Oruc
Reactionary
Kal'thzar said:
That was my way of saying he is right, you shouldnt take what I post literally.
Alternate History Thread II...
- Thread starter Xen
- Start date
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That was my way of saying he is right, you shouldnt take what I post literally.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Ok. For my NES...that will probably not happen for several months, because I want to write a good timeline...I'll either do the Oriental World althistory (Humanity evolves in Indochina instead of Africa, etc) or the Fall of Lacedaimon althistory, (Sparta loses in the Peloponessian War, etc) whichever seems more fun.
I'll probably post the timeline here when I get around to doing it, so it can be picked apart, argued about, insulted, and generally improved.
Oh, it'll use the Two City System, too. Not sure about rules yet, that'll come later. A moderately modified das set will probably be used.
I'll probably post the timeline here when I get around to doing it, so it can be picked apart, argued about, insulted, and generally improved.
Oh, it'll use the Two City System, too. Not sure about rules yet, that'll come later. A moderately modified das set will probably be used.
Insane_Panda
Deity
I think I'll take Vietnam instead of the Gaelic Empire. It will be interesting for me and will take less time.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Probably. A bit ambitious though, Dis made a better effort with all of his confusing culture diagrams.
The rough synopsis. A lot has to be expanded and changed:
The initial period of Classical Malaysian civilization/city states could be followed by a strong, centralized Rome-type state (based in Burma, perhaps?) dominating as far afield as Australia and Mongolia, but then collapsing due to barbarian invasions from Tibet, India and Japan.
As Southeast Asia moves into the Dark Ages, new civilizations emerge in the Mediterranean.
A rapidly growing Indian state could act as an Abbasid Caliphate of sorts, spreading a radical form of evangelist Hinduism but also preserving and spreading knowledge between East and West, and keeping the trade routes open.
The growth of Greece as a maritime empire could begin now. Mayans develop further and create hegemonic civilizations with massive technological progress. But then a religious schism (human sacrifice/no human sacrifice?) similar to the Reformation could fragment everything. Baja Californian state acts as Portugal, mapping out S. America and founding colonies in Hawaii.
Northern Europe remains barbaric, covered in forests. NES will commence around 0 CE.
And the CZ map (thanks das) :
The rough synopsis. A lot has to be expanded and changed:
The initial period of Classical Malaysian civilization/city states could be followed by a strong, centralized Rome-type state (based in Burma, perhaps?) dominating as far afield as Australia and Mongolia, but then collapsing due to barbarian invasions from Tibet, India and Japan.
As Southeast Asia moves into the Dark Ages, new civilizations emerge in the Mediterranean.
A rapidly growing Indian state could act as an Abbasid Caliphate of sorts, spreading a radical form of evangelist Hinduism but also preserving and spreading knowledge between East and West, and keeping the trade routes open.
The growth of Greece as a maritime empire could begin now. Mayans develop further and create hegemonic civilizations with massive technological progress. But then a religious schism (human sacrifice/no human sacrifice?) similar to the Reformation could fragment everything. Baja Californian state acts as Portugal, mapping out S. America and founding colonies in Hawaii.
Northern Europe remains barbaric, covered in forests. NES will commence around 0 CE.
And the CZ map (thanks das) :
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
Given that I'm leaving, I allow my timelines into the public domain. Though they're technically there anyway. Use them as you wish.
Swissempire
Poet Jester
@Thayli, sounds promising. If you need any help, i will gladly help with ideas. You could have a buddist split cause the Reformation in Asia, and in Mesoland have the religions split, with the no sacrfice convertin NORth America, and Sacrifice staying strong in Mesoland
das
Regeneration In Process
IMHO the Oriental World's charm was that it was meant to be a "Fresh-start with a Twist" rather than a fully-developed althist.
das
Regeneration In Process
OOC: This is merely a rather short (two-part, unless I get inspired) scenario, much like all my 20th century ones, but meh. Maybe someone could make a NES out of it one day... Anyway, I'd really appreciate it if Panda were to finish the 1914 map soon, as I need it to do a map for this one.
Btw, I'd really welcome some constructive criticism here - 20th century isn't exactly my specialty.
IC:
On March 3rd (16th) 1917, a brick fell on the head of a drunken (after celebrating the abdication of Nicholas II) Aleksandr Fyodorovich Kerensky, knocking him out cold. "The last thing he saw before everything went dark" (c) was a grinning polar bear on a building from the roof of which the aforementioned brick fell. Naturally, Kerensky later thought this to be a mere hallucination caused by the shock; this careless dismissal has contributed to the defeat of the late 23rd century Poacher Rising, but then again, these puny humans were doomed from the start, not to mention that this is a needless digression.
Anyway, as usual when I (or any other althistorian NESer for that matter) say something about an assault of a polar bear or of a penguin on a person of any historical importance, this means that said person will undergo subtle (at first!) changes that will affect the course of world history in a most serious fashion. This would not be an exception, as Kerensky became more cunning and ruthless. Combined with his OTL oratorical skills and capacity for political intrigue... it made a most fearsome combination, for the lack of a better word. When on May 5th (18th) of the same year the Provisional Government of Russia suffered its first crisis due to Pavel Milyukov, the foreign minister, re-comitting to the old, pre-revolutionary war aims (in case you haven't noticed, all this was occuring on the background of World War One) and Knyaz Lvov's government fell apart, Kerensky was there to pick up the pieces, becoming prime minister. Having supported Milyukov's initiative at first, he has remained commited to it, though not as fanatically.
To maintain de facto control over Russia, Kerensky resorted to the classical (with some modifications) "carrot and stick" methods. As the carrot, he continued the social and civil reforms he had commenced as the minister of justice; while the stick was aimed against his political enemies. Using the May Riots of the same old 1917 as an excuse along with some fairly questionable evidence of planned treason and collaboration with the Germans, he ordered arrests of leading Left eSeRs and Bolsheviks, in which he was much assisted by ex-terrorist now-military commissar and deputy minister of war, Boris Viktorovich Savinkov, an important eSeR of the right wing. Meanwhile, general Lavr Georgievich Kornilov, who gave up on trying to enforce order and disciplinne in the revolutionary Petrograd and asked for a command in Galicia, was put in control of the infamous wide-front Kornilov Offensive against Germany and Austria-Hungary, in July. Despite the oratory of Kerensky, despite Kornilov's efforts to restore military disciplinne and despite good preparations, the general offensive (which saw the first Russian "tanks" used, to not much effect for the most part) has soon bogged down after the first three days with many casualties as the army begun to disintegrate anyway. His control slipping, Kornilov had to consent to grant more control over the military to Savinkov, who immediately begun re-organizing it along "revolutionary lines", much to Kornilov's and Brusilov's disgust. Disciplinne was lessened, and this kept the soldiers in line... for now.
At that point, the army was quite weak, and all that was required from the Germans was a good blow. But, firstly, the Germans were not aware of just how bad the Russian situation was, and, secondly, they were busy on the Western Front. The Russian offensive that came later than in OTL but was more thorough has caused some changes here as well; the Entente forces suffered even more than in OTL, but still advanced; and in July, synchronously with Kornilov, launched a major offensive in Flanders that culminated in the bloody Battle of Passchendaele, while further south the French probbed German defenses and advanced where feasable. Anyway, at Passchendaele, Haig eventually came out victorious, having forced the Germans to retreat from westernmost Belgium, but only at the price of horrible casualties that prevented any further advances in the year.
And by the time the forces were ready to press on further, it was no longer really needed. Germany, embattled on all fronts, was making its enemies bleed for what few inches they had gained, but clearly, this could not go on forever for simple economical reasons; but as if that was not enough, Germany's allies were collapsing. The Ottomans were gradually being pushed out of Armenia, Palestine and Iraq - of what few territories there they still held. The Germanophile Greek king was overthrown in favour of a Venizelian republic. Bulgaria, much like Russia, only needed one moderately-succesful enemy offensive to fall. Austria-Hungary was also holding out only due to the German troops there.
While on the other hand, American troops were en route to Europe, Kerensky's Russia turned out much more stable than the Germans thought it to be and, unbeknowest to them yet, the Polish leaders were negotiating with the Russians. Autumn 1917 saw several new Entente offensives away from the Western Front - the Turks were routed and thrown into full flight on all fronts, Bulgaria was forced to surrender (soon after, by a separate peace, signing away its access to the Aegean Sea to the Greeks) and Jyzef Pilsudski (who was not arrested due to the different situation in the Eastern Front), started a mutiny of Polish Legions right at the front that allowed Boris Savinkov to make an unexpected new breakthrough in Galicia and even Belarus (as some of the German forces were diverted westwards for a planned offensive). This offensive, too, was stopped, but not before Vilnius and Lvov were in Russian hands again. The Czechoslovakian Legion has also distinguished itself in this offensive with its ferocity in combat, encouraging a Czech rebellion back at home.
Jubilant that he now had a victory, although a one rather lesser than what he has hoped for, Kerensky forced through some more radical reforms (providing for a gradual land reform in the favour of the peasants), secretly arranged an accident for Kornilov who was getting increasingly unreliable, arrested some more opposition leaders for that and the usual stuff and then signed the controversial Treaty of Minsk with Jyzef Pilsudski and Roman Dmowski (of the pro-Entente Polish National Committee), promising Poland full independence and the support for Polish western claims, in exchange for Poland resigning all claims to territories east of the old Russian Kingdom of Poland's borders (so Galicia was going to be divided into two halves, a Russian one and a Polish one). Plans were made for a coordinated Russo-Polish push towards Brest-Litovsk in 1918, but by then, the war has already ended.
As if the previous German situation was not bad enough, now it got even worse. Austria-Hungary soon begun to fall apart altogether. Encouraged by this, the Romanians rejected all peace endeavours and incited rebellions among their ethnic brethren in Transylvania. In the Reichstag, Matthias Erzberger and his followers were joined by much of the army staff in demands for an armistice; himself, Erzberger, as the leader of a "democratic" coalition of the Zentrum, the Social-Democrats and the People's Progressive Party, managed to persuade the Kaiser, with the help of the staff and some "hints", to appoint him Kanzler and to commence armistice negotiations. They dragged on, true, but warfare died down again and eventually, an armistice was hammered out, to the chagrin of those of the German general staff that saw it fit to surrender.
Then, at Versailles, the peace negotiations begun. At one point, they broke down at Kaiser Wilhelm II's insistance, as enthusiasm died down in the face of the harsh terms demanded... but soon, the Germans had to return to the negotiations table again, as the unthinkable had happened - the German troops, having been assured of peace coming soon and having become more lax and peaceful during the Armistice, mutinied when preparations for a potential resumption of warfare befun. That the fleet mutinied as well and that riots broke out in major cities was less surprising as compared to that. Though all this could be put down, it would take time and troops, and even then there was, for the first time, a risk that soldiers will join the civilian rioters. There clearly was no going back now.
But while peace negotiations went on, war has continued elsewhere - most notably, the Ottoman Empire continued to crumble. Although Mustafa Kemal had crushed the Russian offensive in Armenia and retook some ground there, that was the only bright spot as rebellions commenced in Kurdistan and the remaining Turkish-held Arab territories, Enver Pasha and the rest of CUP begun clearly preparing to flee and the British taking over Syria. Soon enough, the Ottomans had to request armistice as well, though it as clear as day that they were doomed. As for Austria-Hungary, the Armistice did not save it from fighting; although the Russians ceased their offensive operations and agreed, as a gesture of good will (and to lessen the Habsburg suspicions), to dismiss the Czechoslovak and the Polish Legions, said Legions, in good order and with clandestine Russian aid, soon attacked in Galicia on their own, staring a guerrila war that soon spread all the way to the Sudetes. When Vienna complained, Petrograd pointed out that these organizations had nothing to do with Russia, and that Russia had no control of them whatsoever; but if Vienna really wants the Russians to put an end to it, the Russians would gladly oblige it by sending in troops to help keep order. The Austrians, ofcourse, shut up at that and tried to defeat the rebels... but then, new risings begun in Transylvania and Bosnia (Romania and Serbia were evacuated as per the terms of the Armistice). The Danubean Monarchy was aflame.
All that somewhat changed the text of the final Treaty of Versailles (as released on March 4th 1918), as had US president Woodrow Wilson's obstinant meddling that was, for the most part, ignored. Kerensky meddled as well, suggesting that Austria-Hungary should simply be destroyed and replaced with a "New Eastern Europe". Germans vehemently opposed this, but it was clear to them by then that Austria-Hungary, at best, would lose well over a half of its territory. Ottoman Empire would cease to exist. Germany will survive... but will also lose much, so much that Kaiser Wilhelm II shaved off his moustache and went in exile to Netherlands (possibly the rumours that he was to be put on trial encouraged this as well). Thankfully, the Dutch queen did not agree to his extradition...
In truth, however, the demands for a trial were just there for the show, as were many other formalities and tokens in the Treaty of Versailles. All the things that mattered there came out of sheer pragmatism. The German colonial empire was liquidated and partitioned between Britain, France, Japan and to a small extent Belgium (much to the ire of USA whose colonial ambitions in the Pacific were thwarted just as the idealistic intervention of Woodrow Wilson; this has greatly influenced the American withdrawal from world affairs outside of the Western Hemisphere for the next decade). Severe limits (though not as severe as in OTL) were put on the German army, as for navy it had to be turned over to the Entente, chiefly to the UK. France took over Lorraine-Alsace and occupied Saar; Germans evacuated Belgium and Luxembourg. The rest of Rhineland remained German, but was demilitarized. Denmark took, by plebiscite, the northern half of Schleswig-Holstein. A republic was installed in Germany, Matthias Erzburger forming a provisional government. A Polish Republic was declared with Roman Dmowski and Jyzef Pilsudski forming a sort of a shaky biumvirate; it gained, beyond the Russian Congress Poland, Krakow, Western Galicia, Poznan, the Danzig Corridor and, eventually, a de facto protectorate over the Free City of Danzig itself. Austria-Hungary survived (with army limitations), but had to grant independence to Czechoslovakia, cede South Tyrol, Istria and Dalmatia to Italy, cede Galicia to be partitioned between Russia and Poland, cede South Transylvania and South Bukovina to Romania and cede Bosnia-Herzigovina to Serbia (which entered a personal union with Montenegro). Russia officially became a Republic, inheriting, however, all the responsibilities of the old Imperial government, including the debts (and the territorial claims, on the brigher side - Russia took over Eastern Galicia and North Bukovina). Finally, the Ottoman Empire was destroyed and replaced with a rump Turkish Sultanate, with the capital in Ankara and control over some parts of Anatolia. Greece, which barely had time to even have a few skirmishes with the Turks, was arguably the biggest winner here, adding to itself Thrace and the region of Smyrna. After much debate, Constantinople, the Straits and the Marmara Sea were turned into a "Zone of the Straits", under international control. Italy received a protectorate over the south-western corner of Anatolia. Russia established a protectorate over Western Armenia. A Kurdistani Republic - effectively a buffer state between Russia and the Entente's new Middle Eastern Possessions - was set up. Lebanon, Syria and eastern Anatolia (south of Kurdistan) became French protectorates; the British took Palestine, Transjordan, Iraq and Hejaz as protectorates.
Much trickier was a matter of finance. The UK, France, Belgium and Russia wanted the Central Powers to pay heavy reparations; USA did not care as much about Germany, in truth, but wanted the UK and France to pay out their debts; and the French wanted the Russians to pay out theirs. After many concessions and compromises from all sides... nothing really was achieved, though Russia attained a reduction of its debts by consenting to the creation of the aforementioned Zone of the Straits.
The world has entered the post-war age. The age of even more war.
Btw, I'd really welcome some constructive criticism here - 20th century isn't exactly my specialty.
IC:
On March 3rd (16th) 1917, a brick fell on the head of a drunken (after celebrating the abdication of Nicholas II) Aleksandr Fyodorovich Kerensky, knocking him out cold. "The last thing he saw before everything went dark" (c) was a grinning polar bear on a building from the roof of which the aforementioned brick fell. Naturally, Kerensky later thought this to be a mere hallucination caused by the shock; this careless dismissal has contributed to the defeat of the late 23rd century Poacher Rising, but then again, these puny humans were doomed from the start, not to mention that this is a needless digression.
Anyway, as usual when I (or any other althistorian NESer for that matter) say something about an assault of a polar bear or of a penguin on a person of any historical importance, this means that said person will undergo subtle (at first!) changes that will affect the course of world history in a most serious fashion. This would not be an exception, as Kerensky became more cunning and ruthless. Combined with his OTL oratorical skills and capacity for political intrigue... it made a most fearsome combination, for the lack of a better word. When on May 5th (18th) of the same year the Provisional Government of Russia suffered its first crisis due to Pavel Milyukov, the foreign minister, re-comitting to the old, pre-revolutionary war aims (in case you haven't noticed, all this was occuring on the background of World War One) and Knyaz Lvov's government fell apart, Kerensky was there to pick up the pieces, becoming prime minister. Having supported Milyukov's initiative at first, he has remained commited to it, though not as fanatically.
To maintain de facto control over Russia, Kerensky resorted to the classical (with some modifications) "carrot and stick" methods. As the carrot, he continued the social and civil reforms he had commenced as the minister of justice; while the stick was aimed against his political enemies. Using the May Riots of the same old 1917 as an excuse along with some fairly questionable evidence of planned treason and collaboration with the Germans, he ordered arrests of leading Left eSeRs and Bolsheviks, in which he was much assisted by ex-terrorist now-military commissar and deputy minister of war, Boris Viktorovich Savinkov, an important eSeR of the right wing. Meanwhile, general Lavr Georgievich Kornilov, who gave up on trying to enforce order and disciplinne in the revolutionary Petrograd and asked for a command in Galicia, was put in control of the infamous wide-front Kornilov Offensive against Germany and Austria-Hungary, in July. Despite the oratory of Kerensky, despite Kornilov's efforts to restore military disciplinne and despite good preparations, the general offensive (which saw the first Russian "tanks" used, to not much effect for the most part) has soon bogged down after the first three days with many casualties as the army begun to disintegrate anyway. His control slipping, Kornilov had to consent to grant more control over the military to Savinkov, who immediately begun re-organizing it along "revolutionary lines", much to Kornilov's and Brusilov's disgust. Disciplinne was lessened, and this kept the soldiers in line... for now.
At that point, the army was quite weak, and all that was required from the Germans was a good blow. But, firstly, the Germans were not aware of just how bad the Russian situation was, and, secondly, they were busy on the Western Front. The Russian offensive that came later than in OTL but was more thorough has caused some changes here as well; the Entente forces suffered even more than in OTL, but still advanced; and in July, synchronously with Kornilov, launched a major offensive in Flanders that culminated in the bloody Battle of Passchendaele, while further south the French probbed German defenses and advanced where feasable. Anyway, at Passchendaele, Haig eventually came out victorious, having forced the Germans to retreat from westernmost Belgium, but only at the price of horrible casualties that prevented any further advances in the year.
And by the time the forces were ready to press on further, it was no longer really needed. Germany, embattled on all fronts, was making its enemies bleed for what few inches they had gained, but clearly, this could not go on forever for simple economical reasons; but as if that was not enough, Germany's allies were collapsing. The Ottomans were gradually being pushed out of Armenia, Palestine and Iraq - of what few territories there they still held. The Germanophile Greek king was overthrown in favour of a Venizelian republic. Bulgaria, much like Russia, only needed one moderately-succesful enemy offensive to fall. Austria-Hungary was also holding out only due to the German troops there.
While on the other hand, American troops were en route to Europe, Kerensky's Russia turned out much more stable than the Germans thought it to be and, unbeknowest to them yet, the Polish leaders were negotiating with the Russians. Autumn 1917 saw several new Entente offensives away from the Western Front - the Turks were routed and thrown into full flight on all fronts, Bulgaria was forced to surrender (soon after, by a separate peace, signing away its access to the Aegean Sea to the Greeks) and Jyzef Pilsudski (who was not arrested due to the different situation in the Eastern Front), started a mutiny of Polish Legions right at the front that allowed Boris Savinkov to make an unexpected new breakthrough in Galicia and even Belarus (as some of the German forces were diverted westwards for a planned offensive). This offensive, too, was stopped, but not before Vilnius and Lvov were in Russian hands again. The Czechoslovakian Legion has also distinguished itself in this offensive with its ferocity in combat, encouraging a Czech rebellion back at home.
Jubilant that he now had a victory, although a one rather lesser than what he has hoped for, Kerensky forced through some more radical reforms (providing for a gradual land reform in the favour of the peasants), secretly arranged an accident for Kornilov who was getting increasingly unreliable, arrested some more opposition leaders for that and the usual stuff and then signed the controversial Treaty of Minsk with Jyzef Pilsudski and Roman Dmowski (of the pro-Entente Polish National Committee), promising Poland full independence and the support for Polish western claims, in exchange for Poland resigning all claims to territories east of the old Russian Kingdom of Poland's borders (so Galicia was going to be divided into two halves, a Russian one and a Polish one). Plans were made for a coordinated Russo-Polish push towards Brest-Litovsk in 1918, but by then, the war has already ended.
As if the previous German situation was not bad enough, now it got even worse. Austria-Hungary soon begun to fall apart altogether. Encouraged by this, the Romanians rejected all peace endeavours and incited rebellions among their ethnic brethren in Transylvania. In the Reichstag, Matthias Erzberger and his followers were joined by much of the army staff in demands for an armistice; himself, Erzberger, as the leader of a "democratic" coalition of the Zentrum, the Social-Democrats and the People's Progressive Party, managed to persuade the Kaiser, with the help of the staff and some "hints", to appoint him Kanzler and to commence armistice negotiations. They dragged on, true, but warfare died down again and eventually, an armistice was hammered out, to the chagrin of those of the German general staff that saw it fit to surrender.
Then, at Versailles, the peace negotiations begun. At one point, they broke down at Kaiser Wilhelm II's insistance, as enthusiasm died down in the face of the harsh terms demanded... but soon, the Germans had to return to the negotiations table again, as the unthinkable had happened - the German troops, having been assured of peace coming soon and having become more lax and peaceful during the Armistice, mutinied when preparations for a potential resumption of warfare befun. That the fleet mutinied as well and that riots broke out in major cities was less surprising as compared to that. Though all this could be put down, it would take time and troops, and even then there was, for the first time, a risk that soldiers will join the civilian rioters. There clearly was no going back now.
But while peace negotiations went on, war has continued elsewhere - most notably, the Ottoman Empire continued to crumble. Although Mustafa Kemal had crushed the Russian offensive in Armenia and retook some ground there, that was the only bright spot as rebellions commenced in Kurdistan and the remaining Turkish-held Arab territories, Enver Pasha and the rest of CUP begun clearly preparing to flee and the British taking over Syria. Soon enough, the Ottomans had to request armistice as well, though it as clear as day that they were doomed. As for Austria-Hungary, the Armistice did not save it from fighting; although the Russians ceased their offensive operations and agreed, as a gesture of good will (and to lessen the Habsburg suspicions), to dismiss the Czechoslovak and the Polish Legions, said Legions, in good order and with clandestine Russian aid, soon attacked in Galicia on their own, staring a guerrila war that soon spread all the way to the Sudetes. When Vienna complained, Petrograd pointed out that these organizations had nothing to do with Russia, and that Russia had no control of them whatsoever; but if Vienna really wants the Russians to put an end to it, the Russians would gladly oblige it by sending in troops to help keep order. The Austrians, ofcourse, shut up at that and tried to defeat the rebels... but then, new risings begun in Transylvania and Bosnia (Romania and Serbia were evacuated as per the terms of the Armistice). The Danubean Monarchy was aflame.
All that somewhat changed the text of the final Treaty of Versailles (as released on March 4th 1918), as had US president Woodrow Wilson's obstinant meddling that was, for the most part, ignored. Kerensky meddled as well, suggesting that Austria-Hungary should simply be destroyed and replaced with a "New Eastern Europe". Germans vehemently opposed this, but it was clear to them by then that Austria-Hungary, at best, would lose well over a half of its territory. Ottoman Empire would cease to exist. Germany will survive... but will also lose much, so much that Kaiser Wilhelm II shaved off his moustache and went in exile to Netherlands (possibly the rumours that he was to be put on trial encouraged this as well). Thankfully, the Dutch queen did not agree to his extradition...
In truth, however, the demands for a trial were just there for the show, as were many other formalities and tokens in the Treaty of Versailles. All the things that mattered there came out of sheer pragmatism. The German colonial empire was liquidated and partitioned between Britain, France, Japan and to a small extent Belgium (much to the ire of USA whose colonial ambitions in the Pacific were thwarted just as the idealistic intervention of Woodrow Wilson; this has greatly influenced the American withdrawal from world affairs outside of the Western Hemisphere for the next decade). Severe limits (though not as severe as in OTL) were put on the German army, as for navy it had to be turned over to the Entente, chiefly to the UK. France took over Lorraine-Alsace and occupied Saar; Germans evacuated Belgium and Luxembourg. The rest of Rhineland remained German, but was demilitarized. Denmark took, by plebiscite, the northern half of Schleswig-Holstein. A republic was installed in Germany, Matthias Erzburger forming a provisional government. A Polish Republic was declared with Roman Dmowski and Jyzef Pilsudski forming a sort of a shaky biumvirate; it gained, beyond the Russian Congress Poland, Krakow, Western Galicia, Poznan, the Danzig Corridor and, eventually, a de facto protectorate over the Free City of Danzig itself. Austria-Hungary survived (with army limitations), but had to grant independence to Czechoslovakia, cede South Tyrol, Istria and Dalmatia to Italy, cede Galicia to be partitioned between Russia and Poland, cede South Transylvania and South Bukovina to Romania and cede Bosnia-Herzigovina to Serbia (which entered a personal union with Montenegro). Russia officially became a Republic, inheriting, however, all the responsibilities of the old Imperial government, including the debts (and the territorial claims, on the brigher side - Russia took over Eastern Galicia and North Bukovina). Finally, the Ottoman Empire was destroyed and replaced with a rump Turkish Sultanate, with the capital in Ankara and control over some parts of Anatolia. Greece, which barely had time to even have a few skirmishes with the Turks, was arguably the biggest winner here, adding to itself Thrace and the region of Smyrna. After much debate, Constantinople, the Straits and the Marmara Sea were turned into a "Zone of the Straits", under international control. Italy received a protectorate over the south-western corner of Anatolia. Russia established a protectorate over Western Armenia. A Kurdistani Republic - effectively a buffer state between Russia and the Entente's new Middle Eastern Possessions - was set up. Lebanon, Syria and eastern Anatolia (south of Kurdistan) became French protectorates; the British took Palestine, Transjordan, Iraq and Hejaz as protectorates.
Much trickier was a matter of finance. The UK, France, Belgium and Russia wanted the Central Powers to pay heavy reparations; USA did not care as much about Germany, in truth, but wanted the UK and France to pay out their debts; and the French wanted the Russians to pay out theirs. After many concessions and compromises from all sides... nothing really was achieved, though Russia attained a reduction of its debts by consenting to the creation of the aforementioned Zone of the Straits.
The world has entered the post-war age. The age of even more war.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
das said:
Hmm, I like that idea better, involves less work for me.
Though the players will have to build their own cultures.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Hmm. I only have two little nitpicks, das.
1. The Turks in OTL did lose Damascus and most of Syria, but still held the line formidably in northern Iraq and Armenia by the war's end. I'm not sure if they'd crumble that easily...they had fairly competent commanders in the southern regions.
2. Wilson wasn't seen as a meddler, he actually was quite respected by Allied and Central powers alike. Just see the favorable reception of the Fourteen Points for proof of this, I think.
1. The Turks in OTL did lose Damascus and most of Syria, but still held the line formidably in northern Iraq and Armenia by the war's end. I'm not sure if they'd crumble that easily...they had fairly competent commanders in the southern regions.
2. Wilson wasn't seen as a meddler, he actually was quite respected by Allied and Central powers alike. Just see the favorable reception of the Fourteen Points for proof of this, I think.
das
Regeneration In Process
They had Kemal Mustafa, who in this world just happened to be, if you read more carefully, in Armenia as the Russians didn't collapse as much as in OTL.
In this world, by the time the Fourteen Points were declared, Armistice was already declared as well and negotiations were in process. So he was simply seen as a meddling idealist who tried to destabilize Europe with this self-determination nonsense.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Hmm...I seem to remember the garrison commander of Medina being pretty competent (and fanatically loyal) as well, but granted. And Wilson must have had some influence, his goodwill being the main reason American troops were sent in to bolster the Entente.
But overall I agree.
But overall I agree.
das
Regeneration In Process
Medina already fell by 1917, and the American troops did not yet arrive. The only real influence USA has is the one it gets by the value of all those loans, but the Senate doesn't want to give up any of these to pursue Wilson's agenda in the EASTERN Hemisphere.
das
Regeneration In Process
Anyway, what's your opinion of the timeline as a whole? Haven't done 20th century in a while, as I will again remind you...
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Very good. Interesting to see how it'll play out in the future...Russo-American alliance, perhaps?
das
Regeneration In Process
Actually, though its not too likely in the 1920s (American isolationism, and Russia has... certain other problems)... in the 1930s, it is almost unavoidable. I do hope that someone starts a NES based on this, because the 1930s of this world offer a VERY interesting situation with many possible diplomatic combinations (even more than in OTL).
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