Always War Mansa

[Drakon136]

Alright, I think I'll give this a shot. Gonna be attempting it on Noble though, definitely a drop from my usual Monarch games but I haven't played AW before so why not.

@Pangaea: You are correct, XP from animals is capped at 5.

 

[elitetroops]

@Drakon, for an easier version, you can also try Epic speed. Though it might make it too different to the rest of the games played... Epic Monarch should be winnable with ancient/classical units, if you manage those units well.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for clearing that up (not so) ConfusedCounsel and Drakon

 

[Pangaea]

Have played 50 turns myself now, and may have agree with Gurni

Spoiler :

Only built one settler before starting on the Great Wall. So much land around us, and the AIs are far away, that I didn't want to risk getting invaded. Without being able to workersteal, the 3rd city wouldn't get any tiles improved early on anyway. Got the GWall in T50 (or technically T49). Didn't locate AI borders until T40, but then I managed to double workersteal a little later, and the Woodie2 is now leading the workers home.

Deliberated on where to put city #2, but eventually put it NW on the coast, with gold in inner ring. No food, but farmed floodplains is better than dry rice anyway. And later down the line it can work the clam. One of the boons is that it can help grow a few cottages for the capital. Only two forests, but I'll try to chop out the Oracle there.

With the GW done, I've started on a new settler in the capital, but am not sure where to put it yet. Located horses up north, and silver south, but need to explore the coast SW first to make sure I don't kill any fish by for instance settling on the PH by the pig. That said, I actually can't settle on that tile any more, because a barb city spawned two tiles from it

Unfortunately I've only met two AIs, Mehmed and Elizabeth, and both are far away (not yet located English borders), so we're probably alone on this land, which looks pretty big. Have spotted an off-coast jungle north, but don't know yet if it's a small island or a new continent.

Should have inspected the land much more than I did in WB, to make sure we had more AIs on 'our' land. Such good land around us, and only two AIs, make this much easier than AW usually is. It can serve as a smooth introduction I suppose. But will probably for all intents and purposes play much like a normal game, where people can choose their victory condition and bang up AIs at their leisure.

There is even a third gold to the east, and a perfect throttling spot in the west. Only way to improve it is if it was on a hill, but at least there is a forest, so one can actually fort it and make it one hell of a chokepoint. But with (probably) only one AI over there, it won't be nearly as crucial as if there were e.g. 4 guys in that general direction.

Screengrab:

Spoiler :

 

[Gumbolt]

Time to retire as map maker? Might it be better to challenge Seraiel to create an immortal AW map? I am sure Bic would welcome the challenge from a seasoned player like Seraiel. Bic also had a good idea for a map on the first challenge with Ottoman.

Maybe edit up previous map for a much stronger start? Overall maps need to have a challenge. Your first attempt on immortal AW on the first map you retired as too hard and dropped down a level.

You then created a map with a much weaker starting areas making the challenge much harder. I think here the issue seems to be the map layout. Maps like this needs channels so the Ai can reach you and attack you at choking points. They also need Ai put there to distract you from the real threat to allow 2-3 Ai to actually develop. Ai having open borders early is key too otherwise they may just fight among themselves if they never find you.

That being said I love fact you are actually setting up maps like this for people to play. It keeps this forum active. well least to next SGOTM in a few weeks time. (Hopefully.)

 

[Pangaea]

Time to retire as map maker?

Definitely!

But I'm playing this further to see how it develops. Maybe it's not as "easy" as it looks. Depends what capitals the AIs have, and what they do. T50-60 is still pretty early, so much can happen yet. And if it does turn out to be way on the easy side, maybe it will get some interest among more people for this kind of game. It's not hilarious fun to get your ass handed to you after all. And that is what happened in the Charlie map.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah definately play it on to the crunch point around 500ad when the stacks get more serious on these kind of games. Good luck. Still not finished the last game yet. Need to sit at computer and actually play games!!

 

[MegaLurker]

I see nothing wrong with an easier AW game. I'm still working on the Sitting Bull one from ages ago, it'll be nice to take a break from those long, stressful turns and play a little looser. And not feel like I need to brace myself mentally every time I hit enter.

 

[Pangaea]

Played to 725BC, which was a suitable place to stop due to what happened.

Spoiler :

Things have gone well, and so far it hasn't felt like an Always War game. Probably partly because I've stolen 3 workers from Mehmed, which must have set him back somewhat. Wish I could have stolen more, but a barb archer assaulted the Woodie2, and it nearly died, and needed 9 turns to heal

Unfortunately I see a high-yield mine by his capital, so he has iron. Mehmed usually builds a lot of units, so it's only a matter of time before he drops by with some chaps to say hello.

However, we have a trick up our sleeves




Building Oracle in the 2nd city took a long time, with only two possible chops, so I could only have finished it 1-2 turns earlier, where I could have taken CoL or MC. Figured Feudalism would be better. Skirmishers are good, but Longbows are better.

Naturally this meant some new civics. Vassalage is doubly good. A promotion even without a barracks, and more free units (less maintenance).




Mehmed sent a few lone units, and eventually Joao too, but I've not seen an actual stack yet, which is very late for AW, as it's well past 1000BC now.

Since I didn't Oracle CoL, I tried to tech it normally, and get a religion that way. Managed that, and below is the overview at 725BC, with 6 cities. Wouldn't call any of them a defensive chokepoint, but I'm eyeing one to the east that might serve. Though, to be honest, I'm not even sure if it's needed on this map. Of course, those words may come back and bite me




Have finally spotted copper, but it's far away. It may therefore be a good idea to self-tech IW next, and bank on it popping up nearby. Then again, we don't truly need it, due to longbow access, and it would arguably be better to get to Alpha instead, make some spies and send them towards Mehmed (everybody else seem to be a world away), in preparation for the GSpy that arrives in 13 turns (T99).

Quite frankly, this looks like a preposterously good map. Triple gold, even double silver, both stone and marble somewhat close by, horses (several). No copper, but I'll be surprised if there isn't iron somewhere (over such a big area, there tends to be at least either copper or iron somewhere). A fair few happiness resources too, once Calendar is online. And on top of that, the AIs are miles and miles away, giving us a lot more breathing room than normally. I thought only two were on the same continent, but I've now learnt there are three. Both Joao and Elizabeth are far away, though. I've yet to see Elizabeth's borders, so I'm surprised her scout located us as early as he did.

Would be nice with some food along the coast, but we can't have it all, can we?

 

[Seraiel]

Oh, and btw Seraiel, Pacifism may be a cracking idea in normal games to pump out GPs, but here, when you need heaps and heaps of military units to protect yourself? Maybe not... It becomes expensive, and the economy is already likely to be in a bad shape due to high unit maintenance.

e: But being SPI, it can at least be an option for a limited time.

Many players (incl. me) initially think that Pacifism would be a very expensive civic when having a large military, but Pacifism doesn't cost any maintenance, therefore the military really has to be very large for Pacifism to be more expensive than OR or Theo.

Time to retire as map maker? Might it be better to challenge Seraiel to create an immortal AW map? I am sure Bic would welcome the challenge from a seasoned player like Seraiel. Bic also had a good idea for a map on the first challenge with Ottoman.

Maybe edit up previous map for a much stronger start? Overall maps need to have a challenge. Your first attempt on immortal AW on the first map you retired as too hard and dropped down a level.

You then created a map with a much weaker starting areas making the challenge much harder. I think here the issue seems to be the map layout. Maps like this needs channels so the Ai can reach you and attack you at choking points. They also need Ai put there to distract you from the real threat to allow 2-3 Ai to actually develop. Ai having open borders early is key too otherwise they may just fight among themselves if they never find you.

That being said I love fact you are actually setting up maps like this for people to play. It keeps this forum active. well least to next SGOTM in a few weeks time. (Hopefully.)

I can set up the next map if there'll be players interested in it, but then I need to resign from playing the map, because I'd want to make sure that certain criteria are met (i. e. I'd check the distribution of the resources, especially the strategical ones but the early Luxuries are also very important and I'd hand-pick the opponents to make it a little more interesting) .

What I would definitely not touch would be the layout of the map and I'd definitely not edit any extra chokepoints in it. I find it ok to make sure the player is presented an interesting map that is assured to be fair and that offers some interesting challenges (it i. e. could be interesting to choose some low peaceweight opponents that'll be friendly towards each other more easily, but then make sure that there are some good techers below them, so that it doesn't end in an endless unit-spam-fest against which the player only needs to stay alive against and which garantuees him to win via using a tech-advantage later) but I already disliked the design of those Deity-OCC-maps that were played 2-3y ago very much already, because they only allowed incomings from one direction which eleminated a whole challenge, and those maps also had their resources placed in that manor that they were safe from AI attacks and they also had additional modifications that all dumbed down the difficulty so that it not even remotely had anything to do with a normal game anymore.

If there is a chokepoint on the map, fine, advantage towards the player, but then I'd i. e. make sure that the player isn't handed Stone + Copper + that he has Gold and maybe would place an AI so close to the choke-point, the the player needs to fight to get it . I'd generally very much try to provide a balanced & interesting challenge, that differs from the standard S&T games as much as it won't come close towards the typically cooked 2 Gold 2 Corn HoF games, but I definitely will not i. e. refuse to give the player Gold, Gems or Silver and argue that 1 Gems means that this is a HoF start, and that all S&T games need to be played with dry-Corn but otoh need to ensure that 19/20 tiles are grasslands, that the start has 5 green Hills, a river and 15+ forests.

The last (though it may sound like that) is not ment to ridicule any persons, it's ment in a non-aggressive way and if at most it's written to make people smile.

 

[Pangaea]

Many players (incl. me) initially think that Pacifism would be a very expensive civic when having a large military, but Pacifism doesn't cost any maintenance, therefore the military really has to be very large for Pacifism to be more expensive than OR or Theo.

I'm aware of that, but in these games, at least the more normal AW games, you need a huge military to defend yourself, usually have few cities, and thus little pop, so unit maintenance is quite expensive. Even though Pacifism costs less, the military costs of it will typically outweigh what you save. It did so by a good margin in the Suleiman map for me at least, and I did some calculations on it then.

For better or worse, this map plays a bit differently, so maybe one can play it more like a normal game, and then Pacifism could be a real choice. And being spiritual, it's of course quite nice to be able to make 'free' swaps.

Small note on my game in 500BC:

Spoiler :

Got Alpha in 500BC, and none of the four AIs I've met have it yet. Two are missing Writing!

Saw a 10-unit stack from Mehmed though, so maybe there will be some action soon.

7 cities (had to postpone settling the 7th for 4-5 turns due to a Portuguese Axe. Capital is size 11, soon 12.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Pangaea:

Spoiler :

Well played. There's one thing I thought though when reading the 1st post you wrote and seeing your 2nd city. Iirc. you wrote something that it doesn't has food, not sure if I just didn't read the "in the first ring" , the only thing I'm not sure if you were aware of it though was, that settling on the dry Rice could be a better choice than if settling in a kind that preserves the full tile value. The way how you settled and with this being an AW-game you might even need to defend the dry Rice, and a 3 centre-tile is imo. even better than a 4 food-tile in domination / conquest games, because the cities will get constantly whipped so will stay small, so a 3 centre that's always available is better than a 4 food-tile, at least when other food is available.

 

[elitetroops]

@ Pangaea:

Spoiler :

Well played. There's one thing I thought though when reading the 1st post you wrote and seeing your 2nd city. Iirc. you wrote something that it doesn't has food, not sure if I just didn't read the "in the first ring" , the only thing I'm not sure if you were aware of it though was, that settling on the dry Rice could be a better choice than if settling in a kind that preserves the full tile value. The way how you settled and with this being an AW-game you might even need to defend the dry Rice, and a 3 centre-tile is imo. even better than a 4 food-tile in domination / conquest games, because the cities will get constantly whipped so will stay small, so a 3 centre that's always available is better than a 4 food-tile, at least when other food is available.

Spoiler :

Yes, city on dry rice is better as long as you can work a riverside grassland farm. City by the river and work dry rice, city tile + rice is 611. City on rice and work grassland farm and you make 1 more. And of course you don't have to work that grassland farm, can work something else and still get the food bonus. (This doesn't take into account lost health from lack of freshwater or the possibility to get rice irrigated later in the game.)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Reserved.

 

[Gumbolt]

Seraiel I am sure we would all welcome a map from you on that basis. It's strange even on a always war map how the Ai still build so many non military builds. In some ways the AI simply can't cope with AW. Especially if their stacks keep dying quickly and the human player is able to take very few losses.

 

[Pangaea]

@Seraiel

Spoiler :

Settling on dry rice isn't something I considered (because I didn't think about it), but don't think I would have done that here anyway. Wanted the 2nd gold in inner ring so we could work it right away, and it's nice to work some cottage spots for the capital, and get those southern FPs too. Settling on rice would also have busted the spot I later settled up north, which may turn out to be a pretty good production spot.

Am pleased with how things have gone so far, although it hasn't truly felt like a "back against the wall" AW game.
It's always nice to secure a religion. Mehmed founded Hinduism in my game, so at some point I could have got that, but maybe not for a long time, because he's a unit spammer, and I have to think that at some point there will be pressure from either him or the east.

Looks like some people have downloaded the start, so how are you getting on?

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

@Seraiel

Spoiler :

Settling on dry rice isn't something I considered (because I didn't think about it), but don't think I would have done that here anyway. Wanted the 2nd gold in inner ring so we could work it right away, and it's nice to work some cottage spots for the capital, and get those southern FPs too. Settling on rice would also have busted the spot I later settled up north, which may turn out to be a pretty good production spot.

Am pleased with how things have gone so far, although it hasn't truly felt like a "back against the wall" AW game.
It's always nice to secure a religion. Mehmed founded Hinduism in my game, so at some point I could have got that, but maybe not for a long time, because he's a unit spammer, and I have to think that at some point there will be pressure from either him or the east.

Looks like some people have downloaded the start, so how are you getting on?

I've played till 1580. Considering it is my first AW game I'd say it is going well, but slow and grindy. I'll keep the spoilers below to a minimum.

Spoiler :

Build a city (Gao) on the chokepoint to the Ottomans. My expansion has been eastwards, and I've finally wiped out the Portuguese. The Ottomans are the technological frontrunners, but we both have rifles (and only we do). Plan on keeping on the assault in the east, as the English should be easy pickings. Once I get cannons I can focus on taking on the Ottomans. Until then the walls of Gao have to remain strong.

 

[Pangaea]

Doesn't sound like it's going slow if you've played to 1580AD already

I'm approaching 1AD.

 

[MegaLurker]

Nice one Pangea, I chose a different Oracle tech...

Spoiler :

Feudalism is a smart, safe choice imo. We both took a big risk with our dates. The AIs you don't contact early I assume have the same likelihood to build wonders as any normal Immortal game, so even 1400BC is probably a gamble.

My thinking on Machinery instead of Feudalism was

-already have skirmishers, LBs become a 50% upgrade instead of 100% over archers
-xbows are a good defense/offense unit with that same base 6 strength as LBs
-unlocking the Mint with MC is nice
-prereq for engineering and maces

We'll see how it goes. This game is definitely easy-mode with the land that's immediately available on top of the top tier leader/civ.

 

[Pangaea]

That's a very nice choice too MegaLurker

Spoiler :

The date was risky, but I figured it was worth it. No huge downside, because Skirmishers are already capable city defenders, and besides, Judaism went late, so there should be a chance - which there thankfully was Also, building the Oracle in the city where I did it was very slow, so we could only have completed it 1-2 turns earlier.

Naturally crossbows are better on the offense, but I also wanted another promotion, and less unit maintenance. Although the map is easy mode as you say, I've not wanted to go on the offense.

Update at 1AD.

Spoiler :

Have been able to raze two barb cities after Joao and Mehmed failed to take them, which netted over 200 . That is now helping us towards Civil Service. But before that, I sidetracked to HBR so I could capture that nice barb city in our interior. About time to start developing those FPs, which the barbs didn't want to do, despite having a worker (but building a cottage south of the city). I didn't threaten them, so that was a little odd, but hey ho.

Like mentioned before, it feels more like a normal game than an AW one. We're not terribly far off 200 at 1AD, and that's without an Academy. Soon we'll have CS, and then I'll change from Vassalage to Buro. With such a good capital, it should be better than an extra promotion on units, that mostly don't see combat anyway.

The GSpy has been exploring Mehmed's land, but he's stuck in the jungle and Joao is doing a little better, so I've started him on the long path to the other side of the world instead, so he can infiltrate there. Think it will be better. But we had enough EPs on Mehmed to steal IW. Bad luck with that, but at least I know where it is now.

Still not seen any real attacks. I know Mehmed has a fairly big stack, but it's resting in Ankara for some reason, on his NE coast. Joao has finally stopped by with 12 units, which should attack this or next turn. Good to have that blocker city now, and the timing was nice, as we 1-popped a wall this very turn. Have 6 skirmishers in there, so we should be able to easily hold it, especially behind a wall, but you never know. The RNG can be evil.

Spoiler :

Overview:

Spoiler :

Unfortunate that all 3 sources of iron are just out of reach of our culture, so I'm building a settler in the capital to grab the one NE of Timbuktu. It can borrow corn from the capital and grow a little, but the main job is to fetch us iron.



I see the pig happens to hide it, but the capital is size 12. I whipped out a courthouse earlier, because the idea Seraiel mentioned about running a spy there seemed like a cracking idea, so I can get out a 2nd GSpy, and probably build Scotland Yard.

To be honest, we could probably just play this more like a normal game and get an Academy and all that stuff, but I want to pretend it's a regular AW game, and see how the espionage economy will turn out this time

Edit: This is a combat log to my liking