AND SVN Build Thread

45°38'N-13°47'E · Jan 5, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
I posted in the General Discussion thread in C2C about this change and DH, God-Emporer and alberts2 have posted in response. alberts2 is working on AI and cleanup while Koshling is away. He's posted that he will make it a Game Option. DH wanted to know what it would affect and that it had to be there for a reason. Alberts2 replied that it was originally part of Fixed Borders but C2C does not use that part of FB anymore.

So I think it will be changed there too.

JosEPh

Yes, I've exchanged a couple of messages with alberts2; I'm happy to know they will have that option too.

I'm not sure why it was made mandatory in first place to have those 8 tiles always owned by city owner; I haven't found any post about it; my guess it's that it wasn't voluntary at first and it's been simply left there because at the time not many people complained.

JosEPh_II · Jan 5, 2014

It was done way back in v17 of C2C. I went round and round with the team over the changes they were implementing using City Limits by Civics, Fixed Borders, Realistic Culture Spread and several other related changes. I did not protest the 8 tile "always belongs to city tile" because the other changes seem more significant and game impacting at the time. And I got used to plopping a city next to an AI and using the 9 tile square to cut away at the AI's borders. A change in strategy dictated by the change to Culture's influence.

JosEPh

buck beach · Jan 5, 2014

Am I stuck with my vassel for the duration of the game. I can't seem to get him/her to budge in giving me what I want. Has the ability to demand items/cash from the vassel been disabled?

I'm playing build 667.

Buck

Rezca · Jan 5, 2014

buck beach said:
Am I stuck with my vassel for the duration of the game. I can't seem to get him/her to budge in giving me what I want. Has the ability to demand items/cash from the vassel been disabled?

I'm playing build 667.

Buck

No, they're just a lot more stingy about what they'll trade for. I've had Lincoln as a vassal for centuries, and we've got more than 24 in positive modifiers, and he still constantly asks for 2/3's of my treasury (3,600 ~ 6,000 gold requested usually) and a tech or three just for one single tech. Or half my military and workforce for the same tech.
On Warlord they should not be this greedy

On Noble or Prince maybe, but Warlord? Yes, I know that anything that helps the player they should be wary about, but honestly - we're at Friendly and have been since BC years, he's a Vassal, and it's a low difficulty without Aggressive AI or "Plays to win" sort of options enabled.

I almost rarely bother trying to trade techs with the AI since the odds that they'll offer a sane trade is dismal at best.

JosEPh_II · Jan 5, 2014

I stopped using Vassals a long long time ago because of the excessive demands from the vassal. It's just not worth the headache to have them in the game for me.

JosEPh

45°38'N-13°47'E · Jan 5, 2014

Seriously, I've never EVER had a vassal asking me for money. Did it really happen to you guys? Sometimes they ask for a tech, but not more than any other civ on the map...

Edit: Oh wait, you mean gold for a tech? Well, that's not been changed since ages, I guess.

Rezca · Jan 5, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
I stopped using Vassals a long long time ago because of the excessive demands from the vassal. It's just not worth the headache to have them in the game for me.

JosEPh

I typically get better offers from my Worst Enemies than from Friendly civs and Vassals. What's with that? I have -40 with one of the AIs, razed half a dozen of his cities... And yet he's willing to give me anywhere from 1,000 to 6,000 in gold for a single tech - and an AI whom I've shared religion with since BC years, liberated a city, gifted techs to, shared a war, and overall have a huge amount of friendship built up? Wants a tech or two and all but 100g of my treasury for the same tech. Out of all the offers I've gotten from Friendly civs this game, only ONE has been in any way sane. It was a tech and 600g for Weather Forecasting (Which I had due in 5 turns anyway). Everything else? Greedy greed.

But AI who hate me and me being their worst enemies giving me the best deals? Seems a bit backwards - unless that is supposed to simulate a "Maybe if I ask real nice, he'll ignore our past hatreds and give it to me" with the angry AIs, and the friendly ones are thinking "He loves me so he'll accept this absurd offer".

Still seems a bit.. Odd. Normally I'm trading with the AIs a ton, but as of late I've mostly been ignoring them

Too hard to find a trade that isn't 10 to 1 in their favor.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12993687 said:
Seriously, I've never EVER had a vassal asking me for money. Did it really happen to you guys? Sometimes they ask for a tech, but not more than any other civ on the map...

Edit: Oh wait, you mean gold for a tech? Well, that's not been changed since ages, I guess.

I can't remember if I've ever had a vassal ask for money even in vanilla BTS. For techs sure, but in recent revisions the offers have just been insane in every sense of the word. :crazyeye:

buck beach · Jan 6, 2014

Rezca said:
No, they're just a lot more stingy about what they'll trade for. I've had Lincoln as a vassal for centuries, and we've got more than 24 in positive modifiers, and he still constantly asks for 2/3's of my treasury (3,600 ~ 6,000 gold requested usually) and a tech or three just for one single tech. Or half my military and workforce for the same tech.
On Warlord they should not be this greedy

On Noble or Prince maybe, but Warlord? Yes, I know that anything that helps the player they should be wary about, but honestly - we're at Friendly and have been since BC years, he's a Vassal, and it's a low difficulty without Aggressive AI or "Plays to win" sort of options enabled.

I almost rarely bother trying to trade techs with the AI since the odds that they'll offer a sane trade is dismal at best.

But is there any way out of the arrangement since I no longer can declare war against them if they don't comply with my request and there seems to be no demand function?

BTW they will sell almost every resource item they have for a song.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Jan 6, 2014

buck beach said:
But is there any way out of the arrangement since I no longer can declare war against them if they don't comply with my request and there seems to be no demand function?

BTW they will sell almost every resource item they have for a song.

There IS a demand function, but it only works for resources. If you ask for resources you will see the message "Time for tribute!" If they don't comply, it's war (but they usually do, unless you have a powerful vassal).

About resources, I've seen that sometimes they trade resources away almost for nothing; I'll have to correct this. I guess it's a consequence of increasing tech costs from Medieval era onwards.

In my mind I still have a project of changing that "Vassal" function, but it's very low on the priority list right now. I'd like to resurrect an old project by Afforess (but I'm not sure I'll be able to) where relationships were somehow changed at least reaching industrial/modern era: having puppet states or allies instead of vassals (which looks quite odd in modern era).
Right now I'm working on Koshling's paging system.

Vokarya · Jan 6, 2014

Revision 668

Graphics: Moved all of my Wonder movie files out of my FPK. They should work properly now. Please inform me if any Wonder movie does not work (solid-color popup).

Tech Tree: Added Naval Aviation as prerequisite for Supersonic Flight. I always intended this but didn't notice it was missing until now.

New buildings:

Provincial Hall (Federal civic building)
Stadium (mid-Industrial Colosseum upgrade)
Spaceport (early-Transhuman Commercial Airport upgrade)
Starport (late-Transhuman Spaceport upgrade)

Building changes (list spoilered due to length)

Spoiler :

Unit changes:

All submarines can target and flank Steamer (could previously target and flank most other transport naval units)
Atomic Bomb upgrades to Tactical Nuke or MRBM
Tactical Nuke nuke range reduced to 0
Modern Infantry can upgrade to Special Infantry

This might be a good time to start another beta testing round. Let me know what the parameters are this time.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Jan 6, 2014

Nice changes Vokarya! :goodjob:

I'm almost ready with another revision myself. Koshling's paging system is the main feature, but it should also solve the problem of AI not attacking cities that someone has reported + a couple of CTD fixed. I just need some days more, possibly before the next weekend I could release another revision. I'm testing paging system myself but Koshling has made some corrections after the first version, so I'd try to release his "final" version.

Rezca · Jan 7, 2014

Yup, just another typical offer from a Friendly AI :rolleyes:

I swear, if this AI was Furious with me that huuuuge sum of gold would be on the They Offer... side instead :sad:

(I didn't negotiate the deal, instead I told him to beat it. Any time they ask for more than 20% of my treasury I say No

)

Yes, I do have a tech lead now and I have just founded Standard Ethanol (With Creative Constructions and Sid's Sushi pending), but they've been trying to shake me down like this since BC years - any Pleased or friendly AI thought they could get me to shell out my entire treasury for a single trade, even when I was behind the tech leader by a large amount. Only the Annoyed and Furious AI ever bothered to give me even remotely sane deals. :lol:

(Edit) Pft, two turns later and then Frederick calls in, also wanting Weather Forecasting (and 20,000 gold) in return for Nationalism. I say no, and then Isabella - in the same turn - also wants to trade Nationalism... In exchange for the low low price of Cavalry Tactics and 17,000 gold. :rolleyes:

JosEPh_II · Jan 7, 2014

Rezca said:
Yup, just another typical offer from a Friendly AI

I swear, if this AI was Furious with me that huuuuge sum of gold would be on the They Offer... side instead
(I didn't negotiate the deal, instead I told him to beat it. Any time they ask for more than 20% of my treasury I say No )

Yes, I do have a tech lead now and I have just founded Standard Ethanol (With Creative Constructions and Sid's Sushi pending), but they've been trying to shake me down like this since BC years - any Pleased or friendly AI thought they could get me to shell out my entire treasury for a single trade, even when I was behind the tech leader by a large amount. Only the Annoyed and Furious AI ever bothered to give me even remotely sane deals.

(Edit) Pft, two turns later and then Frederick calls in, also wanting Weather Forecasting (and 20,000 gold) in return for Nationalism. I say no, and then Isabella - in the same turn - also wants to trade Nationalism... In exchange for the low low price of Cavalry Tactics and 17,000 gold.

Be advised that when the Adv. Diplomacy mod was added to C2C that after awhile ppl complained, especially the Deity players, the AI was giving their stuff away. So the AI programmers and the whole C2C team decided to make it very lopsided. The AI Will ask for 3 to 4 times the amount (whether resources or gold or units) for what they will be willing to give up. Adv Diplomacy has been this way for sometime now.

Maybe Sgtslick will chime in as iirc he was one of the Deity players that cried foul the most about the generosity of the AI.

I have always thought that the trades should be more balanced especially after the C2C tech tree was rebalanced by Vokarya and the techs assigned uniform costs in relation to their position in the tech tree and era.

So with the merging of the C2C dll into AND things like this will become more exposed because they are not the way AND used to play.

JosEPh

Rezca · Jan 7, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
Be advised that when the Adv. Diplomacy mod was added to C2C that after awhile ppl complained, especially the Deity players, the AI was giving their stuff away. So the AI programmers and the whole C2C team decided to make it very lopsided. The AI Will ask for 3 to 4 times the amount (whether resources or gold or units) for what they will be willing to give up. Adv Diplomacy has been this way for sometime now.

Maybe Sgtslick will chime in as iirc he was one of the Deity players that cried foul the most about the generosity of the AI.

I have always thought that the trades should be more balanced especially after the C2C tech tree was rebalanced by Vokarya and the techs assigned uniform costs in relation to their position in the tech tree and era.

So with the merging of the C2C dll into AND things like this will become more exposed because they are not the way AND used to play.

JosEPh

C2C still has a ton of utterly useless techs that only seem to be there to make the game longer. Magic, Abyss Colonization, Mythological Beastiary... Don't do anything except unlock other techs.

Hm... Can those AI modifiers be adjusted by game difficulty? I think it's a bit silly that they'd make similar demands in Settler and Chieftan as they do in Diety and Immortal. I mean sure, if you're playing on Settler obviously you'd have a lot of money (Unless you're honestly just starting out in Civ), but still.

Sgtslick · Jan 7, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
Be advised that when the Adv. Diplomacy mod was added to C2C that after awhile ppl complained, especially the Deity players, the AI was giving their stuff away. So the AI programmers and the whole C2C team decided to make it very lopsided. The AI Will ask for 3 to 4 times the amount (whether resources or gold or units) for what they will be willing to give up. Adv Diplomacy has been this way for sometime now.

Maybe Sgtslick will chime in as iirc he was one of the Deity players that cried foul the most about the generosity of the AI.

I have always thought that the trades should be more balanced especially after the C2C tech tree was rebalanced by Vokarya and the techs assigned uniform costs in relation to their position in the tech tree and era.

So with the merging of the C2C dll into AND things like this will become more exposed because they are not the way AND used to play.

JosEPh

The main problem was you could trade a resource, like horses for example, and get like 3 or 4 techs, 5,000 gold, maps, all contacts etc. Then you would cancel it when it expired and just do it again.

Abusing diplomacy like this made it really easy. You didn't even need to routinely abuse it, just every know and then sell some resources and you would catch up in tech etc.

Anyway, I find AND2 the AI is pretty tight, they could do with a little bit of loosening up, but not too much. One of the main problems for the AI is they don't offer deals very often (even with each other), so in the long run, they are always at a disadvantage through diplomacy.

Rezca · Jan 7, 2014

Sgtslick said:
The main problem was you could trade a resource, like horses for example, and get like 3 or 4 techs, 5,000 gold, maps, all contacts etc. Then you would cancel it when it expired and just do it again.

Abusing diplomacy like this made it really easy. You didn't even need to routinely abuse it, just every know and then sell some resources and you would catch up in tech etc.

Anyway, I find AND2 the AI is pretty tight, they could do with a little bit of loosening up, but not too much. One of the main problems for the AI is they don't offer deals very often (even with each other), so in the long run, they are always at a disadvantage through diplomacy.

Might also explain why AIs refuse to sign Defensive Pacts at anything lower than +30 in relations and a flawless record with them (as in no negative modifiers at all)

45°38'N-13°47'E · Jan 8, 2014

AI trading will be enhanced in next revision, I've imported some more recent code from C2C which helps AI to give a tech its proper value. It should work better.

Edit: from a quick test, tech trading looks far more balanced. Stay tuned, just a few days more and a new release with big changes should come out.

Zorn · Jan 11, 2014

I have triedthe SVN update for the first time, and it worked perfectly.
However, the settings for "Formations" and the inteface color that I can select during manual installation have been reset. Can somebody point me to where I can set them?

Sgtslick · Jan 12, 2014

Zorn said:
I have triedthe SVN update for the first time, and it worked perfectly.
However, the settings for "Formations" and the inteface color that I can select during manual installation have been reset. Can somebody point me to where I can set them?

You set them in the BUG menu (in game), then when u want to update your svn and import across the new version, you copy your old user settings folder, put it on desktop or wherever, then once youve exported the new svn version into your mods folder, move your old user settings folder in aswell, this will preserve your old BUG settings.

nionios · Jan 12, 2014

Sgtslick said:
You set them in the BUG menu (in game), then when u want to update your svn and import across the new version, you copy your old user settings folder, put it on desktop or wherever, then once youve exported the new svn version into your mods folder, move your old user settings folder in aswell, this will preserve your old BUG settings.

Useful info

Sgtslick.However where is the bug settings folder?

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