Alternate Leaders for VP project thread

[Moi Magnus]

I'm working on a concept for Boleslaw. It's quite "experimental", but I wanted to have your opinions.

Spoiler Boleslaw Poland :

Poland - Boleslaw - Legacy of Gniezno
- At the beginning of the fifth turn of the game, all capitals in the world are revealed, and all major civs and city-states are met.
- Can always found the WCongress
=> This means that the WCongress is always founded at turn 5 when Boleslaw is present in the game.
- Having an embassy in a capital allows to negotiate WC proposals

This is a very early concept, and I don't think it will be developped in that direction, but I thought this could be an interesting and unique way to reference how Boleslaw used diplomatic and religious means to found an independant Kingdom of Poland, equal to the already existing great powers. These bonus allows a lot of visibility on the game from the get go (you know general informations on all the players, like policies, number of techs etc, immediatly, their emplacements, and you gain early bonus from meeting all CStates). A lot of missions will be available to you, which can lead to a lot of yields in the early game.
A combat bonus could be added, but the general idea is here.

Having done some team games, I've observed the influence of faster city-state and civ meeting, and ... it is OP.

In short:
+ Discovering all CS is OP. You will most likely gain enough culture from encounter to have a policy, enough faith for a pantheon, and a ton of gold.
+ You will have CS quest a lot earlier. Construction project, having a GP, and having a ressources being easy to complete without investing too much time (remember, you've met everyone, so trading ressources is not a problem).
+ You deny to other peoples the bonus for "first meeting". Siam is not happy.
And this is raw bonuses.
You then have all the indirect bonuses from knowing the position of everybody from the beginning, not having to explore the see to find all the city states, ...

The easiest way to balance this idea is to compare to Polynesia. Polynesia has a similar bonus of "quick exploration, and almost garanted WC founding", but except in water heavy maps where settling on island is actually very interesting, the UA for Poland you are suggesting is far stronger than the Polynesian once.

 

[pineappledan]

Another thing to consider is that exploring who your neighbours are is one of the only things to do in ultra-early game. If you meet everyone automatically all that is left is ruins. You just cut out half the early game.

I think at this point, some stuff just needs to get picked up by modders. Any more fussing over hypothetical leaders is going to end up in low-quality ideas which will get thrown in, and modders will have to separate the wheat from the chaff when deciding if they want to pick up one of these.

I would recommend scaling back, and whittling down to a top 10 of really solid ideas you would want to see done, then putting those front and center in one of your OPs, then squirreling away the more marginal ideas for now. You're already doing this to a certain extent, but I'd focus on refining what has already been suggested

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm working on a concept for Boleslaw. It's quite "experimental", but I wanted to have your opinions.

Spoiler Boleslaw Poland :

Poland - Boleslaw - Legacy of Gniezno
- At the beginning of the fifth turn of the game, all capitals in the world are revealed, and all major civs and city-states are met.
- Can always found the WCongress
=> This means that the WCongress is always founded at turn 5 when Boleslaw is present in the game.
- Having an embassy in a capital allows to negotiate WC proposals

This is a very early concept, and I don't think it will be developped in that direction, but I thought this could be an interesting and unique way to reference how Boleslaw used diplomatic and religious means to found an independant Kingdom of Poland, equal to the already existing great powers. These bonus allows a lot of visibility on the game from the get go (you know general informations on all the players, like policies, number of techs etc, immediatly, their emplacements, and you gain early bonus from meeting all CStates). A lot of missions will be available to you, which can lead to a lot of yields in the early game.
A combat bonus could be added, but the general idea is here.

It is unique, but it'd disrupt the flow of the gameplay and it'd probably be a pain to play against. I agree with pineappledan, it'd be best to just focus on a few leaders, or even one, and release him to test. Maybe even someone simple, like Louis XIV or Frederick, but do we even know more leaders for same civs can work in VP right now?

 

[Hinin]

As I said, it was an "experiment", and I was excepting that kind of reaction. I doesn't intend on going further for now in term of leader concepts for now. Thanks for having given your opinions.

I would recommend scaling back, and whittling down to a top 10 of really solid ideas you would want to see done, then putting those front and center in one of your OPs, then squirreling away the more marginal ideas for now. You're already doing this to a certain extent, but I'd focus on refining what has already been suggested

I'll do a list of leaders I would like to see today (it will take into account the simpleness of their bonus as one of the main factors, of course). Don't hesitate to do so, so that we can compare and debate).

do we even know more leaders for same civs can work in VP right now?

This is something we should ask to @Gazebo.
Hello Gazebo.
We wanted to ask you if you think having several leaders for the same civ is possible in VP. Also, do you know if the True Alternative Leaders mod made by JFD is compatible with VP ?

 

[Hinin]

Here is a list.

Spoiler Leader list :

Hammurabi - Babylon
Mutsuhito- Japan
Frederick I - Germany
Oscar II - Sweden
Louis XIV - France
=> These five seems to be the easiest to make (the arts are already present and the bonus aren't that complexe)
John III - Poland
Umar - Arabia
Memhed II - Ottomans
Theodore Roosevelt - America
=> The bonus are a bit more complex for these four, but the arts are already here
Victoria - Britain
=> HungryForFood had already completed this leader (once again, thank you for your hard work)

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Freddie's music is simple for war. Something from Teutonic campaign from Medieval 2 Total War or just M2TW have a few, like War of Kings for war. Alternatively Warhammer Dark Omen for a way more heavy HRE feel (Battle 1, 2, Chase or Main Theme) which only has War fitting stuff. Peace theme is harder but again maybe M2TW will suffice if no one has any ideas. Maybe Devil's Harp or Lilly.

 

[Hinin]

Here is what I found.
The peace theme is a bit unusual, but I find it quite majestic, and it's a good way to make a link between the myth surrounding Barbarossa and his death, and his apparition as a leader of Germany here (we could also make references in his unique lines).

Peace theme : Der alte Barbarossa
War theme : Hymn of War

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Seems good. I cannot suggest much for the others, unless you want some anime songs for Mutsuhito which you don't

 

[HungryForFood]

Why are you using Meiji's personal name? He was only ever officially referred to as Meiji during his rule.

I'm interesting in working on Meiji by the way. I like the UA, but for the golden age from GG/GA, I suggest that it should only be triggered via a special action (separate button like great artists, so length will follow the same rules too). My experience with Prussia is that it is far too easy to get permanent golden ages early on if you just keep fighting wars, even when I made the golden age only half length.

 

[KaoticKanine]

Aw man, I wish I noticed this thread earlier! I live for this kind of stuff, being someone who also has a lot of ideas but no practical skill to apply them

I've been thinking a lot recently about different UA's for the Iroquois, and here are two ideas I came up with for them after looking up their history

Iroquois - Jigonhsasee - Mother of Nations

-Forests and Jungles act as Roads for all Iroquois Units and can be used to establish City Connections

-Military Units receive increased defenses within Iroquois territory and are fully healed when first entering Iroquois territory

[The full heal works on an individual basis for each single Military Unit and gets deactivated when territory is being invaded by enemy units]

While Hiawatha has a more offensive benefit for his military, with all MU getting the Woodsman promotion, Jigonhsasee is more defense-oriented. And... That's it, really ^_^; Don't have a complex strategy for this UA aside from using the heal to have an army instantly recover from capturing a city, which is always a highly damaging affair. Though I now realize that's not really useful since having to bring your army back to a city when you're out dominating is VERY time-consuming... Well, again, this is just a basic idea that I'm sharing. Feel free to offer up a different idea for Jigonhsasee's UA or make an improvement to this iteration if you find one

For context, this UA idea is inspired by Jigonhsasee's hospitality to warriors. As Wikipedia puts it; "She was known for her hospitality to warriors as they traveled to and from battlegrounds and their homes. At her hearth, warriors of the various factions could come in peace. While they ate her food, she acted as counsel and learned their hearts". I was also going to have this UA grant a free Unit of choice when taking camps/cities, derived from the Iroquois "absorbing" other peoples into their tribe, usually due to warefare or being displaced, but that doesn't synergize well with a defensive ability lol


Iroquois - Great Peacemaker - Great Law of Peace

-Forests and Jungles act as Roads for all Iroquois Units and can be used to establish City Connections

-Worked Forests, Jungles, Rivers, and Lakes provide +1 Faith. Missionaries grant Influence to target City States and expending Great Prophets provides Influence to all met City States, the Influence not decaying when your Religion is their majority

Now this one is a bit more complex in a good way, I feel. The Great Peacemaker, one of the founders of the Iroquois nation alongside Hiawatha and Jigonhsasee, makes the Iroquois a defined Religious-Diplomatic Civ that use Missionaries and Great Prophets to achieve a Diplomatic victory, or simply ally with City States for other forms of victory. To help ensure the Iroquois can get a Religion, they are able to gain Faith from Forests, Jungles, Rivers, and Lakes, four common terrain types. I'm aware that may be a bit much, but I see no other way to aid the Iroquois in utilizing Religion that isn't used with other Civs. This strategy may be simple, but it is something no other Civ does, and it works with the history of the Iroquois and the Great Peacemaker

Great Peacemaker, by all accounts, was a prophet and not only did some accounts claim his mother to be a virgin (making his birth a miraculous one) but there's a legend that the Great Peacemaker convinced the Mohawk Tribe to join the Haudenosaunee (the true name of the Iroquois) by surviving a fall into the rapids, demonstrating his spiritual power, so there's the religious angle there. And of course, it was Great Peacemaker's efforts that ultimately got the Iroquois formed in the first place, bringing peace to warring tribes and having them join together as a confederacy

 

[Hinin]

Why are you using Meiji's personal name? He was only ever officially referred to as Meiji during his rule.

For once, what the wikipedia article says on this subject is well-verified (the matter has been the subject of a chapter in a huge and heavy history book I have on the history of Japan) : basically, Mutsuhito has only be named Meiji after his death (for Meiji was the name of the era during which he ruled). During his reign, he was only called "His Majesty the Emperor", and his actual name, Mutsuhito, cannot be found in any official document produced during or after his reign (before becoming emperor, he was simply known as "Imperial prince Mutsuhito").

So we have a problem here : if we call him Meiji, then there will be a redundancy with the name of his UA (and the Meiji-jidai is, to my mind, the best element we can relate his UA to, so it would be strange to give his UA another name the "Meiji Reformation"), but, if we call him Mutsuhito, it gives an informal tone to his presentation.

I'm interesting in working on Meiji by the way. I like the UA, but for the golden age from GG/GA, I suggest that it should only be triggered via a special action (separate button like great artists, so length will follow the same rules too). My experience with Prussia is that it is far too easy to get permanent golden ages early on if you just keep fighting wars, even when I made the golden age only half length.

What do you suggest exactly ? To give to GGenerals and GAdmirals the same unique action the Daimyo has in the original Meiji mod by JFD, so that you have to sacrifice the ability to produce Citadels and gain Luxury resources to trigger GAges ?

Iroquois - Jigonhsasee - Mother of Nations

Iroquois - Great Peacemaker - Great Law of Peace

First of all, thank you for your participation. It is always nice to see people getting interested.

Now, let's talk about the Iroquois. One of the reasons I didn't create or even suggested the idea of working on a concept for a Iroquois leader is that I think most of the bonus Hiawatha currently gives are necessary for the Iroquois identity as a unique civilization in VP : if we take away the Woodsman promotion, Iroquois land unit will become hindered by the terrain their economy needs the most ; if we take away the "city connection/road" bonus, their ability to thrive in heavily forested eras is reduced (and they become a bit too similar to other tree-loving civs like the Mayas or the Aztecs), since they'll have to create roads to navigate their territory, and that will take time and will cost gold...

The only bonus that could be changed is the "natural wonder combat bonus", but exchanging this small bonus with another small bonus (a bigger bonus would make the civ too powerful) won't make the new leaders interesting enough. It is for the same reasons that I didn't propose another leader for the Incas or the Aztecs.

I'll keep what you suggested in mind, but I don't think adding Iroquois leaders is useful and, as I said above, I won't be working on new leaders for some time (for we already have plenty of concepts to improve).

Have a good week.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Actually an Aztecs leader could easily work. Not so Inca/Iroquois, I agree, but 4UC does mean the Golden Ages are important and even in vanilla the faith/gold per kill is barely noticeable (overnerfed imho) while the Golden Ages are easy to get and the only good part of the civ without 4UC, but even if you want synergy with Huey Dewey and Louie's Grand Temple, you can just have them gain Golden Age points per kill. Very generous, like 3-5x CS. Then another bonus on top of that, but I have no ideas. They're not exactly terrain-dependent.

 

[KaoticKanine]

Oh... Well now all that time writing that post and researching those leaders for accuracy were for nothing Probably for the best, actually. Information regarding Jigonhsasee is very slim, with her hospitality being the most known thing about her, and not really a good idea to have Great Peacemaker in the position of commanding armies, even if warfare isn't strong-suit or preferred to playstyle (heck, we can't even say his real name since that can only be said under special circumstances, that's how the Haudenosaunee regard him)

Okay, so now I know that the Iroquois and Incas are not recommended for this thread due to terrain-reliant gameplay lol Well then, I guess I'll give the 'Missionaries/Prophets give City-State Influence' to a different leader. Perhaps it could be the UA of an Arabian or Greek Alternate Leader? Both seem sensible, since Arabia was united by Religion (Islam), while the Greeks were essentially separate City-States that shared a single Religion (well, Pantheon more like, but back in those days the Greek Gods were just as real as any other god)

Actually an Aztecs leader could easily work. Not so Inca/Iroquois, I agree, but 4UC does mean the Golden Ages are important and even in vanilla the faith/gold per kill is barely noticeable (overnerfed imho) while the Golden Ages are easy to get and the only good part of the civ without 4UC, but even if you want synergy with Huey Dewey and Louie's Grand Temple, you can just have them gain Golden Age points per kill. Very generous, like 3-5x CS. Then another bonus on top of that, but I have no ideas. They're not exactly terrain-dependent.

Yeah, the Aztecs can totally be given an Alternate Leader! They only benefit from certain terrain, being Lakes for Floating Gardens and Forests/Jungles for Jaguar units, but they're not dependent on them. Jaguars are more than capable of fighting outside of trees while the Mohawk Warriors kind of need to be in the woods

On that note, a quick visit to Wikipedia just gave me the idea for an Aztec Alternate Leader to have a bonus involving City-States, since the Aztec Empire has a history with them

Spoiler From Wikipedia, regarding the Aztecs :

"From the 13th century, the Valley of Mexico was the heart of dense population and the rise of city-states. The Mexica were late-comers to the Valley of Mexico, and founded the city-state of Tenochtitlan on unpromising islets in Lake Texcoco, later becoming the dominant power of the Aztec Triple Alliance or Aztec Empire. It was a tributary empire that expanded its political hegemony far beyond the Valley of Mexico, conquering other city states throughout Mesoamerica in the late post-classic period. It originated in 1427 as an alliance between the city-states Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan; these allied to defeat the Tepanec state of Azcapotzalco, which had previously dominated the Basin of Mexico. Soon Texcoco and Tlacopan were relegated to junior partnership in the alliance, with Tenochtitlan the dominant power. The empire extended its reach by a combination of trade and military conquest. It was never a true territorial empire controlling a territory by large military garrisons in conquered provinces, but rather dominated its client city-states primarily by installing friendly rulers in conquered, by constructing marriage alliances between the ruling dynasties, and by extending an imperial ideology to its client city-states. Client city-states paid tribute to the Aztec emperor, the Huey Tlatoani, in an economic strategy limiting communication and trade between outlying polities, making them dependent on the imperial center for the acquisition of luxury goods."

I guess, from this, the Aztecs gets MASSIVE rewards from bullying City-States? I'm starting to think that perhaps they can demand tribute from City-States without losing Influence on them (allowing you to ally with them and continue getting big rewards) and they get an extra option to demand a Unit of choice from City-States (Workers, Military, or even Settlers)

 

[Hinin]

Actually an Aztecs leader could easily work. Not so Inca/Iroquois, I agree, but 4UC does mean the Golden Ages are important and even in vanilla the faith/gold per kill is barely noticeable (overnerfed imho) while the Golden Ages are easy to get and the only good part of the civ without 4UC, but even if you want synergy with Huey Dewey and Louie's Grand Temple, you can just have them gain Golden Age points per kill. Very generous, like 3-5x CS. Then another bonus on top of that, but I have no ideas. They're not exactly terrain-dependent.

... I agree, but having the Aztecs without the "sacrificial" aspect seemed a little too "out of character". This is why, even though I imagined a more diplomacy-oriented leader concept for the Aztecs (namely Huitzitzihuitl, second tlatoani of Tenochtitlan), I didn't publish it.

Oh... Well now all that time writing that post and researching those leaders for accuracy were for nothing

It was not for nothing. We can always use these bonus later for other leaders, and it allowed you to introduce yourself to use in a "practical" way. Don't hesitate to react and test things.

 

[KaoticKanine]

It was not for nothing. We can always use these bonus later for other leaders, and it allowed you to introduce yourself to use in a "practical" way. Don't hesitate to react and test things.

Understood Sorry if I sounded bitter there lol I was seriously just making a joke about how it took me more than three hours to write out that post, mostly because I'm too uptight about accuracy and such (so, really, I was making a dig at myself lol). But indeed, that allowed me to introduce myself to this thread in a good manner, and I already got the idea to use the Peacemaker's UA for a new alternate leader lol I'll continue finding ways to contribute to this thread ;D

 

[pineappledan]

I actually really like the Great Peacemaker/Shennenrahawi suggestion. It meshes really well with the Sachem's council 4th UC. The woodsman bonus is only really useful outside your home territory. Inside, forests and jungle act as roads, so iroquois can move around easilly enough there. This puts more emphasis on their defensive strength, since they are still highly mobile within their border blob.

The Mohawk warrior would have to be given woodsman as a default promotion, however

An Aztec alternate would probably have to satisfy 2 requirements:
1) keep the yields on kill part of the UA
2) contribute to golden ages in some form
Otherwise Aztec loses a lot of their flavor, and the Huey Teocalli loses a lot of its usefulness.

How 'bout this?

Itzcoatl - Triple Alliance

and from kills.
Declarations of Friendship act as Defensive Pacts and vice versa. +1 GAP in every city for each Declaration of Friendship, Vassal and CS ally, scaling with era

And then re-name Montezuma II's UA to 'Flower War'/Xōchiyāōyōtl

 

[KaoticKanine]

I actually really like the Great Peacemaker/Shennenrahawi suggestion. It meshes really well with the Sachem's council 4th UC. The woodsman bonus is only really useful outside your home territory. Inside, forests and jungle act as roads, so iroquois can move around easilly enough there. This puts more emphasis on their defensive strength, since they are still highly mobile within their border blob.

The Mohawk warrior would have to be

Ah that's right! Woodsman is only really good for being on the offensive, otherwise the Military Units have trouble taking out threats within the woods. But defensively, they're still effective, which is all the more better for Great Peacemaker since, as the name makes clear, he's all about peace Thank you so much for saving the Peacemaker idea, and very glad it works with the UC (what is that, by the way? As far as I know, it's the acronym for Unique Construct lol)

An Aztec alternate would probably have to satisfy 2 requirements:
1) keep the yields on kill part of the UA
2) contribute to golden ages in some form
Otherwise Aztec loses a lot of their flavor, and the Huey Teocalli loses a lot of its usefulness.

How 'bout this?

Itzcoatl - Triple Alliance

and from kills.
Declarations of Friendship act as Defensive Pacts and vice versa. +1 GAP in every city for each Declaration of Friendship, Vassal and CS ally.

And then re-name Montezuma II's UA to 'Flower War'/Xōchiyāōyōtl

I love that idea! Provides a more diplomatic playstyle for the Aztecs while still maintaining their military presence, since Defensive Pacts ensures you'll be involved in war sooner or later and Domination is the best way you can get Vassals

 

[Hinin]

Aztecs - Itzcoatl - Triple Alliance
- Gain Gold and Faith from kills.

- Declarations of Friendship act as Defensive Pacts and vice versa.

+1 GAP in every city for each Declaration of Friendship, Vassal and CS ally, scaling with era.

I also like this.
In that case, I'll also give an Aztec leader concept.

Spoiler Huitzitzihuitl Aztecs :

Aztecs - Huitzitzihuitl - End of Ayatl
- Gain GAge points and Faith from kills.

- During GAges, +25 % Food and 25 % of Food is carried over after a new citizen is born.

- +1 Gold to tiles with access to Fresh Water.

Another leader geared toward the use of GAges but, contrary to Meiji, Huitzitzihuitl is specialized in growth and gold production.

During GAges, he can, with the four necessary buildings (Granary, Aqueduc, Grocer and Medical lab), carry over 100 % of Food after a citizen is born, making his cities grow at an astonishing rate in the end game.

At the same time, he can gain +2 Gold per tiles with access to fresh water when in Golden Age. Because these tiles will often be occupied by Farms, growth and wealth will go hand in hand.
The rest of the time, Huitzitzihuitl can develop his religion and gain GAge points from fighting and try conquering cities with access to Fresh water so that he gain more and more wealth (for his citizen won't wear ayatl anymore). He can also adopt a turtling strategy and make so that his citizens stay happy so that he can regularly trigger GAges.

In definitive, he is an Aztec leader that, contrary to the two others, can develop without interacting much with other civs, but it doesn't mean that he won't intervene when needed.

Also :
- UC means Unique component (all of the unique bonus of a civilization except the UA => unique units, unique buildings, unique improvements)
- UA means Unique Ability
- UB means Unique Building
- UW means Unique national Wonder
- UM means Unique Military unit
- UCi means Unique Civilian unit
- UGP means Unique Great People
- UI means Unique Improvement

 

[Jarula]

Here are a few questions for policy cost modifiers does a negative modifier increase cost of policies... and how do you create a bonus towards the production of national wonders?

Working on a mod that when finished you guys can place in the package.

Basically the Rome I talked about UA 20% towards production of NWs along with the base conquest building thingy along with new NWs for Rome. Nobody else is down for it so I do it myself...

So far my idea and I was wondering if OP was basically change leader name to Trajan.
The custom unique wonders provide good flat yields but require palace in city and grant basically a reduction in policy cultural cost avaliable much sooner along with zero minimum pop requirements basically try to do the whole thing with XML.

Just looking for a little pinch of help with understanding some minor minutia. Pretty much everything I can do myself and the finished product can be packaged with the mod if you guys want it (trust me it will be cool and fun IN ACTION) to both play as or against.

So far I was going to put Campus Martius at Agriculture, Aererium at currency, Temple of Jupiter at Masonry, etc...

Or another Idea I JUST THOUGHT OF you guys might think about a Roman UA for RELIGION. The conquest building thing but the second part basically uses top two most popular pantheons.

NOT A cultural rome that one... a Religious Rome... could be coolio... with a lil help I could do it myself to put in the package 1 more modder doing the modding can't hurt for the projects.

Rome had a long history of tolerance of religions of their subjects provided they provided homage to Rome. Thus ironically it wouldn't be out of character for something like that.

 

[HungryForFood]

What do you suggest exactly ? To give to GGenerals and GAdmirals the same unique action the Daimyo has in the original Meiji mod by JFD, so that you have to sacrifice the ability to produce Citadels and gain Luxury resources to trigger GAges ?

Yes, that's exactly it.