Alternative Map during 1.18

As another tiny progress update: as I am going through all the civilizations by starting date, I am currently working on the Maya. That means out of the new civilizations I have already covered Assyria, Hittites, Nubia, and the Celts.

I have to say out of those my current favourite is the Celts, but maybe that's just me. It sort of feels familiar to Polynesia and Tibet and while I like those civilizations, I don't know how many people agree.
 
I can't wait to play as the Celts, currently Europe is just so empty before the middle ages. Polynesia is basically a fun little puzzle you can do in a couple of hours but Tibet I really enjoy in the current version, satisfying to conquer independent cities in India and the population goal is a good challenge.
 
Celts likely get stomped by Rome, or should be with legions going into Gaul, Britain and Iberia.
 
Polynesia is a very relaxed game with almost zero randomness or outside factor involved, while Tibet is a lot more warlike even if you're the aggressor. I wonder where the Celts compare on that axis.
 
Since Carthage has now been replaced by Phoenicia, can we add other history Phoenician colonies as their historical areas?
e.g. Crete Island(Itanos,kommos)
Portugal (Lisbon, which is Alis Ubbo in Phoenician)
Anatolia(Phoenix,Myriandus)
 
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Since Carthage has now been replaced by Phoenicia, can we add other history Phoenician colonies as their historical areas?
e.g. Crete Island(Itanos,kommos)
Portugal (Lisbon, which is Alis Ubbo in Phoenician)
Anatolia(Phoenix,Myriandus)
Independent colonies would be so great, saves you the trouble of building settlers.
 
Suggestion: Remove Japan's historical areas in Manchuria and replace them with conquered areas similar to Russia (maybe except for the Liaodong Peninsula region). I think Russia should also gain the Liaodong Peninsula as their historical area and North Korea as their conquered area (perhaps America also can gain South Korea as their conquered area?)
 
As another tiny progress update: as I am going through all the civilizations by starting date, I am currently working on the Maya. That means out of the new civilizations I have already covered Assyria, Hittites, Nubia, and the Celts.

I have to say out of those my current favourite is the Celts, but maybe that's just me. It sort of feels familiar to Polynesia and Tibet and while I like those civilizations, I don't know how many people agree.
I don't know how other people feel, but I love the "puzzle feel" small / local civs. I hope to see more in the future! Very excited for the Celts!
 
I completed a Tibet run for the first time recently and I thought it was great, maybe one of my favorites. Sort of on the border between puzzle civ and military civ. Very different from Polynesia, I thought, which is another one of my favorites, but I view it as a pretty pure puzzle civ, so I'd be interested to see how the Celts remind one of both. I guess some similarities are expansion and great person generation? That sounds right for the Celts.
 
On the game rules front, I spent some time recently to rebalance the various kinds of city maintenance: number of cities, distance, and colonies.

For number of cities, I only made sure that it scales better with the map size, but nothing fundamentally changed.

I made some more extensive changes for distance and colony maintenance. Before going into the actual changes I think I should describe in more detail how colony maintenance used to work because I rarely see it discuss and I don't think everyone knows. In the vanilla game rules (unchanged in RFC and DoC) all cities that are not on the same continent as the capital pay colony maintenance. The definition of continent here is what I usually express as "landmass", i.e. a contiguous area of land. Meaning that e.g. Britain and Ireland are separate continents from mainland Europe and consequently England pays colony maintenance for European cities. Colony maintenance increases quadratically with the number of cities on the same continent after the first city, e.g. if you have one city on another continent you pay 0 colony maintenance, if you have two you 1x, if you have three you pay 4x etc. This may look like a steep curve but there are (map and difficulty based) scaling modifiers that make it not as punishing as it sounds.

Actually, with base rules, even with multiple cities on the same continent it is very rare to see more than 1 gold in colony maintenance. Note that colony maintenance is entirely independent of distance, but it does increase with city size.

From these base rules, I have made the following changes:
  • You now only have to pay colony maintenance if the city is genuinely on a different continent, i.e. islands are counted as part of the biggest neighbouring continent (e.g. Britain is counted as Europe, Japan as Asia etc)
  • However for the scaling factor of colony maintenance, still the proper landmass is considered
  • Scaling of colony maintenance begins with the first city, not the second city
  • However if there is only one city on the entire landmass, the colony maintenance is still 0
  • I overall increased the modifier to colony maintenance to make it more impactful
  • I introduced a civ based modifier to colony maintenance similar to the existing number of cities and distance modifiers and balanced it accordingly. Some colonial civs that received a strong (i.e. low) colony maintenance modifier had their distance modifier weakened (i.e. increased) to compensate.
  • City distance maintenance is halved when the city is considered a colony (i.e. on another continent as the capital)
  • City distance maintenance now scales with player era: the impact of distance is highest in the ancient era, reaches its lowest point in the industrial era, and increases with the global and digital eras to be slightly above the Renaissance again
  • The English UP has been changed: it no longer limits city distance maintenance, instead it reduces the number of cities counted for colony maintenance by 1, effectively reducing their colony maintenance costs
Several considerations are behind these changes. The main purpose was to make colonial civilizations easier to balance. Colonies are supposed to be desirable for these civilizations, but also should not give them too much of an advantage relative to other civilizations. Previously, the only lever to balance this was their distance maintenance modifier. However, that was a crude tool, it often led to either backwards or runaway colonial civs, especially England and Portugal.

With these changes, colony maintenance now should not be negligible and instead becomes a significant concern. The benefit of colony maintenance is that it is independent of distance, making colonies regardless of their location more valuable, without having to give those civs distance maintenance modifiers that make them too powerful at the same time. At the same time, the fact that colony maintenance scales quadratically means that it will better limit huge colonial empires like England controlling all of India. Nevertheless, in more common configurations distance maintenance is still the dominant factor - for example a 1700 Portugal is paying around 7g for distance, 2g for number of cities, and 3g for colony maintenance in its Brazilian cities. The new English UP is to stop letting them ignore distance altogether while still helping them maintain a larger colonial empire than others. Of course, England (along with France) also has a strong colony maintenance modifier.

The era-scaling distance maintenance is half related to this. Part of its purpose is to give the greatest benefit of colonial empires to the Renaissance and Industrial eras, and give them diminishing returns afterwards. But another motivation was the early game. Compared to 1.17 DoC, the scale of the map and the available number of turns means that it is now more common to control a lot of cities even in the ancient and classical eras (imagine the typical Assyria, Persia, or Rome game, but it applies to a lot of civs). This made number of cities maintenance the dominant kind of maintenance, which I thought was unsatisfying because it made city location matter almost not at all (e.g. you pay 3g in number of cities maintenance regardless of location - then it rarely matters whether the distance maintenance comes out to 0.4 or 1.4). For this reason the impact of city distance is much higher in the ancient and classical eras. I think this also helps with immersion because it reflects the contemporary perception of distances and the knowledge about the world.

Entirely unrelatedly, I also decided to balance inflation. As a reminder, inflation is not a game mechanic intended to model economic inflation but rather just the name of the mechanic intended to reflect rising costs that come with the economic growth happening during the course of the game. I realised that the game code does not automatically adjust inflation to the game length, it simply scales with the number of turns elapsed no matter how long the game is. This caused inflation to be overall too high throughout the game, and to be impactful too early during its course. I addressed this by adding additional turns before inflation "kicks in", so the total number of turns that inflation scales should be the same as in 1.17. I will keep monitoring this aspect of the game as it is quite important for mid and late game tech speed, but for now it looks alright.

As with all balance changes like this, they are not meant to be perfect from this first pass onwards - I do not have enough capacity to observe all of that just on my own, so I expect to get back to it once I can get more player feedback. For now it was only important to me that the system works in broad strokes so that I have a solid foundation for further tech speed and civilization balancing, and for now it looks quite good.
Alongside changes to Inflation, will there be changes to Civ specific modifiers? For example Research Costs for some civs being 90% and others being 120%. (I hope so.)
 
I don't know what you mean.
 
I don't know what you mean.
The various values that determine costs throughout the game. For example here Turkey has a 120 research cost to America's 75 - with a 60% advantage, it's hard to see how no matter how good the Turkish economy is, America will outpace them at research. This contributes greatly to the issue of the US and UK being the sole tech leaders in 90% of games. It's also frustrating as a player to see an AI with a naturally hardcoded advantage that you can't overcome. It also leads to weird situations like the Japan and Germany UHV being best achieved by naval-invading New York and London in the 1890s.
 

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The various values that determine costs throughout the game. For example here Turkey has a 120 research cost to America's 75 - with a 60% advantage, it's hard to see how no matter how good the Turkish economy is, America will outpace them at research. This contributes greatly to the issue of the US and UK being the sole tech leaders in 90% of games. It's also frustrating as a player to see an AI with a naturally hardcoded advantage that you can't overcome. It also leads to weird situations like the Japan and Germany UHV being best achieved by naval-invading New York and London in the 1890s.
What difficulty are you playing at? I don't think Leoreth balances the games for difficulties above monarch.

Like the poster above said, the modifiers exist to stop the game being dominated by the oldest, most built-up civs every time. Instead we have America and Britain dominating every time, unless you ahistorically do the impossible (in real life) and invade both in the industrial/modern era. I think there's definitely room for balancing - Japan and Germany's technological achievements were made entirely peacefully after WW2, for example. But representing that in Civilization IV is another matter entirely.
 
I still don't follow. You have not explained what your issue is or what the change should be. You have just described what tech modifiers are.
 
I still don't follow. You have not explained what your issue is or what the change should be. You have just described what tech modifiers are.
The issue is that America and the UK are granted permanent bonuses to vital game metrics which therefore means they're the world leaders in most games.
This makes the game less interesting because it's pre-scripted which civs will be the strongest and most advanced in most games.
For those playing in Asia, it guarantees Anglo supremacy even if the Mongols are defeated and the colonists are repelled. For those playing Europe, it guarantees English supremacy even if Britain is brought to heel and denied its Indian riches. For those simply observing, it makes the save less interesting because a small group of civs are guaranteed to
It's historically inappropriate - it implies that British and American advantages in history were some unique, god-granted modifier that they earned by virtue of their civilization, rather than a product of their environment, terrain, government and foreign policy.
It encourages ahistorical gameplay that breaks immersion, like conquering London in 1890 as Japan. This doesn't make me feel like my strategy or mastery of gameplay has prevailed - it makes me feel like I've won because I figured out how to gank the fragile Civ 4 AI.
Finally, it's bad game design because it's a permanent advantage that cannot be altered by good strategy. Strategic gameplay is gameplay that puts decisions in the hands of players - conqueror spawns can be beat by deciding to build an army instead of economy/research/culture buildings. Colonial spawns can be beat by remaining solid by foregoing optimal civics or conquests in favour of stability. Religious challenges can be taken on by running theocracy and spamming missionaries. The British tech advantage cannot be beat other than by gamey strategies, which is why every Germany, America and Japan guide recommends conquering London in the Industrial era.
 
I'm sorry but I don't completely understand your line of thinking BaneFire. For one, isn't most UHVs a combination of something the civ historically achieved and something they didn't do but perhaps aspired to, "forcing" most civs to be played somewhat ahistorically if you are going for the UHV as a player? Why is conquering London as Japan more immersion-breaking than the Mayas discovering Europe before they discover them?

And there are modifiers with regards to just about everything for every civ, including unit production, cultural output, and what not, not only the US and the English. I assume you know that, so if you're saying they are too strong and should be nerfed, that's of course completely valid, but it's not like it's unique at all that some civs are more likely than not to succeed and do well? You make it sound like it's something very special and unfair for them to have a tech bonus?
 
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I'm sorry but I don't completely understand your line of thinking BaneFire. For one, isn't most UHVs a combination of something the civ historically achieved and something they didn't do but perhaps aspired to, "forcing" most civs to be played somewhat ahistorically if you are going for the UHV as a player? Why is conquering London as Japan more immersion-breaking than the Mayas discovering Europe before they discover them?

And there are modifiers with regards to just about everything for every civ, including unit production, cultural output, and what not, not only the US and the English. I assume you know that, so if you're saying they are too strong and should be nerfed, that's of course completely valid, but it's not like it's unique at all that some civs are more likely than not to succeed and do well? You make it sound like it's something very special and unfair for them to have a tech bonus?
In the industrial era, Spain's research cost is 80, America's is 75, Germany's is 70, Japan's is 110. What is so essentially superior about American and German civilization that they have 25-30% bonuses to research? Conversely, what is so essentially inferior about Japanese civilization that they have a 10% malus to research?
 
Absolutely nobody has at any point claimed that Japanese civilization is inferior to any other, and I fail to see what that rhetoric achieves. US and Germany get better tech modfiers in order to make it more likely that they are amongst the more advanced civs as they were historically and that they do well all in all and are among the scoreboard leaders. I'm no expert on Japanese history, but as far as I am aware Japan were lagging behind the Western World untill Perry and The Meiji Restoration where they started to catch up, very simplified, which is why they have the UP that they have. If they had better modifiers they would most likely be too strong too early in too many games, and that is not supposed to happen. How is that controversial?

It's not a matter at all of which civ is superior or inferior to others in a moral or qualitative sense. The Netherlands have some of the best modifiers of all civs in the game because they start late and with just one city, and the aim is to encourage them to do well in tech and get a colonial empire along the lines of what they had historically. Even though they personally are one of my favourite nations in the world, I am quite sure that neither Leoreth nor the vast majority of people who play this mod consider the Dutch especially to be the uncontested supreme civilization of the world. We just acknowledge that they get the modifiers they do because that is what makes sense in-game in order to simulate the historical development.

I'm sorry but with all due respect, if you at its core consider different modifiers and historical outcomes being encouraged in various other ways to be unfair and bad for your enjoyment of playing (which sounds to be the case), then perhaps this mod may just not be your cup of tea. That's perfectly fine of course, but none of this should really come as any surprise at all given how this mod has been designed and thought out from its very inception.
 
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I think we’re a bit thrown because, *if we’re understanding what you are trying to say*, what I’m reading doesn’t sound like words that would come from “one of the DoC gang”. That is, one who seems to have been on board and in touch with the mod’s design goals. So instead I suspect some minor mental hiccup is causing the fuss. My guess: you’re just *not quite* grasping the function of civ modifiers as simply tools in a limited set available to achieve specific goals rather than historical commentaries, if you will.

Short version: it’s kinda working exactly as it should. Empires rising and falling over time and stuff. Celebrate with us.
 
I think we’re a bit thrown because, *if we’re understanding what you are trying to say*, what I’m reading doesn’t sound like words that would come from “one of the DoC gang”. That is, one who seems to have been on board and in touch with the mod’s design goals. So instead I suspect some minor mental hiccup is causing the fuss. My guess: you’re just *not quite* grasping the function of civ modifiers as simply tools in a limited set available to achieve specific goals rather than historical commentaries, if you will.

Short version: it’s kinda working exactly as it should. Empires rising and falling over time and stuff. Celebrate with us.
Thanks for the rather patronising comment considering I've been playing this mod and posting on this forum for ~6 years now.

You've identified the problem in your comment - "simply tools in a limited set" - so why is the idea of modernising those tools, as the game undergoes multiple changes, so outrageous?
 
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