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Ancient City Ruins

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Rainbow Sand, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    Quick clarification because this occasionally starts unnecessary fights: "Intelligent Design" here refers specifically to Young Earth Creationists who propose a scientific theory of an Earth and universe approximately 5,000 years old and a mass conspiracy to create false evidence to suggest otherise (such as dinosaurs and the necessary age of visible stars farther then 5,000 light years away). This is the name they created for themselves and the name they are recognized by by the scientific community, and does not include a majority of religions or even Christianity under its heading.
     
  2. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    So very true.

    And I don't mind sending a tentacle to "this" catgirl. Can't even find her cute.

    And getting sentience into a block of granit is not opposite to have physical law (and logic) respected.
    Any "physical law" can be changed in a fantasy world. It only needs the "author" to state it (think magic). On the other hand, logic using those premices can allways be respected. And it's always better if it is respected.


    (and How do you know that golem have sentience ? they are automated blocks of stone. Only Barnakkus has sentience. And it needed the magic of a God.) (The other golems are animated through the many dots of silicon + copper/silver/gold threads + sand (SiO2)... in the head/or on all their body : You really thought it was decorative ? no: electronics .. maybe the luirchips don't understand how they do it, but the magic used to create stone golems forms electronic components to allow them to respond to orders :D but that is still not sentience!)
     
  3. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

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    Yes, absolutely correct. Sorry for being too general. :D
     
  4. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    But we know that this isn't true, and golems aren't animated by electronics; the Luchuirp are channeling the power of a god as magic to enchant an unliving object with vitality and motion. Necromancy, similarly, is not "high-powered medicine"; creatures such as wraiths and the drowned have no logical, natural explanation.

    Remember that the first premise of FFH is that an all-powerful god created a host of insanely powerful archangels and gifted them with magic; the natural laws did not exist prior to their creation at the hands of these archangels and thus do not need to follow logical or scientific principles. This is what the setting is built on, so you can't throw this out without tossing the setting too.

    This is not some far-off corner of our universe; this is a plane of existence with no relation whatsoever, brought into being through will and mighty workings rather then celestial events. Science comes secondary to the desires and intentions of Erebus' creators; there is no gravity, there is Dagda's opinion on how things should balance in regards to each other. There is no H20, there is the creative impulse of Danalin given form.

    If these things hold verisimilitude to our world, and they do, certainly assumptions can be made - but not assumptions that challenge the setting itself. If the way a natural force or law is implemented is inconsistent with RL science, it's because the god-angel in charge of that sphere of influence had an idea that diverged from the path our reality takes.

    So don't overthink it. The debate doesn't go anywhere that can't be summed up with a wizard did it. Plus, it's not fun - there's ton of sci-fi and even technology-advanced-so-far-it-became-magic-and-we-all-forgot-we-invented-it, but bringing a simulationist framework to fantasy is as pointless as it is cruel.
     
  5. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    oh.. and how do you know that channeling the power of a god as magic to enchant an unliving object with vitality and motion. doesn't come with creating some some arrangement of material that one of your physic teacher could see as a kind of electronics ?

    Necromancy is necromancy, period.
     
  6. Torugu

    Torugu Prince

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    You are talking about FFH golems, it is common knowledge that Rife golems are powered by hamsters wheels. ;)
     
  7. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    Because we know otherwise. Go read some of the spell-and-sphere descriptions, or note magic's use in the lore; magic is an effort of will that breaks the established principles of Erebus and remolds them to the caster's desire. Your suggestion would be possible in a similar fantasy world, but it's not necessary here, because we know that magic doesn't need such an arrangement of material - to animate a golem, it merely needs to be articulate and sturdy enough to serve. There's no reason to turn magic golems into robots; it would be a waste of time and effort for the Luchuirp.

    Now, the Mechanos do use steampunk, but steampunk isn't real science either, it's the deliberate handwaving of actual physics because clockwork is cool.

    You're going out of your way to posit an idea that is, again, workable - but demonstrably not in this game. If you can agree that necromancy is necromancy, why can't enchantment be enchantment?
     
  8. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    because you don't need enchantement mana in order to make golem, only sculptor studio, maybe marble.
    I would know, I'm playing currently a luirchip game.

    and what is a "clockwork golem" ??? clockwork means mechanisms...

    and, in the end, how would you know?
    I you don't, I can't either, and both our solution are possible and leave us think as we want.
    Furthermore, Mine was a JOKE. You take it too seriously.

    Any fantasy where everything can only be explained by "a wizard done it" is generaly boring.
    That explanation is only worth the price of the ink used only if special case, when it is essential to the plot or to a joke or something but the author couldn't think of an explanation relative to the way he previously described the world and magic.
    You seem to be of the kind that can't find logic in a fantasy world.

    When you have Hyborem following Order, do you say "a wizard done it" or maybe you don't care at all... or maybe you are trying to find an explanation, a story, just for you. If you can do that, why can't you bend a little your mind and forget that "just because it's fantasy it can't have logic".
    With stories of city ruins being here "because a wizard done it"... you (well maybe you don't exactly said it, but someone did) are really like those young earth creationist : there are dinosaurs bones... because 1) conspiracy ; 2) God put them here so that we would think there was something older than 5000y.
     
  9. arcticnightwolf

    arcticnightwolf Emperor

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    idk why are you discussing this, Zerg will come lead by Queen of Blades and everything will be destroyed, no matter of state of magic ... or maybe Protoss will come and blow the whole Erebus up ... who knows ...
     
  10. dunedainjedi

    dunedainjedi Warlord

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    Actually Auric is just Mengsk in disguise.
     
  11. Koravis

    Koravis Chieftain

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    Well, neither stand a chance against an almighty omni-x god anyways so...
    hrrm, trolling or spam aside though, ignoring the general rudeness.... I like things to make sense in my fantasy worlds, for everything((Well most things anyways)) to have an explanation, rules and so on. Doesn't mean everything has to be 100% realistic in our world, but it should in theirs. That's how I like mine anyways, and I'm inclined to thinking it strange to have ruins everywhere(Which is why I don't play with it on ErebusContinent) to, the odd unique feature and the like though I'm absolutely fine with and enjoy. Suddenly making a lvl 1 orc worker mindcontrol all of Erebus chickens((Assuming they exist)) and shoot laser beams out of their eyes without an explanation of how he did it and so on isn't so much fun for me...((As awesome as it might sound...)) The omni-x god simply making all the zergs instantly disappear without an explanation of how he did it wouldn't be fun either, (Mostly due to the lack of laser beams)

    hrrm, on the topic of this not having anything at all to do with DnD... Isn't the Erebus world originally a DnD campaign world..? From the FFH manual "Based on a long running Dungeons and Dragons campaign, Fall from Heaven is set in the dark fantasy world of Erebus." ...Not that it has to follow DnD rules or anything, just think it's an interesting piece of trivia :)
     
  12. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    The Luchuirp start with Enchantment mana.

    Yes, but the clockwork mechanisms necessary to simulate a living being would require an unbelievably large contraption - city-sized - or else microscopic mechanisms which are beyond RL cutting-edge to design on that scale. Steampunk ignores this, because clockwork is cool, so you get things like steam rifles and clockwork soldiers that were never invented because science doesn't really work that way. It's about fun, not realism.

    Clear author intent? The original FfH team was very verbose, you can check out their Lore section, it's massive.

    When people tell me they're joking, I only believe them unless their entire post is something like "Dude, it was a joke". Taking the time and effort to form a rebuttal and work out the groundings of a theory suggests a certain level of serious interest.

    Agreed.

    Disagreed. I simply favor in-world logic rather then analysis attempts from an RL viewpoint. In FfH, the presence of active and visible gods directly responsible for the creation of Erebus necessitates certain adjustments of perspective. Specifically, natural laws are no longer immutable - they are the opinions of these beings, kept in operation by divine will. Magic allows a mere mortal to throw his will against the gods and, locally, win the contest - flight is not a complex mass-inertia-energy equation being balanced against gravity (as it is on Earth), it is a mage's decision that he'd rather fly vs. Dagda's decision that people can't fly.

    Because the socio-political movements of the demon empire and its leader's personality are things I can look at and try to understand without the interference of magic. Mind magic could be at work, but if mind magic is not at work, then Hyborem's motives conform to Oghma's ideas of thought and emotion, which conform to our scientific understanding.

    Basically, because I can look at that as a simple character study or political analysis. Golems are, by default, soaked in magic which precludes the will of the gods (which is relatively close to RL's natural laws) from defining their behavior. So conventional logic can't be applied.

    Well, a conspiracy/divine intervention or a wizard actually did do it by leveling an entire civilization with overwhelming arcane power. It happens. :p You're stretching my argument way past it's tolerance point, which is almost certainly a logical fallacy; I'm not saying that logic cannot apply to fantasy, I'm saying that fantasy contains unique elements which often thwart the assumptions logic is build on - logic itself, let alone logical extrapolation from understanding of the RL universe.

    To clarify, logic cannot always be applied to fantasy, and Erebus has a high ratio of disconnects due to fantasy elements.
     
  13. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I think we will have to agree on disagreeing.

    And only my first post was a joke.

    the following posts (reasonned arguments) were an answer for your post saying "you don't understand anything". So I pushed my reasoning further and further through holes in yours.

    But your arguements went only "it doesn't work like that ; it is "modifiying X with magic"".

    How can I not be tempted to answer that "how does modifying X with magic is incompatible with magic creating electronics-like circuits?".
    It is not said anywhere that golem use a "spirit of a god". (only Barnaksus and the Mithril golem need it) Just that the crafter needs more understanding of enchantement.
    Are you familiar enough with how enchantments work that you can tell me that with a 100%chance, even after the enchantment, each golem is a big block of stone/iron/wood and there is no restructuration of the atomes and materials, according to a logic that goes way beyond the crafters ability to imagine but that the innates working of enchantement magic and the god of enchantment can create and imagine ?

    If you can't tell me that, allow me to think as I want.

    to animate a monoblock of stone/wood you need one of 2 things :
    -create mecanical joints or points of the statue that become flexible,
    OR
    -make the statue become living, forming joints and muscles ...Etc (see the dragons statues in R Hobbs books).

    Thus, creating golems INDUCES at least 1 transformation of the atomes : creating mechanical joints or making that some points of the body become fluid enough that material can flow in order to not break the joints.
    If that can happen, why can't the magical effect be modifying other parts of the golem without the crafters being aware of it ?
    answer : It can! It is unprovable BUT un-refutable.

    Last argument : I can still build golems after selling my enchantement mana to another civ. Thus golem do not need enchantement mana.

    Last point : Logic can always be applied to fantasy... you just have to use the appropriate starting points. Terry Prachets disc world is completly logical within himself IMO. But if you start with "real starting points" it is completly crazy.
     
  14. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

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    All this talk of "logic" while your idea completely abandons Occam's Razor.
     
  15. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    hahaha. :p Occam's razor is a great scientific tool for logical analysis... but in this case "a wizard'done it" is opposed (by essence) to a logical "simpler explanation"...
    So claiming to use Occam's razor while justifying something with "a wizard done it" is just... :crazyeye:
     
  16. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

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    Actually it's down to proposing that magic acts via processes the Luichurp don't fully understand, or magic creates a complicated network of circuits and what-not that the Luichurp don't fully understand *and* in fact aren't even aware of.

    You can still apply Occam's Razor to this situation, and I'm afraid your idea is unnecessarily complex given the set of assumptions we're working under (ie: that magic can animate lifeless matter in the first place :p )

    To simplify: You're saying that "A wizard done it" is less simple than "A wizard done it and all these new changes to the matter happened." Which simply isn't so.
     
  17. LakeTroll

    LakeTroll Chieftain

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    Magic = does not follow natural laws
     
  18. Oranos

    Oranos Warlord

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    But Magic has to follow natural laws. Everything does. Those natural laws are just different from the laws of our world.
     
  19. Meldon

    Meldon Warlord

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    A good fantasy world has natural laws and uses logic, but has its OWN set of natural laws and uses its OWN brand of logic.
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    yep.
    That's what I'm trying to say.
     

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