Alternate History Thread III

Native Africa in its entirety seems rather more powerful in TTL, so I would be very interested to hear how Ethiopia, traditionally the strongest and most stable African nation, turned out.

After entering a (fairly loose) union with the Roman Catholic Church (btw, the word "Roman" is more important than in OTL, because there is also another prominent Catholic Church around), the Solomonids had become great allies of the Crusaders and their associates (i.e. Egypt and Venice). With their help they eventually crushed Adal and numerous other traditional enemies, and entered a golden age around the 17th century. In spite of later complications, Ethiopia still remains a fairly progressive enlightened monarchy, has a flourishing commerce and an interesting culture that mixes Catholic/Portuguese and more traditional Ethiopian elements. It is also in a very good position expansion-wise, as long as it doesn't alienate the Egyptians too much (lately Ethiopia had been becoming less of an Egyptian ally and more of a Portuguese one).

A Christian missionary Ceylon (!) is incredibly intriguing. It was mentioned before I remember and I am sure Silver would like to know how his beautiful Indian paradise was so destroyed, so could you please expand on that?

After the Venetians entered the Indian Ocean in the 14th/15th centuries, they begun to run into occasional resistance during their attempts to monopolise trade in the region, especially as they begun to set their sights on various ports and fortresses that were as important to the local powers. So they decided to use the same weapon that had opened the door into the Indies for them, and with Papal blessing initiated a series of crusades against various enemies, recruiting many of the impetuous Egyptian and other Crusader State nobles (as by then the social conditions there had become similar to pre-crusade Europe in many regards). There were also the clashes between the Roman Catholic missionaries and the increasingly xenophobic local rulers. The Crusaders had devastated the Swahili city-states and parts of coastal India, but failed to secure any lasting strongholds there, for the most part; in Ceylon, various factors (such as it being an island; easier to conquer once invaded, and once conquered easier to hold, and obviously it was of great interest for the Venetians) allowed an Egyptian Crusader order (the Knights of the Nile) to prevail. What emerged was soemthing of a hybrid of the Teutonic Knights and the Knights Hospitaller; eventually it evolved into something closer to the latter and to the Templars (i.e. they cut back on crusading and instead begun trading with and studying the heathens). As changes came to the Roman Catholic Church, and the Venetian colonial empire collapsed during the Great Mediterranean War in the late 17th century, the state became a strong regional naval and commercial power in its own right, and also a natural centre of missionary activities. A new religious order (the Noahites) arose on the island; it is fairly Jesuit-like in approach, though even more keen on evangelisation.

A multicultural Egypt is also intiguing and unusual, so, again, would you please expand on it?

The short of it is that the Crusades had succeeded, and a Norman kingdom was carved out in chaos-struck Egypt. Initially things were troublesome, but eventually the kingdom was consolidated, the Norman ruling class resembling the Greek one of the Ptolemaics. The fairly pragmatic Norman approach to administration (see religious policies in Sicily) helped as well. After a while Norman Egypt went on to become a great power, gradually uniting the Crusader States around itself, while internally a cultural flourishing occured with the help of the assorted orders (both Templar-like Crusaders and an earlier Freemason analogue). Naturally the new Egyptian culture was increasingly unorthodox and divergent, but the Papacy had more pressing concerns like an Europe-wide religious civil war that raged on for centuries (ofcourse the actual fighting was far from uninterrupted during this time, but religious clashes are still not quite over). Anyhow in 1683 a dynastic crisis ended the reign of the Hautevilles, and after a brief "corrupt council of regents vying for power with increasingly manipulative and secretive orders" episode a military coup led by the metis (half-Arab, half-Norman) who would become King-and-Emperor Alexander I, Stupor Mundi, occured. A Napoleonic kind of person, he secularised the realm, curbed the power and privelege of everyone that had any (the orders, the guilds, the nobles, the Church), confiscated numerous church lands, adapted a new calendar and measurement system, introducing vaguely egalitarian social reforms and so on. Then he decided to rebuild the Roman Empire (and get back at the Venetians that tried to overthrow him); he built a huge empire and made the Eastern Mediterranean an Egyptian lake, and even took Rome itself at one point, but the man who already held the title of Roman Emperor (and Holy, at that!) rallied the opposition against the Egyptians. A long war ensued in Italy and the Balkans (and elsewhere, especially if we count the French warmongering as it was largely incited by Alexander at a more desperate point of the war), and ultimately a compromise peace was reached; the Egyptians kept most of their gains (Tunisia, Sicily, Calabria, the Balkans, Anatolia), but left the Imperial title to the House of Leiningen, which imposed German hegemony over northern Italy. Central Italy, previously led by the Pope, became a neutral and secular republic-type state, and the Egyptians withdrew from there and from southern Hungary. Also Venice lost its independence and its empire along the way.

But early in the 18th century, Alexander died, and his empire crumbled (though the core Egyptian lands were naturally preserved, and it took a few more decades and regional wars to push his heirs out of the southern Balkans and Italy). Pax Germanica dawned upon Europe; as for Egypt, it underwent a period of power struggles and court intrigue, but revived again later in the century. As a consequence of Alexander's reforms - never really reversed - it is even now the most egalitarian nation in the world, and though falling somewhat behind technologically as of right now its strategic position still is enough to make it flourish commercially, and its influence in the world, though diminished since its golden age, is bound to rise again given an energetic ruler. Need I say that the Chosen People are doing quite well for themselves as well? ;)

Many thanks and please excuse my rambling.

I literally asked for it and non-sarcastically have no regrets. ;)

If it hasn't anything to do with Oleg or the capital movement to Kiev, I've no idea.

And if it has? ;)

Nation recommendation for me?

We all know that you're going to launch a rebellion anyway. ;) But, Japan might work for you just fine based on your Bladeist performance, if you want to be [insert the threat that silver2039 is bound to post any moment now here] by silver2039. Denmark is also pretty close to your "arrogant small nation suicide" playing style. ;)

I suppose, if you so desire, you could fire off a nation recommendation for me as well. ;)

The Despotate of Ionia, though its extremelly petty. Still, that would be an interesting reversal from how you usually rebuild the Byzantine Empire, don't you think?

France obviously seems nice, but Tver strikes me as "my" style, if it seems like what I think it is...

What do you think it is? You're probably wrong. Actually it sounds like a nation Panda or Stormbringer would like to play. Meanwhile, France is a bitter diplomatically-isolated theocracy besieged by hateful neighbours. Sounds straight up your alley, I think. ;)

Sorry, what exactly is that uber-Armenia, again?

A very large Armenian empire. Its rather plain, really, apart from being a large and strong modern Armenian state. Well, it is also a pretty old state with a continuous dynasty and debated religious affiliation, and it used to be an Egyptian vassal, though right now it is more of a Chernigovian ally. Could be made into something greater given the right leadership and some luck, I suppose; the Serbian example is certainly inspiring.

Heh, I want a nation recommendation too :p

Apart from the explicitly obvious Xin Han China... Ja, Portugal or Australia (Australia being fairly similar to OTL USA in numerous key regards, though far from identical ofcourse) could work too.

What nation would I lead, save instigating a coup against Thlayli ? ;)

As was already said, the Holy Roman Empire. It certainly needs a good leader as it is in a bit of a crisis right now, having lost several periphereal vassal states and principalities after the Italian Rising. The Pax Germanica is crumbling and it needs you to shore it up!

Then there's Tver and Arcadia (though Symphony D. would fit right in in the latter, I think).

Wait...Japan has been slaughtering Christians?

"Has been"? It still is, though this is becoming somewhat problematic as the surviving "Kirishitans" had gotten both scarce and skilled at hiding.

As for uniting Europe again, its in the middle of the Age of Nationalism and full of great powers, so this is going to be a bit difficult. Still, that's the spirit. ;)
 
None on such a large scale. The Vietnamese have been imitating their Japanese allies closely, though, while the New Caliphate (the state in Arabia) has massacred the Christian colonists in Hejjaz comparatively recently.
 
It was ridiculously funny how the rest of the world sat by annexation after annexation, though.
Hey, I fought you twice, and lost both times due to being overwhelmed. ;)

The fact that Spain sort of collapsed into your lap helped a good deal, I would think. After that, there were no other powers capable of stopping you. Russia was too bloody far away, and Germany wasn\\\'t ready. It must have been nice to have the Papal States as your puppet - erm, ally - and to have not had a single enemy save in one direction, east.

I always thought that a thalassocratic France made very little sense. Why were your navy and your army both scarily powerful at the same time?

das said:
The Despotate of Ionia, though its extremelly petty. Still, that would be an interesting reversal from how you usually rebuild the Byzantine Empire, don\'t you think?
You know, I\'m sick and tired of trying to work with the bloody Greeks. Whenever I think about their real history I get sort of depressed and I have to lie down. What about in Scandinavia? - I had a bias there back in the early days (Finland, Sweden-Norway, Sweden, etc.).
 
Q: About that timeline, whats the ethnic make up of the Portuguese Empire, considering if demographics followed the OTL they would have like 1/5th of population spain did when in came to colonizing America...also what happened with the conquest of mexico - Portugal was very much a sea-based power, they never went far from the coasts in their conquests so I would posit the decay of the native states and gradual reaching out from the coasts rather the Conquestidors wham bam campaign.

Also I would like Portugal in the distant future when you mod this ;).
 
Ahem, there was nothing spontaneous about Spains collapse, thank you very much ;).
Never said that, I said that Spain basically fell into his lap. It may have had to get there somehow, though. ;)

I was wondering, das: what are Sweden, Denmark, and Norway like in respect to each other, i.e. power, economy, populace, ethnicity - even a little bit of history? I might be interested in one or the other, or even the other other...
 
Is this timeline complete anywhere for easy reading or do i just start going through this thread page by page to start getting the picture?
 
We're still trying to guess the PoD (a somewhat cruel game das likes to play with us). He also said that he did not actually write out the time line in full. If you want to make a gues as to the PoD, I would suggest read the last few pages since the map was posted and look at the map.
 
Why were your navy and your army both scarily powerful at the same time?

Actually true superpowers must be powerful in all regards. That's what makes them super.

What about in Scandinavia? - I had a bias there back in the early days (Finland, Sweden-Norway, Sweden, etc.).

Norway should work well; it is very aggressive, militaristic and vigorous here, and has some incipient pan-Scandinavian ambitions.

Well I really want Japan, anyone who takes it will be anally crucified by an enermous metal crucifix.

Yes, that's the threat I was looking for, thanks. ;)

Q: About that timeline, whats the ethnic make up of the Portuguese Empire, considering if demographics followed the OTL they would have like 1/5th of population spain did when in came to colonizing America...

The colonies are obviously not very racially pure. ;) Mexico in particular has seen a lot of intermarriage (more than in OTL due to no such strict blood purity standards as existed in Spain), and the other colonies have more native communities surviving outside of the Portuguese-dominated coastal areas; this especially goes for the Phillipines, though there cultural conquest has occured similarily to OTL. Chinese territories are Chinese-majority, though cultural identity is somewhat confused and widely-ranging. Also one must note that there are Flemings and Englishmen in the respective colonies of Flandres and Britain that were captured after the Fifty Years War, and British and other Iberian refugee communities in Mexico and the Carribean.

also what happened with the conquest of mexico - Portugal was very much a sea-based power, they never went far from the coasts in their conquests so I would posit the decay of the native states and gradual reaching out from the coasts rather the Conquestidors wham bam campaign.

You are, ofcourse, forgetting about a little country known as Brazil; and that one didn't have so many wealthy native cities and had much worse interior terrain. ;) Still, it was noticeably more gradual than the OTL Spanish conquest.

Also I would like Portugal in the distant future when you mod this ;).

As was expected.

EDIT:

I was wondering, das: what are Sweden, Denmark, and Norway like in respect to each other, i.e. power, economy, populace, ethnicity - even a little bit of history? I might be interested in one or the other, or even the other other...

Ethnicity is not much different from OTL and population is guessable; though there are some changes, ofcourse, such as a greater ethnic Swedish presence in Finland (Swedes and half-Swedes are the majority by now), and the differences in Norway (it never was united with Denmark for any meaningful period of time, so it has retained its own culture and language in a more intact state; also Norway has a higher population - more land, less foreign restrictions, and ofcourse refugees from the Fifty Years War that figured that it is better to risk a frostbite than a "God's purifying flame"). Denmark is somewhat poorer than in OTL, but is more militarised and has for the last few centuries been fighting irredentist wars with the Holy Roman Empire, not really very succesfully. And Sweden is nice and quiet, with not much of a military tradition; it is increasingly pushed around by its more aggressive neighbours, and so increasingly leaning towards the Holy Roman Empire, being under strong German cultural influence and in dynastic ties with the Leiningens as of right now.

As for a timeline, I will write at least a general timeline at some point.
 
While I've got your attention das, please stop by the map requests thread and give your input to NK on Russia in 1326. You're the only person I could think of in the forum with sufficient knowledge of Russian history for that task.
 
You are, ofcourse, forgetting about a little country known as Brazil; and that one didn't have so many wealthy native cities and had much worse interior terrain. ;) Still, it was noticeably more gradual than the OTL Spanish conquest.

Where it took 300 years to get 200 miles inland? My point stands ;).
 
If we're all reserving stuff, I'll snap up the Grand Principality of Chernigov since they fit me so well ;)

Labeled map using das' comments as a guide.

000_20TVCHER_20Guess-the-PoD_201900.GIF
 
You know, I\'m sick and tired of trying to work with the bloody Greeks. Whenever I think about their real history I get sort of depressed and I have to lie down. What about in Scandinavia? - I had a bias there back in the early days (Finland, Sweden-Norway, Sweden, etc.).

Amen. :(

ten
 
Das said it wasnt starting for a long time .... so no point reserving stuff now.
 
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