Alternate History Thread V

[Dachs]

Man, every time I get close to a PoD date it turns out I'm horribly wrong and have to keep pushing it back. How the hell did that Ruthenian state become Catholic?

Someone said they had done a TL for China colonizing the new world and such before Europe. It would be 1400-1450 probably, 1405 roughly being the time when the creation of the treasure fleet began by Zhu Di (Yongle). I believe Dachs mentioned that azale, das, and EQ had done a TL about it.

No, I was talking about the Ming TL that azale and Espoir have both failed to turn into a lasting NES, PoD in the 1620s during the Manchu invasions with a start date in 1750. Uberfrance, American rebels, powerful VOC, Bavaria is the Emperor, Sweden is still worth a damn, Ottomans expanding in the east, the Danubean Monarchy is styled 'Hungary' more often than 'Austria', that sort of thing...and China has control of the Philippines, plus a strong navy.

 

[Kentharu]

Edit: Nevermind found it.

 

[das]

How the hell did that Ruthenian state become Catholic?

It made a deal with the Pope, obviously. Out of political and strategical considerations. Then there decades - nay, centuries - of doubt, bickering and rebellion, but ultimately the Kings of Russia remained loyal to their deal (for many different reasons) and managed to impose Catholicism (of a slightly deviant and autonomous variety, kinda like Gallicanism and some of the less harmful French heresies theological eccentricities in terms of distance from mainstream Catholicism) on much of their population.

 

[Dachs]

I should be greatly irritated if the PoD were to be as far back as the thirteenth century.

 

[das]

Out of curiosity, why should you?

 

[alex994]

No, I was talking about the Ming TL that azale and Espoir have both failed to turn into a lasting NES, PoD in the 1620s during the Manchu invasions with a start date in 1750. Uberfrance, American rebels, powerful VOC, Bavaria is the Emperor, Sweden is still worth a damn, Ottomans expanding in the east, the Danubean Monarchy is styled 'Hungary' more often than 'Austria', that sort of thing...and China has control of the Philippines, plus a strong navy.

I remember that nes! I believe you're talking about the Nan Ming TL?

 

[Dachs]

Out of curiosity, why should you?

Because I don't know very much about Europe and the Near East in the thirteenth century. Also, something about personal irritation of the Ottomans still ending up in control of Anatolia and the Balkans despite the PoD predating their existence.

Did the Black Death occur, then? The Kantakouzenos-Palaiologos civil wars, and the earthquake at Gelibolu?

I remember that nes! I believe you're talking about the Nan Ming TL?

Yeah, that one.

 

[Kraznaya]

Also that the Ming also formed exactly the same way

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

I was just reading over the thread, and my favorite part was the complaining about how there's no love for Spain. I've been facing a similar issue in the construction of Imperial Glory, trying to figure out a logical way to keep Spain a legitimate power until 1800. A lack of a French Revolution I thought would do the trick to keep the region from destabilizing and the empire intact. However, the simple fact that the Spanish Empire was horribly inefficient doesn't exactly help the circumstance. In ya'll's opinion, who would be the best to start up a dynasty which would actually preserve the power of Spain in its empire?

 

[Thlayli]

The argument that the conquest of the New World was essentially an extension of the Reconquista is largely valid, and that Spain was effectively locked into a downward spiral after it became shackled to the New World's vast precious metals supply for economic sustenance. You might as well paint a bullseye on the treasure galleons and say "Sink these to kill Spain!"

So, you can either a) keep the Spanish militaristic vigor from stagnating somehow/redirect it to a secondary target/keep the Castillan heartland under threat or b) fiddle around with dynastic politics and make the Spaniards lucky in Italy, etc. I'm too lazy busy to puzzle out the various Hapsburg/non-Hapsburg routes, sorry.

 

[Dachs]

I helped make Spain non-sucky in the revised Meade at Gettysburg timeline. :3

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

What about just making Spain have decent colonial management policies? My timeline changes some things, and overall the empire is smaller at the height of Spain. basically though I'm just taking away Panama and Venezuela, as well as some small parts of California. Overall though, it remains the same.

 

[bombshoo]

What about just making Spain have decent colonial management policies? My timeline changes some things, and overall the empire is smaller at the height of Spain. basically though I'm just taking away Panama and Venezuela, as well as some small parts of California. Overall though, it remains the same.

Considering the plot of your NES, I assume Scotland possesses Panama and some sort of German colony exist in Venezuela. How/Why did Spain let this come about? I think an inherent problem might be that if Spain wasn't strong enough to keep these areas within their empire they would not be able to hold onto their colonies at all. I suppose this could at least partially come about with convenient alliances for the former two powers to extent but I'd have to know more.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Well theoretically the Scots took Panama and the Spanish didn't really feel that it was essential to destroy them, hoping that disease killed them off (as it almost did historically). As for the Germanic colony, I was assuming that took place when Spain was under the Habsburgs and that they remained under the control of Austrians afterwards, rather than returning to Spain. I was hoping perhaps that Spain would be busy controlling the actual effective parts of the empire to try to take back the lost territories.

 

[Thlayli]

It's hard to manage an empire that far-flung with 1500's-1600's technology.

You could alter the encomienda system I guess for less oppression, but you really need to have viceroyalties (and semi-independent viceroys) to get anything done in the empire.

 

[Kentharu]

After completing "When China Ruled The Sea" I have developed a rough ATL for early Chinese colonization. The time-line is as follows.

July 1399:- Emperor Zhu Yuhwen sends a small force to Beijing, then known as Beiping to arrest two of prince Zhu Di's commanders on trumped up charges. Zhu Di agrees to hand over his two officers however as soon as the arresting officers enter his palace they are executed on the spot. He then proclaims is intention to "accept Heaven's command to quell the troubles at court". Zhu Di is careful to specify is his position publicly, not as a usurper of the Dragon Throne, but an opponent of corruption within the court. He singles out two treasonous officials, Qi Tai and Huang Zicheng, and there by masks his true motives. Back in Nanjing Emperor Yunwen does not take the growing threat of Zhu Di seriously and continues on as usual. The first step towards rebellion begin.

Spring 1401:- After many defeats by Zhu Di, the Emperor sends a large force north. Armed with gunpowder grenades the Emperor is able to deal a crucial defeat to Zhu Di's forces and Zhu Di himself is nearly killed. The prince orders his forces back to Beiping to regroup and rest. A stalemate is reached.

January 1402:- After the eunuchs defected to Zhu Di and revealed much of the defensive layout of Nanjing, the prince starts his campaign south. Zhu Di defeats Zhu Yunwen's forces at Anhui, a crucial and final victory for and the prince lays seige to the capital.

(PoD)July 13 1402:- After a rather short seige Zhu Di's forces march through the city gates only to find the imperial palace engulfed in flames. After a short investigation the burnt corpses of the empress, the emperor and his eldest son are found.

July 17 1402:- Zhu Di ascends the Dragon Throne as Emperor Yongle.

May 1403:- Zhu Di orders the construction of an imperial fleet, which would be later known as the Treasure Fleet.

Spring 1405:- A total of 317 ships are assembled in Nanjing, the largest being approximately 390-408 ft long by 160-166 ft wide.

Autumn 1405:- The fleet of 317, with a crew of over 27,000 men depart from Nanjing with the intended destination being Calicut. Zheng He is appointed as the the commander in chief of the treasure fleet, notable because this is the first time a eunuch was able to attain such a high position.

1407:- The second voyage of the treasure fleet. Zheng He doesn't command the treasure fleet and stays behind due to ill health. However after a rapid recovery he sets out on a personal mission of exploration with the consent of Zhu Di. The islands of Hawaii are discovered.

1409:- After the discovery of the Hawaii islands Zhu Di orders aggressive expansion, much unlike his rather diplomatic approach to the rest of asia. Zheng He returns to Hawaii to find much of the population wiped out by small pox, allowing for inital colonization to be easier, with little resistance from the native population. Zheng He continues onward and discovers the New World.

1412:- The Emperor orders another expedition of the treasure fleet, however unlike all previous other expeditions, which were to trade with Indian, and Arabian nations, the intent of this fleet is solely on trade with the newly discovered Aztecs.

1413:- After further exploration down the coast of the Americas the Incas are discovered. Zheng He meets with the Emperor of the Inca's who affronts him by demanding that he bow. Zheng He refuses and returns to Zhu Di with tales of the Incas. When Zhu Di hears that the Incan Emperor claims to be a living god, a son of the sun, he is furious. Fearing that news of this imposter would destabilize his rule unless he did something about it, he sends the treasure fleet on a fourth voyage.


I leave of here because what comes next is rather obvious, however when I complete the full ATL I will go into it in detail in any case. As I previously stated this is a very rough time line. I have little knowledge of Japan at this time and I want to incorporate it into the ATL some how.

Some notes on, the eunuchs within the imperial court at this time did grow in power, in this TL they will continue to grow in power, pushing aside the Confucian members as trade via the sea increases. The capital will indeed move to Beiping, renamed Beijing after that. you may wonder why I put the PoD as when Zhu Yunwen is found burnt in the Imperial palace at Nanjing. OTL the remains were burnt beyond recogniztion and throughout Zhu Di's reign as emperor he was plagued with paranoia as to whether Zhu Yunwen was alive or not. I believe this was a key factor in the decisions he made. Zhu Di went to incredible lengths to prove that Zhu Yunwen was truly dead. Hence in this TL the remains are indeed readily identifiable as those of Zhu Yunwen, and greetly effect both the health of Zhu Di as well as the stability of his reign.

Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

 

[bombshoo]

It's hard to manage an empire that far-flung with 1500's-1600's technology.

What do you mean? There were several far-flung empires at that time?

@Kenth: Looks good but I'd have to know about Chinese history at that time to be able to make any informed comments.

 

[Thlayli]

What do you mean? There were several far-flung empires at that time?

Yeah, and the degree of centralization over said far-flung empires was virtually nil.

 

[bombshoo]

Yeah, and the degree of centralized over said far-flung empires was virtually nil.

Oh I misinterpreted what you were saying. Yes I suppose a system of vice-royalties as you suggested would be best but I would guess that these naturally lend themselves to corruption and the other problems you stated earlier.

 

[North King]

The Spanish Empire was largely held together by Italian credit, German manpower, and Dutch industry. So if you could find a way to keep the Dutch provinces part of the Empire, or keep a firmer hold on Italy, that might do it. On the other hand, it might be better if you could turn the Spanish into a nation-state on its own terms, instead of relying on foreign assistance. That would require somehow removing the infamous Spanish sectionalism, however... and I don't really see a way to do that short of a PoD as early as the 700s.