=25 overflow)**
Axemen (Started with at least 5)=1 pop (30 Production)


**This is the wonderful thing about Axemen, once you are at 4 population, you can Start an Axeman, Cold, and Whip it and in the next 2 (or 3 if you have real low production) turns get 2 Axemen... no more whipping needed.

Option 2 is just build buildings normally, and whenever you reach 4 population inseert an axeman on top and Whip... you get the right level of conversion for non-bonus whipping (30 per pop, but you are able to get 2 pops used per whip instead of one)... which means less unhappiness... which is your Real Whip problem... at least with all those Floodplains, Food is not a problem

So I'd say for MM (in London)
Granary [Whip after its Started]
Barracks [do NOT Whip]
Any other desired buildings [do NOT Whip]... Stonehenge, Oracle, Obelisk, Library, etc.

Then whenever you reach 4 population, put one or two Axeman at the top, and Whip him (for rapid military buildup make it two axemen, for more production overflowing to the buildings make it one Axeman).

To go from 2 pop to 4 pop in London (if you optimize food and have the Granary and Wheat and Cows) will be 4-5 turns... where you'd produce 16-20 'Normal Hammers'.. and 60 Whipped Hammers.

Also for getting Speciaslist Scientists for slingshots, don't worry about the Great Library... once you've got Redcoat Hill, Just whip a Library there and run a couple of Scientists.. You'd have the food to do it.

It's probably worth whipping an Obelisk in Copper city, It'll probably get it done before Stonhenge [And I'd go Obelisk before Granary since in this case Obelisk is the key to good food].... Of course if the copper mine is up soon enough, the Obelisk will be built before the pop increases... but Whip as soon as you get pop 2 (unless the Granary has Just Started) because the Overflow will take care of the Granary then.

Happiness will be your one Major limitation to using this. (you can get up to about 3 whipping unhappiness [~20-30 turns if you whip every 5] before you would have to slow the pace.
 
Sisiutil said:
Two simultaneous Axe rushes against two AI civs. I haven't done that before; I've always fought one enemy at a time. Desired results: get rid of the psychos, and capture two holy cities. Then...

  • Pick a religion. Spread it to America, convert Washington to it.
  • Build more cities, if needed, so I have at least 9.
  • Found at least one more religion.
  • Leave behind my warlike ways. Turn cultural builder.
  • While Washington pursues a peaceful spaceship victory, I pursue a peaceful cultural victory.

Strategy seems good to me! all for it!

my only complaint per say is that in order to make these axe rushes work it's going to need careful manegment, and a lot of axes (remember they get a cultural bonus for founding a religion.

A good way to promote this is by building stonehenge or oracle or whatever wonder in london, but when you get to the pop needed to :whipped: quickly switch to axe... This is just a suggestion, any problems with this?

I would also like to point out in the later game GLOBE THEATER will be super important, expecially if you plan to do a lot of :whipped:
 
Sisiutil said:
  • Pick a religion. Spread it to America, convert Washington to it.
  • Build more cities, if needed, so I have at least 9.
  • Found at least one more religion.
  • Leave behind my warlike ways. Turn cultural builder.
  • While Washington pursues a peaceful spaceship victory, I pursue a peaceful cultural victory.
Whaddya think?

Sounds reasonable, but don't forget that this means you're not going to be using your redcoats for a war. That's fine, but make sure you adjust your planned technology path appropriately. If you're going for a cultural win and peace with Washington, then you don't want to beeline for Rifling while skipping things like Drama and Music.
 
Washington pursues a peaceful starship victory... until you get your Redcoats. At which point you take him out.

C'mon. Redcoats. Washington.


Waldo
 
vormuir said:
Washington pursues a peaceful starship victory... until you get your Redcoats. At which point you take him out.

C'mon. Redcoats. Washington.


Waldo

kinda ironic huh
 
vormuir said:
Washington pursues a peaceful starship victory... until you get your Redcoats. At which point you take him out.

C'mon. Redcoats. Washington.


Waldo
:lol: Yes, as a "colonial", I have a definite temptation to rewrite history there. We'll see. And yes, Doc, I'm well aware that pursuing a peaceful cultural win means forgoing the Redcoat bee-line. They're still a worthwhile goal, if only for defense, and to keep my options with Washington open. Nares, yes, the opening of the game would be similar to others, but the difference would come mid-game when I switch to peaceful builder and go after a cultural win. I haven't tried that on a shared continent before.

Thanks for the clarification on whipping, everyone. When I saw the 2 pop cost for a granary, I was dissappointed, as everyone said a granary would cost 1 pop. But it makes sense that all it needs is one turn to lower the cost.

Krikkitone, maybe it's because it's Sunday morning and I got up too early to watch World Cup games, but your detailed analysis of whipping lost me. Zombie69's article on it did likewise. To better analyze the fine art of Civ IV tyranny, I think it would be helpful if I only play a few turns next round and focus on the use of pop whipping in my post. Then we can look at and discuss a few specific examples of the use of :whipped: .

Good point about Madrid and Tenochtitlan's potential cultural defense. There are, as you say, two options for dealing with that: numbers or cats. I've taken down a 60% city before, but I've had to sacrifice a lot of CR I Axes in the process. Much will depend upon how well it's defended. I'll cross my fingers and hope a Woodsman II Warrior ensconced on a nearby wooded hill can weaken the city by drawing out defenders. I've done this to Monty before, and he's sent Archers out to attack (and die).

And here's my own dotmap which attempts to reconcile all the suggestions thus far, including Hans' latest ones:



The southeast city is in an area we haven't discussed yet, and planning a city there may be getting way ahead of the game since I expect to see Isabella's salmon-coloured borders there very soon (which is why I'm rushing to to settle Pig's Ear--great name, I may keep it). My placement of a city in that area makes the most use of the tiles, but only has one resource in it (gems). Scoring the rice or banans or both, though, would require a radically different location and a lot of unused tiles.
 
Sisiutil said:
My placement of a city in that area makes the most use of the tiles, but only has one resource in it (gems). Scoring the rice or banans or both, though, would require a radically different location and a lot of unused tiles.

I think I disagree. If I'm reading the screenshot correctly, your placement leaves that city with 4 or 5 less food than it needs to work all the tiles. It also has 1 desert tile and 1 tile of overlap with the neighboring city. If you move it 2 tiles south, for example, you could pick up both the rice and the bananas and break even on food. You'd have 2 mountains, but why is that worse than 1 desert and 1 overlap?

You would be leaving a nice strip of grassland unused in between the capital and this city, and that would be too bad.

Note: I'm not necessarily saying that 2 tiles south is the best alternative. That's just the first option I looked at, and it seemed clearly better. There might be other ways of grabbing either the rice, the bananas, or both but with additional overall benefits.
 
If you got the cash and the coppermine what about upgrading the Woody Brothers to axes before they trespass on Monte?
I'd reckon its worth thinking about settling a couple more cities (at least) before entering the psycho of the year competition with Monte. Maybe Pigs Ear and Floodplain Central.
I also look forward to some lessons in the finer arts of self-flagellation.
 
Top Bottom