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Alcohol or Marijunana. Which is worst when overused?
- Thread starter Eukaryote
- Start date
Ecofarm
Deity
It is impossible to overdose smoking pot. Orally, you could consume a basketball size quantity (2lbs, IIRC), but eating that much plant fiber at one time is basically also impossible.
Can't OD on weed. Until someone proves it is possible to eat a basketball size wad of plant matter in one sitting, I maintain - impossible.
7 grams of weed (1/4 oz) lasts a habitual smoker about a week? One could probably smoke ~4 grams in a day if they really tried. And by that I mean almost constant smoking even when the marginal affect is virtually (and even literally) nothing.
Spoiler :
Some places will put you in prison for 10 or more years for a first offence (3rd world). People of high moral and ethical standards who have not harmed anyone languish in prison because of 3 strikes and min-man. It is wrong. It is our generation's moral obligation to free our brothers.
greenpeace
Peacelord
Even though I'm only quoting one of your posts I'm responding to both.
First of all the market for marijuana isn't that great in the baby demographic. Second, none. I decided to ignore all the reports of insignificant death toll and search very hard to find this figure. Its been 45 minutes and I have seen no website that reports anything significantly different. That is the last time I'm going to go searching for a link that someone else should provide.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Bah, what the hell, I'll just post the whole thing.
If each American smoked 7.5 grams of weed a year, how many deaths would we get? Zero. Well, probably a few accidents here and there due to people driving while stoned, but still pretty close to zero.
If each American smoked 7.5 grams of tobacco a year--how many deaths? Zero.
From a random web site I grabbed a few numbers that say the average marijuana user smokes anywhere from 3-4 joints a week to a couple a day. Figure one joint a day just for the hell of it. Now, if every American smoked one joint a day, how many deaths? From any cause besides accidents, I mean? Probably none. If every American smoked one cigarette a day, how many deaths? Probably none.
See? Tobacco and weed are indistinguishable from each other at the usage levels we see out here in the real world. There is one pair of numbers we're missing, of course. When people claim that we hardly ever see weed kill anybody? If people used tobacco in the same amounts and frequency they use weed, tobacco would hardly ever kill anybody either. In fact, we would probably see ZERO deaths from tobacco nationwide. So these repeated claims that "weed never kills anybody" are useless.
The average smoker does a pack a day or so. Around 20 grams of tobackey. If the average American smoked 20 grams of weed a day? (Some idiot posted at me that nobody ever does--well, I don't care. What if they DID? How many deaths? That's something they never test for in a lab) This is the part that doesn't have an answer.
Here's an interesting little treat. No idea about the credibility, this is just for fun (fun for me, disturbing to any marijuana advocate because it suggests that weed is a good deal MORE deadly than tobacco.......)
If each American smoked 7.5 grams of weed a year, how many deaths would we get? Zero. Well, probably a few accidents here and there due to people driving while stoned, but still pretty close to zero.
If each American smoked 7.5 grams of tobacco a year--how many deaths? Zero.
Spoiler :
From a random web site I grabbed a few numbers that say the average marijuana user smokes anywhere from 3-4 joints a week to a couple a day. Figure one joint a day just for the hell of it. Now, if every American smoked one joint a day, how many deaths? From any cause besides accidents, I mean? Probably none. If every American smoked one cigarette a day, how many deaths? Probably none.
See? Tobacco and weed are indistinguishable from each other at the usage levels we see out here in the real world. There is one pair of numbers we're missing, of course. When people claim that we hardly ever see weed kill anybody? If people used tobacco in the same amounts and frequency they use weed, tobacco would hardly ever kill anybody either. In fact, we would probably see ZERO deaths from tobacco nationwide. So these repeated claims that "weed never kills anybody" are useless.
The average smoker does a pack a day or so. Around 20 grams of tobackey. If the average American smoked 20 grams of weed a day? (Some idiot posted at me that nobody ever does--well, I don't care. What if they DID? How many deaths? That's something they never test for in a lab) This is the part that doesn't have an answer.
Here's an interesting little treat. No idea about the credibility, this is just for fun (fun for me, disturbing to any marijuana advocate because it suggests that weed is a good deal MORE deadly than tobacco.......)
Divide 23,000 joints into 11 years, and you get what? Just under six joints a day. Or, about one-third the intake of a pack-a-day tobacco smoker.......
CaptainF
The Professional Poster
You post some half-ass rant from some slob and his blog, and point to it as evidence? Hell, that dude didn't even cite his sources.
How am I supposed to believe this nonsense?
How am I supposed to believe this nonsense?
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
The audience wants to know why the focus shifted to tabacco vs marijuana.
About Mr. Lee Maisey:
The International Association for Cannabis as Medicine (IACM) said that the level of cannabinoids in the deceased's blood was equivalent to 1 or 2 joints, and that the death was not caused by cannabis.
On 20 January 2004 the newspaper Daily Telegraph reported that cannabis was blamed as cause of death of a 36 year old British man. However, a review of the toxicological data and autopsy report by a Swiss expert revealed that there is no reason to assume that the sudden death of Lee Maisey in August 2003 was due to cannabis.
Mr Maisey smoked six cannabis cigarettes a day for 11 years, which was reported in some newspapers to be "excessive". He had complained of a headache on 22 August last year and was found dead at his home next morning. Michael Howells, the local coroner, who led the investigation of the death cause, said Mr Maisey was free from disease and had not drunk alcohol for at least 48 hours. "High levels of cannabinoids" had been found in his blood. The report led to new warnings about the dangers of the drug. Dr. John Henry, a professor of toxicology at Imperial College, London, said: "I have not seen anything like this before. It corrects the argument that cannabis cannot kill anybody."
The Federal Health Ministry of Switzerland asked Dr. Rudolf Brenneisen, a professor at the department for clinical research at the University of Bern, to review the data of this case. Dr. Brenneisen said that the data of the toxicological analysis and collected by autopsy were "scanty and not conclusive" and that the conclusion death by cannabis intoxication was "not legitimate".
According to the toxicological analysis of a British laboratory (Forensic Alliance) Mr Maisey's blood contained 130 nanograms per milliliter (ng/ml) of the THC metabolite THC-COOH. THC could not be detected due to analytical problems. Dr. Franjo Grotenhermen of the nova-Institute in Cologne said: "A concentration of 130 ng/ml THC-COOH in blood is a moderate concentration, which may be observed some hours after the use of one or two joints. Heavy regular use of cannabis easily results in THC-COOH concentrations of above 500 ng/ml. Many people use much more cannabis than Mr Maisey did, without any negative consequences."
About Mr. Lee Maisey:
The International Association for Cannabis as Medicine (IACM) said that the level of cannabinoids in the deceased's blood was equivalent to 1 or 2 joints, and that the death was not caused by cannabis.
On 20 January 2004 the newspaper Daily Telegraph reported that cannabis was blamed as cause of death of a 36 year old British man. However, a review of the toxicological data and autopsy report by a Swiss expert revealed that there is no reason to assume that the sudden death of Lee Maisey in August 2003 was due to cannabis.
Mr Maisey smoked six cannabis cigarettes a day for 11 years, which was reported in some newspapers to be "excessive". He had complained of a headache on 22 August last year and was found dead at his home next morning. Michael Howells, the local coroner, who led the investigation of the death cause, said Mr Maisey was free from disease and had not drunk alcohol for at least 48 hours. "High levels of cannabinoids" had been found in his blood. The report led to new warnings about the dangers of the drug. Dr. John Henry, a professor of toxicology at Imperial College, London, said: "I have not seen anything like this before. It corrects the argument that cannabis cannot kill anybody."
The Federal Health Ministry of Switzerland asked Dr. Rudolf Brenneisen, a professor at the department for clinical research at the University of Bern, to review the data of this case. Dr. Brenneisen said that the data of the toxicological analysis and collected by autopsy were "scanty and not conclusive" and that the conclusion death by cannabis intoxication was "not legitimate".
According to the toxicological analysis of a British laboratory (Forensic Alliance) Mr Maisey's blood contained 130 nanograms per milliliter (ng/ml) of the THC metabolite THC-COOH. THC could not be detected due to analytical problems. Dr. Franjo Grotenhermen of the nova-Institute in Cologne said: "A concentration of 130 ng/ml THC-COOH in blood is a moderate concentration, which may be observed some hours after the use of one or two joints. Heavy regular use of cannabis easily results in THC-COOH concentrations of above 500 ng/ml. Many people use much more cannabis than Mr Maisey did, without any negative consequences."
Beaver Cleaver
Warlord
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 289
You know what is so funny about this guy? It is that it is obviously easy to debunk his flawed arguments.
One example:
One example:
If I was driving while smoking a burning cigarette, and then suddenly drop it on my lap while oblivious to my driving due to the pain it makes when the fire is burning on my flesh, can that constitute it being the cause of my accident?
nivi
Call me Ishmael
Hey, lets ban saffron! 20 grams a day is highly toxic, will defiantly kill you in short order! So what if nobody ever eats that amount, if it's toxicity is much much much higher that tobacco, that it must be worse!
Are you seriously not getting it that USAGE is very important in determining how dangerous something is?
bender19
Warlord
The buzz from a cigarette only last a few minutes, hence there's numerous pack a day smokers. The buzz from a single joint is substantially harder hitting and lasts substantially longer. Hence usage of tobacco is much greater per user. Hence if you legalize marijuana you won't suddenly get people smoking 20 joints a day.
You've probably never had a joint, so you wouldn't know tobacco and marijuana have substantially different affects and are thus used in different quantities.
You've probably never had a joint, so you wouldn't know tobacco and marijuana have substantially different affects and are thus used in different quantities.
Berzerker
Deity
BC
You mean if tobacco smokers consumed an amount equal to the pot smokers? Real world usage rates?
Thats true, but the two drugs are different and act differently on the body. The tobacco (nicotine) "high" is short-lived and needs re-enforcing much more often. In people who have an addiction, the craving can wake them up at night to have another smoke. Pot doesn't do that, so your comparison is irrelevant. And if you dont think a good night sleep isn't that important, well
it is... I wouldn't be surprised if moderate to heavy tobacco use really takes its toll when you cant even sleep 6-7 hours without smoking. Its time to quit when you cant get a normal night's sleep.
Why are they useless? Its a measure of safety. We wouldn't say tobacco never kills anybody. We know it does, because smokers in the real world dont consume the smaller levels associated with pot use.
Speaking for us idiots since I told you that, you dont care about real world usage rates? You dont care about facts? Just yer hypothetical? And we're to guess at this since it is purely hypothetical, outside the realm of reality?
They dont, we're living in the real world with real world usage rates.
We wouldn't know until everyone was smoking that much pot. We already ~know how many tobacco smokers die from that amount...
No, what they test in labs are mice genetically bred to get cancer VERY easily and then they subject those mice to all sorts of stuff and the stuff they think triggered cancer is declared carcinogenic.
Its funny you mention what they test in labs when thats the only argument I've heard about pot causing cancer - lab mice. But in the real world we dont see an obvious connection whereas we do with tobacco. Is that because of the chemicals in both, or the amount smoked? Both? I dont know, what in tobacco causes the cancer? I dont think either THC or Nicotine causes cancer.
You mean if tobacco smokers consumed an amount equal to the pot smokers? Real world usage rates?
Thats true, but the two drugs are different and act differently on the body. The tobacco (nicotine) "high" is short-lived and needs re-enforcing much more often. In people who have an addiction, the craving can wake them up at night to have another smoke. Pot doesn't do that, so your comparison is irrelevant. And if you dont think a good night sleep isn't that important, well
it is... I wouldn't be surprised if moderate to heavy tobacco use really takes its toll when you cant even sleep 6-7 hours without smoking. Its time to quit when you cant get a normal night's sleep.Why are they useless? Its a measure of safety. We wouldn't say tobacco never kills anybody. We know it does, because smokers in the real world dont consume the smaller levels associated with pot use.
Speaking for us idiots since I told you that, you dont care about real world usage rates? You dont care about facts? Just yer hypothetical? And we're to guess at this since it is purely hypothetical, outside the realm of reality?
They dont, we're living in the real world with real world usage rates.
We wouldn't know until everyone was smoking that much pot. We already ~know how many tobacco smokers die from that amount...
No, what they test in labs are mice genetically bred to get cancer VERY easily and then they subject those mice to all sorts of stuff and the stuff they think triggered cancer is declared carcinogenic.
Its funny you mention what they test in labs when thats the only argument I've heard about pot causing cancer - lab mice. But in the real world we dont see an obvious connection whereas we do with tobacco. Is that because of the chemicals in both, or the amount smoked? Both? I dont know, what in tobacco causes the cancer? I dont think either THC or Nicotine causes cancer.
lovett
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,570
No it doesn't...
Incidentally, You do know that tobacco and canabis are different drugs? Right?
That people smoke cannabis to become intoxicated, whereas people smoke cigarette for a little relaxation, due in large part due to an addiction?
greenpeace
Peacelord
Spoiler :
Ecofarm
Deity
I don't care what you divide into how many... 6 joints per day?! Wow! The potheads I know do not smoke that much. Further, it depends on the filter. Water works much better than cigarette filters.
20 joints is way worse than 20 cigarettes, mostly because of heat. They are like 5x or more worse. But a few bong hits through icewater of the world's finest is not going to have noticable negative affects. You see, as with most issues - education is key. People need to stop smoking dirt regs in paper and start vaping crips.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
If I said "marijuana never kills anybody by overdose", you would believe it instantly.
You don't actually care what the source is. Very few of you do. You care WHAT is being said. If it's what you want to hear, it's truth. If it's not, it's not.
I personally give that guy's blog a little extra cred, for the very simple reason that he's a PRO-weed person but he was willing to jump the fence and say "okay, okay, marijuana can kill people". And, I find it interesting that the incident he quoted was a death as a result of smoking about one-fourth the product that your average smoker inhales.
But, links aside--real life trumps ANYTHING you can get off the web, and you all know that my previous post--which is nothing but real-life examples--is all true. Nobody ever overdoses on weed? Nobody ever overdoses on tobacco either. Weed hardly ever kills people? Neither does tobacco if you only smoke it three times a week. All this talk about weed being harmless? The real world shows that the two drugs are impossible to distinguish from each other.
Partially, this is due to dicey statistics--when one drug is smoked two hundred times as much as the other, that causes a lot of problems.
I was already on about weed vs. alcohol (per the thread title and the OP) a while back. ALL drugs with sedative effects are known to impair reflexes and judgement; all sedatives are known to cause an increased number of accidents on the job and behind the wheel.Zig said:
But weed vs. tobacco makes for an easier comparison. Based on the above and what little valuable info I've been able to glean from the huge volume of other posts, weed is somewhere between alcohol and tobacco in its lethal effects. Possibly weed is as dangerous as both combined, but I'm not sure of that.
Edit: By the way, folks, there are numerous studies suggesting (this is not known for sure) that a single joint is as bad for you as an entire pack of cigs. Don't want me to be comparing the amount smoked by weight, huh? You might want to be taking that back........
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Same answer as the last 825 times:
Are you seriously not getting that USAGE of weed is very rare BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL?
greenpeace
Peacelord
In people who smoke weed extremely often such that they couldn't use it any more because their body would force them into sleep, they still don't die. I could give you the same links that you don't actually respond to, if you want.
I would only believe that because all evidence supports that claim. Do you think I'm being paid by teh evol fashist pro-legal corporations? Do you think I have a personal stake in this? As you'll see in my sig, I don't wish to take it, and so it wouldn't affect me either way.
. I can't tell if you, Mr. Marijuana-and-tobacco-are-the-same-drug-and-marijuana-causes-5,000 deaths-a-year-and-legalization-will-result-in-a-massive-increase-in-marijuana-use-and-marijuana-is-worst-than-alcohol-and-tobacco-combined, are being serious. If you care so much about sources, why don't you give me a bunch of sources, like I have given you, instead of making me search for an hour to find non-existant sources.Perhaps you should read the top of the blog where it says "You can believe what you want to believe, but it still won't change the shape of the Earth." In other words, his political views don't matter when he is saying some fact without any evidence to support it.
What we get off the web is studies of "real-life" examples.
Again, tobacco kills, marijuana doesn't. You still have not refuted that with any real evidence/sources.
The real world shows that smoking 3 cigarettes a week is extremely improbable due to the craving that cigarettes cause. It also shows that smoking a pack or two of joints a day is not actually possible for the vast majority of people regardless of legality issues, and the closest to that amount, that is the ultra-heavy users, that can be done does not result in significant amount of death.
These are two completely different drugs. In one, smoking one or two packs a day everyday is near impossible for most (marijuana), in the second, its nearly impossible NOT to smoke one or two packs a day (cigarettes).
Lets say that as soon as you intook a single molecule of THC that you immediately got a craving to go in a car, drive it at 100 kilometers and hour and then fall asleep, you still haven't even shown with any concise evidence that usage would increase with legalization making the orgininal hypothetical mute.
Thats not to say weed has that affect.
What evidence shows you that the people who intake just about the most weed that is practically possible
There are studies showing that people who smoke weed are generally
Sexy
Hunk
Orators
Who
Prevent
Really
Outrageous
Occurences and
Farces
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Unless they're asleep while their car is doing forty miles an hour.
If they only killed themselves when they used the stuff, I'd be fine and dandy with it. A little chlorine for a gene pool that badly needs it. Same with saffron, Nivi--it only kills the person who uses it.
That's why I have a serious problem with alcohol, tobacco, weed, cocaine, and all other drugs. Because they turn you into a hazard that threatens ME.
--well, actually the OTHER reason is because the brain is the only thing that makes humans special, and I am violently opposed to anything that causes the brain to MALFUNCTION--I need to say it that way, because some stupid fool will immediately go "sex alters the brain" if I don't get the wording exactly right.
Well, then, my roommate in college was extremely improbable.
I did.
greenpeace
Peacelord
Show me a link that prooves there is a significant coorelation between marijuana use and car accidents. If you show that annoying government fact that says that in 10% of car accidents the people involved tested positive for marijuana. The reason that does not proove a coorelation is for three main reasons:
1. Marijuana is detectable anywhere from one day to about three weeks after its effects are non-existant.
2. If I remember correctly, the statistics did not mention whether or not alcohol was also present (since that would be a major cause).
3. Combined with 1 and 2, the percentage of people who smoke marijuana is comparable to the amount of people cited in that statistic.
Close but no cigar, cigars are bad for youWell, then, my roommate in college was extremely improbable.
I did.
(haha, I said that alot when I was little).
BasketCase
Username sez it all
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