ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
dave866 said:
Well this is ironic. I have played 15-20 games and never popped a tech I was researching. Last night I played a game as Alex and popped a tech I was halfway through twice in one game! I saved it midway through and started a game with Ghandi and popped a tech that i was 2 turns away from researching
ack
Fetch
When in doubt, reboot.
Mind_worm said:Well this is ironic. I have played 15-20 games and never popped a tech I was researching. Last night I played a game as Alex and popped a tech I was halfway through twice in one game! I saved it midway through and started a game with Ghandi and popped a tech that i was 2 turns away from researching
ack
The law of averages strikes again...
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The Pyramids are attractive for a number of reasons, not just running a specialist economy. Early access to Police State with its accelerated unit production and decreased war weariness is also very attractive and has good synergy with Alex's Aggressive trait, so they're good for warmongering too.
The combination of stone within easy reach and lots of trees around the capital make the pursuit of the Pyramids a very worthwhile and, more importantly, possible goal for this game. I like the suggestion of GPs for CS and Machinery, though researching Masonry will complicate that, as the Great Prophet will then pop techs on the "southern" route in the tech tree. That may not be a bad thing. I had a problem in the Qin game with getting the CKNs early because they're expensive. Then again, Police State would definitely help with that.
So Teal looks like the next city to get the stone hooked up. Depending on how long Masonry takes, I may try to get Athens to churn out a couple of Settlers. I have a bit of time before I really need a lot of units, but I'm thinking I may use Slavery to help get the Pyramids done (build an Axe, whip it, let the overflow go to the Pyramids). So you may see me working food tiles over hammer tiles in the capital to accomplish that. Tricky, but do-able, at least until stone is hooked up and another city can start building units.
On popping techs: I've heard about it, but never done it until last night in my off-line game. I found an isolated island with a hut, used an Explorer off a Caravel to pop it, and got Astronomy! But I blew it. I was so overwhelmed by my good fortune that I made a bone-headed mistake: I right-clicked the wrong destination tile when moving my 4 Accuracy Cats so they wound up on open terrain next to an enemy city instead of joining the rest of the stack in a forested hill. Of course they got wiped out by Horse Archers on the next turn. D'OH! That's one of the few circumstances--a hand slip rather than an error in judgement--under which I will reload an autosave. Which I did, from a couple of turns before. And when I popped that late hut the second time?
"The villagers have given you 41 gold!"
Serves me right for reloading...
Anyway, I hope to play and post the next round tonight.
The combination of stone within easy reach and lots of trees around the capital make the pursuit of the Pyramids a very worthwhile and, more importantly, possible goal for this game. I like the suggestion of GPs for CS and Machinery, though researching Masonry will complicate that, as the Great Prophet will then pop techs on the "southern" route in the tech tree. That may not be a bad thing. I had a problem in the Qin game with getting the CKNs early because they're expensive. Then again, Police State would definitely help with that.
So Teal looks like the next city to get the stone hooked up. Depending on how long Masonry takes, I may try to get Athens to churn out a couple of Settlers. I have a bit of time before I really need a lot of units, but I'm thinking I may use Slavery to help get the Pyramids done (build an Axe, whip it, let the overflow go to the Pyramids). So you may see me working food tiles over hammer tiles in the capital to accomplish that. Tricky, but do-able, at least until stone is hooked up and another city can start building units.
On popping techs: I've heard about it, but never done it until last night in my off-line game. I found an isolated island with a hut, used an Explorer off a Caravel to pop it, and got Astronomy! But I blew it. I was so overwhelmed by my good fortune that I made a bone-headed mistake: I right-clicked the wrong destination tile when moving my 4 Accuracy Cats so they wound up on open terrain next to an enemy city instead of joining the rest of the stack in a forested hill. Of course they got wiped out by Horse Archers on the next turn. D'OH! That's one of the few circumstances--a hand slip rather than an error in judgement--under which I will reload an autosave. Which I did, from a couple of turns before. And when I popped that late hut the second time?
"The villagers have given you 41 gold!"
Serves me right for reloading...
Anyway, I hope to play and post the next round tonight.
Fetch
When in doubt, reboot.
I've been thinking more about the map and have a theory: what are the rarest early resources? Stone and Marble, IMO. You could say gold, silver, or gems, but I'd argue with you. I'll bet the other continent has maybe one stone or marble, but not both. Anyway, the large amount of deserts and other undersirable terrain are "offset" by the map generator by the stone AND marble a few tiles apart. Thoughts?
@ Sisiutil RE: joke: don't quit your day job. BTW what do you do for a living up there in Canadiastan?
@ Sisiutil RE: joke: don't quit your day job. BTW what do you do for a living up there in Canadiastan?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I work in IT, as a technical consultant.Fetch said:
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 2: to 1600 BC
Exploring and building, that's what this set of turns was all about.
My Scouts were going through a cycle of lifting fog, fighting animals, nursing themselves back to health, and exploring some more. It made it slow going, but thanks to having 3 Scouts I now have most of the continent explored.
My northern Scout actually uncovered a goody hut that the Chinese missed!
I popped the hut for...a Warrior.
Again.
Huh.
Well, since my Scout got attacked by Wolves again and had to sit out a few turns in the forest, I decided to send the Warrior off to finish exploring the northeastern snow and tundra. Yeah, he'd be exposed and out in the open, but these Warriors I get from huts are starting to remind me of the red shirts in Star Trek anyway.
(This week, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign What's-his-name beam down to a planet! One of them doesn't come back alive! Who will it be?)
I finished building my third scout in Athens and sent him exploring. Thanks to the barracks in the capital, he started off with a Woodsman I promotion right out of the gate. Good thing, too:
Surviving that attack gave him his Woodsman II promotion.
(Sidebar: I've decided that of all the barb animals, panthers are the worst. Bears and Lions are strong but slow; wolves are fast but weak. But panthers... Too many times I've left a scouting unit out on open ground since I can't see any dangers, and guess what comes rushing out of the jungle at him on the next turn? I hate those things.)
Meanwhile, my northern scout recovered from his third or fourth wolf attack and proved my instincts right about the location of China:
On the next turn, I finished researching a technology that is going to have a big impact on the early part of the game:
Okay, kids, we're pretty much committed now. I just gave up a GP-driven CS Slingshot. Big, pointy-shaped mausoleum of stone, here we come.
To support that end, I founded my second city in sigmakan's "cyan" location. First build: an obelisk. I want to bring the stone on-line ASAP. I sent my worker south to connect the city with a road and to farm the wheat.
As soon as Sparta grew to 2 pop, I whipped the extra citizen away to finish the Obelisk and throw a few hammers in to the next build, a barracks.
I also built two Axes in the capital. Well, I built one and whip-finished him to rush the next one, so both cities have a protector. Thanks to the barracks and the Aggressive trait, both are Combat I/Shock Axes! I forgot how much fun having immediate access to all the Level 2 promotions can be. Yea, verily, I shall fear no barb Axemen...
I built Axes instead of Phalanxes at this point in anticipation of the aforementioned barb Axes. Barb mounted units don't show up for a long, long time, so I don't expect to need Phalanxes until my first war. Speaking of barbs, once my Scouts (and 2nd popped Warrior) are done exploring, I'm going to use them as fog-busters in the north.
Once the Axes were in place to protect both cities, I started work on the Pyramids in Athens. 75 turns without chops, whips, or stone. Of course I'm going to use all three to get them built faster than that.
A look at the map:
Sparta is building barracks right now, and they'll finish the same turn that it grows back to 2 pop. I think I'll build Worker - Axe - Settler there and see if I can't beat the Chinese to sigmakan's "red" location on the eastern floodplains. The Worker can help with the improvements and chopping needed for the Pyramids.
I also researched Animal Husbandry in anticipation of the cows in Sparta's fat cross. As some of you surmised, horses appeared to Athens' northeast, within the fat cross of the "green" city site.
I'm researching Writing, with the idea of building an early library in Athens and possibly running a scientist there, as Aelf suggested. I anticipate interrupting the Pyramids a couple of times with other builds and whipping them to completion so the excess hammers go to the 'mids, but we'll have to see how long the library would take. It might wait until after the Pyramids are done.
While the Pyramids get built, Sparta will have to do some of the heavy lifting. I will be competing for land with Mao, since the desert to his southwest will force him to expand directly towards me. I anticipate attacking him long before the Pyramids are complete, especially since I have copper. There's no reason I can't war and build at the same time!
I look forward to your thoughts and comments.
Exploring and building, that's what this set of turns was all about.
My Scouts were going through a cycle of lifting fog, fighting animals, nursing themselves back to health, and exploring some more. It made it slow going, but thanks to having 3 Scouts I now have most of the continent explored.
My northern Scout actually uncovered a goody hut that the Chinese missed!
I popped the hut for...a Warrior.
Again.
Huh.
Well, since my Scout got attacked by Wolves again and had to sit out a few turns in the forest, I decided to send the Warrior off to finish exploring the northeastern snow and tundra. Yeah, he'd be exposed and out in the open, but these Warriors I get from huts are starting to remind me of the red shirts in Star Trek anyway.
(This week, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign What's-his-name beam down to a planet! One of them doesn't come back alive! Who will it be?)
I finished building my third scout in Athens and sent him exploring. Thanks to the barracks in the capital, he started off with a Woodsman I promotion right out of the gate. Good thing, too:
Surviving that attack gave him his Woodsman II promotion.
(Sidebar: I've decided that of all the barb animals, panthers are the worst. Bears and Lions are strong but slow; wolves are fast but weak. But panthers... Too many times I've left a scouting unit out on open ground since I can't see any dangers, and guess what comes rushing out of the jungle at him on the next turn? I hate those things.)
Meanwhile, my northern scout recovered from his third or fourth wolf attack and proved my instincts right about the location of China:
On the next turn, I finished researching a technology that is going to have a big impact on the early part of the game:
Okay, kids, we're pretty much committed now. I just gave up a GP-driven CS Slingshot. Big, pointy-shaped mausoleum of stone, here we come.
To support that end, I founded my second city in sigmakan's "cyan" location. First build: an obelisk. I want to bring the stone on-line ASAP. I sent my worker south to connect the city with a road and to farm the wheat.
As soon as Sparta grew to 2 pop, I whipped the extra citizen away to finish the Obelisk and throw a few hammers in to the next build, a barracks.
I also built two Axes in the capital. Well, I built one and whip-finished him to rush the next one, so both cities have a protector. Thanks to the barracks and the Aggressive trait, both are Combat I/Shock Axes! I forgot how much fun having immediate access to all the Level 2 promotions can be. Yea, verily, I shall fear no barb Axemen...
I built Axes instead of Phalanxes at this point in anticipation of the aforementioned barb Axes. Barb mounted units don't show up for a long, long time, so I don't expect to need Phalanxes until my first war. Speaking of barbs, once my Scouts (and 2nd popped Warrior) are done exploring, I'm going to use them as fog-busters in the north.
Once the Axes were in place to protect both cities, I started work on the Pyramids in Athens. 75 turns without chops, whips, or stone. Of course I'm going to use all three to get them built faster than that.
A look at the map:
Sparta is building barracks right now, and they'll finish the same turn that it grows back to 2 pop. I think I'll build Worker - Axe - Settler there and see if I can't beat the Chinese to sigmakan's "red" location on the eastern floodplains. The Worker can help with the improvements and chopping needed for the Pyramids.
I also researched Animal Husbandry in anticipation of the cows in Sparta's fat cross. As some of you surmised, horses appeared to Athens' northeast, within the fat cross of the "green" city site.
I'm researching Writing, with the idea of building an early library in Athens and possibly running a scientist there, as Aelf suggested. I anticipate interrupting the Pyramids a couple of times with other builds and whipping them to completion so the excess hammers go to the 'mids, but we'll have to see how long the library would take. It might wait until after the Pyramids are done.
While the Pyramids get built, Sparta will have to do some of the heavy lifting. I will be competing for land with Mao, since the desert to his southwest will force him to expand directly towards me. I anticipate attacking him long before the Pyramids are complete, especially since I have copper. There's no reason I can't war and build at the same time!
I look forward to your thoughts and comments.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Definitely agree on Mao, I'd say everytime after Stone is Hooked up that Athen's pop hits 4, whip a empty axe... 25 roll over hammers and an Axe.
(actually I might work on Just Axes and not put Any hammers into the Pyramids until stone is Hooked up.. once you have about ~2-3 CR and ~2-3 Cover Axes, you can wipe the Chinese out... which I think would be really good for establishing a solid territory of your own (especially with Cyan city holding of the Arabs)
One thing, with all that Marble and Stone out there Wonders won't be as much of a Slam dunk as otherwise... fortunately no Industrious civs on your continent. So probably...
Maybe SH and definitely Oracle in Sparta(after it sends out its Settler)
Pyramids, Colossus, (Axes streaming out in the Meantime)
GLibrary in Red City (after it spits out a Settler or two)
and then
Meditation->Priesthood->Pottery (Oracle for M.C., Forg/Pyr G Eng.->Machinery)
[while wiping out the Chinese]
Poly->Monotheism (SH/Oracle G.Prophet to Theology for Theocracy)
[while expanding in your area (everything North or East of Sparta) emphasizing Marbel and Red city]
Alphabet->Literature->CoL->Civil Service
[Building the GL+Nat. Epic in Red City whileTrading for things like Math, Construction, Currency, Monarchy, Iron Working... alll the While Making Red city a Science Megacenter]
and once you have Researched C.S., can go on the Crusades, wiping out the Arabs with probably Theocratic Christian Macemen, from a Bureaucratic Police State (+75% production in Athens)
Or they could be Theocratic Axemen produced Before Bureaucracy, under a Representative Government, that you saved up the Gold and Upgraded to once you hit Civil Service (switching to a Full Specialist Economy at that point with the 100% Gold)
(actually I might work on Just Axes and not put Any hammers into the Pyramids until stone is Hooked up.. once you have about ~2-3 CR and ~2-3 Cover Axes, you can wipe the Chinese out... which I think would be really good for establishing a solid territory of your own (especially with Cyan city holding of the Arabs)
One thing, with all that Marble and Stone out there Wonders won't be as much of a Slam dunk as otherwise... fortunately no Industrious civs on your continent. So probably...
Maybe SH and definitely Oracle in Sparta(after it sends out its Settler)
Pyramids, Colossus, (Axes streaming out in the Meantime)
GLibrary in Red City (after it spits out a Settler or two)
and then
Meditation->Priesthood->Pottery (Oracle for M.C., Forg/Pyr G Eng.->Machinery)
[while wiping out the Chinese]
Poly->Monotheism (SH/Oracle G.Prophet to Theology for Theocracy)
[while expanding in your area (everything North or East of Sparta) emphasizing Marbel and Red city]
Alphabet->Literature->CoL->Civil Service
[Building the GL+Nat. Epic in Red City whileTrading for things like Math, Construction, Currency, Monarchy, Iron Working... alll the While Making Red city a Science Megacenter]
and once you have Researched C.S., can go on the Crusades, wiping out the Arabs with probably Theocratic Christian Macemen, from a Bureaucratic Police State (+75% production in Athens)
Or they could be Theocratic Axemen produced Before Bureaucracy, under a Representative Government, that you saved up the Gold and Upgraded to once you hit Civil Service (switching to a Full Specialist Economy at that point with the 100% Gold)
Hehe, funny that you mention Mao as first target. I looked at the map and it was like if Mao was red flagged and I was a raging bull 
So I definitely agree with taking the northern part of the map. The island itself is very nice. All resources are present except gold. I wonder if you go for a full SE or for a hybrid one with like 50% research rate. I would love to see the latter.
So I definitely agree with taking the northern part of the map. The island itself is very nice. All resources are present except gold. I wonder if you go for a full SE or for a hybrid one with like 50% research rate. I would love to see the latter.
Hans Lemurson
Prince
OH NOES!!! LOOK OUT FOR VICTORIA!!!!!
Financial/Expansive with access to 20 Floodplains and plenty of other room to expand. She will control Fur, Incense, and Wine at the least, might have to jostle for dye with Saladin. Furthermore, don't look for a War between her and Saladin to weaken or slow her down, since they are joined by a river and will share their religions.
Unchecked growth on prosperous land + financial Civ =
Not that you can do anything about it or anything, I'm just making a prediction that Victoria will be your #1 rival and the last Civ you will conquer.
Just sayin'
Financial/Expansive with access to 20 Floodplains and plenty of other room to expand. She will control Fur, Incense, and Wine at the least, might have to jostle for dye with Saladin. Furthermore, don't look for a War between her and Saladin to weaken or slow her down, since they are joined by a river and will share their religions.
Unchecked growth on prosperous land + financial Civ =
Not that you can do anything about it or anything, I'm just making a prediction that Victoria will be your #1 rival and the last Civ you will conquer.
Just sayin'
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
If you are getting close to getting the stone hooked up, I'd suggest taking the pyramids off the build queue for the moment, and instead investing the hammers in Axes and Spears to "pop and overflow" into the after the stone has been connected.
The other thing I would call your attention to is the lack of Happy in your part of the world. That looks to me as though you could have some real problems - gems and silver are your best bets, but you better go get them. Oracle to Metal Casting?
The other thing I would call your attention to is the lack of Happy in your part of the world. That looks to me as though you could have some real problems - gems and silver are your best bets, but you better go get them. Oracle to Metal Casting?
pigswill
fly (one day)
Pyramids and Oracle and axe-stack as priorities? Pick two out of three to improve your odds. VoU suggested in another thread (maybe tongue in cheek?) giving stone to another civ and let them build the pyramids while you build axes to take it from them.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
...and the ALC 'usual suspects' weigh in... 
Only Doc EJ is missing...
Krikkitone, thanks for the overall plan. I will strongly consider it.
Killroyan, I'm definitely leaning towards a hybrid, with specialists in come cities, others cottaged.
Hans--good point about Victoria. Thanks for the warning. So long as I can get to her before she gets Redcoats, I don't anticipate too many problems. I just have to reign in my builder inclinations and go for it.
VoU, you and Krikkitone seem to be thinking along the same lines, of holding off on the Pyramids until the Stone is available. I can probably risk having my Worker road that tile before the borders pop. That event is 10 turns away, IIRC. I can try to time things so the worker is standing on the stone the turn before the borders pop. Meanwhile, I can start building up my invasion force. If I plant the Scouts up in the tundra carefully, barbs shouldn't be much of a problem.
As for happy resources, I have silver, silk, and even gems within my sights. I also don't anticipate having most of my cities growing over their basic happy limit for some time, thanks to
.
Pigswill, thanks for being the voice of restraint. I will probably skip the Oracle this game in favour of the Pyramids and just rely on whipping things (probably Libraries, since I'll have Writing soon) to ensure border pops. I still think the 'mids, Axes, and the Oracle are doable by juggling builds in different cities and, of course, the good ol'. We'll see.
Only Doc EJ is missing...Krikkitone, thanks for the overall plan. I will strongly consider it.
Killroyan, I'm definitely leaning towards a hybrid, with specialists in come cities, others cottaged.
Hans--good point about Victoria. Thanks for the warning. So long as I can get to her before she gets Redcoats, I don't anticipate too many problems. I just have to reign in my builder inclinations and go for it.
VoU, you and Krikkitone seem to be thinking along the same lines, of holding off on the Pyramids until the Stone is available. I can probably risk having my Worker road that tile before the borders pop. That event is 10 turns away, IIRC. I can try to time things so the worker is standing on the stone the turn before the borders pop. Meanwhile, I can start building up my invasion force. If I plant the Scouts up in the tundra carefully, barbs shouldn't be much of a problem.
As for happy resources, I have silver, silk, and even gems within my sights. I also don't anticipate having most of my cities growing over their basic happy limit for some time, thanks to
. Pigswill, thanks for being the voice of restraint. I will probably skip the Oracle this game in favour of the Pyramids and just rely on whipping things (probably Libraries, since I'll have Writing soon) to ensure border pops. I still think the 'mids, Axes, and the Oracle are doable by juggling builds in different cities and, of course, the good ol'
. We'll see.Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
Sisiutil said:...and the ALC 'usual suspects' weigh in...
I'm lurking.
The others seem to have pretty well covered it, and to be honest, I don't think there can be a whole lot of debate about your next few moves.Mao must die. There's really no alternative. Sorry, Mao.
I think we all sort of agreed in the pregame thread that if stone appeared, building The Pyramids and going for either a specialist or hybrid specialist economy was the right choice. It still is.
So really the only question, I guess, is whether to start right away on The Pyramids with no delay or whether to wait for stone. I don't have the numbers here, but I suspect that if you work it out, there's not that much delay from waiting anyway. The 100% bonus from stone is such a huge difference maker that you'll quickly catch up and get it done at almost the same time either way.
Think of it this way ... at worst, each turn of delay before stone is hooked up translates into building The Pyramids 1/2 a turn later. But really it's not even that much, because as your city grows, you'll also be generating more hammers per turn. Probably the overall delay is somewhere along the lines of 1/3 or 2/5 of a turn later for each turn now (I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today ...). So if it takes you 20 turns to hook up stone (just making up a number), you'll probably finish The Pyramids around 6 to 8 turns later. That's probably a decent tradeoff if there are some worthwhile things you can build in the meantime.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Well, it will be 10 turns before Sparta's borders pop. As I said, I can have the road to the stone in place by then. Then it's just a matter of having a Worker on that tile ready to start on the quarry on that turn. How long does it take a Worker to build a quarry at normal game speed? I think it's in the range of 4-6 turns. So, let's say about 15 turns before stone is available. Yeah, I could build a lot in the meantime--probably 2 or 3 Axes out of Athens at least.Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
Sisiutil said:
I'm not sure, which is why I just made up a number.
I usually play Epic speed, so if I remembered the number of turns I'd have to scale it down by 1.5, but I know I'm always surprised at how long quarries take to build.I've looked in the XML before to try to find worker turns, but I can't figure out where to look. Anyway, worst case scenario I think it's 12 in Epic, so it shouldn't be more than 8 in Normal.
Stolen Rutters
Deity
The old "Take a worker from Mao" trick might help cut the delay for stone by a couple turns. (Do they start with a worker at Prince? I can't remember.) Of course, that's assuming you have an axe that can get there in time. I didn't pay much attention to your units available.
Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
Stolen Rutters said:
The AI doesn't start with a worker, but at this point Sisiutil has built at least a workboat and a couple scouts along with perhaps a worker and a barracks and a settler, so I feel confident that Mao has managed to make himself at least a worker.
Even one of those free warriors popped from a goody hut would be good enough to steal a worker. Don't forget this isn't Warlords, so even if the warrior dies, the worker can escape on the same turn he's captured. Also, Mao seems to have quite a lot of forest around Beijing, so there's some cover that might help keep the intrepid warrior alive.
What I'd be more concerned about is giving Mao advance warning of the real attack. As far as I can tell, once you get the AI on a war footing, they start pumping out units as fast as they can. If Sisiutil shows up with 4-6 axemen and catches Mao unaware, that's probably a good enough force to do some serious damage. On the other hand, if Mao has 20-30 turns to prepare his defenses before he needs to fight off anything more than one stray warrior (or axeman if you prefer), that might make for a very difficult war campaign.
pigswill
fly (one day)
It's six turns for a quarry on normal speed (or 3 turns with 2 workers).
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