And the biggest fear of ze Germans in 2017 is...

[Ryika]

...no, not Trump. Terrorism. Just like in 2016.

Kind of a random thread, but because this is fresh and this study is being analyzed in a lot of German Online newspapers right now, I felt like I'd share some numbers. So here we go.

The study by the R+V Versicherung (an insurance company...) found that 71% of the 2.380 people who were questioned for the study are afraid of terrorism. That's a decrease of 2% from 2016, but let's be honest, there wasn't much room to the ceiling left, eh? As far as I can tell, this is also the most disproportionate fear when it comes to how likely you are to actually be affected.

On second place, with 62%, is 'Political Extremism'*, followed closely by 'Tensions caused by immigration of foreigners' (61%) on third place.

(*It's probably worth noting that the interviews were conducted between the 23. June and the 28. of Juli, so many of these interviews were conducted BEFORE the riots during g20, the current picture might look different.)

One third (34%) of the people questioned fear that Germany might lose the USA as an important business partner because of Trump.

On a positive note, fear of unemployment has decreased significantly and is on 27% for their personal situation (11% less than in 2016), and 26% when asked about the overall situation of unemployment in Germany (that's 17% less than in 2016). A long-time low for Germany, and corresponds directly with the 26-year-record unemployment rate of only 5.6% (since these numbers were gathered we have arrived at 5.5%; I have no idea why Google's graphic shows 3.9%, that number is nonsense).

Overall, women are more fearful of almost everything that was asked than men are.

Done. Now you know a few more things about the German population that you didn't ask for.

 

[civver_764]

I'm curious. Assuming that you are an ethnic German, how do you feel about the fact that you will be a minority there within your lifetime? Does this concern you? According to this, 36% of children under the age of 5 are of migrant background.

 

[Ryika]

I've been a minority in the district I lived in most of my youth, I've been a minority in one of the schools I went to... so tbh, I don't really care.
The problem Germany faces isn't ethnicity, it's bad integration of a lot of the people who came here after WW2, and the fact that we're doing the same mistake again with the refugees. Or well, a similar mistake at least, as we're not just assuming that they'll go back in the future, but its simply too many to do a proper job with integration.

Cultural tensions are high on the list of German fears for a reason.

 

[civver_764]

What do you think the solution is? I mean Angela Merkel doesn't seem to stopping the migration anytime soon, and the German birthrate doesn't seem to be rising anytime soon, so it's only going to get worse. How are you going to deal with this, especially when you become an absolute minority?

Also you say ethnicity isn't the problem...but can Germany really be considered Germany if it is no longer inhabited by Germans?

 

[warpus]

I'm curious. Assuming that you are an ethnic German, how do you feel about the fact that you will be a minority there within your lifetime? Does this concern you? According to this, 36% of children under the age of 5 are of migrant background.

Not of a migrant background, of an immigrant background. That includes all the Turks, Poles, Croatians, etc. who have integrated into German society over the last bunch of decades.

If Germans were afraid of this, it would have come up on this survey as something Germans are afraid of. So why are you talking about it?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I'm curious. Assuming that you are an ethnic German, how do you feel about the fact that you will be a minority there within your lifetime?

It should be noted that estimations of what may or may not lie within Valessa's lifetime are highly speculative.

 

[Ryika]

Also you say ethnicity isn't the problem...but can Germany really be considered Germany if it is no longer inhabited by Germans?

Well, what "is" Germany to begin with? Today's Germany is not the Germany of the past, and I don't really like the values of today's Germany to begin with, so meh, I don't really care if it changes further. The reality is, aside from the connection to Islam, I probably share a lot more values with the more integrated children of the turkish workers who came here after WW2, because their values tend to be center-right, which doesn't match my personal ideological preferences, but feels a lot closer than the German politically correct values that some people would like to push.

What do you think the solution is? I mean Angela Merkel doesn't seem to stopping the migration anytime soon, and the German birthrate doesn't seem to be rising anytime soon, so it's only going to get worse. How are you going to deal with this, especially when you become an absolute minority?

Solution to what exactly? To prevent "becoming a minority"? I don't think we need a solution for that, as again I don't really care about the ethnic makeup of Germany. What I care about are cultural values, and to keep those, we need to focus a lot on making the integration progress as good as we possibly can to ease up a lot of the damage to social cohesion that we'll inevitably run into in the not-so-distant future. In the Turks of today, we see that those who have found a place in greater society are closer to "European values" than those who live secluded in their own areas.

 

[civver_764]

It should be noted that estimations of what may or may not lie within Valessa's lifetime are highly speculative.

Well assuming there's no second coming of Hitler involving mass deportations, or the collapse of Germany as we know it, I think the demographic trend is pretty set in stone at this point, no?

Not of a migrant background, of an immigrant background. That includes all the Turks, Poles, Croatians, etc. who have integrated into German society over the last bunch of decades.

If Germans were afraid of this, it would have come up on this survey as something Germans are afraid of. So why are you talking about it?

Because I want to? It truly puzzles me why Germans don't seem to care at all, and I'm curious to understand the thought process. Why are you so concerned about me talking about it?

Well, what "is" Germany to begin with? Today's Germany is not the Germany of the past, and I don't really like the values of today's Germany to begin with, so meh, I don't really care if it changes further. The reality is, aside from the connection to Islam, I probably share a lot more values with the more integrated children of the turkish workers who came here after WW2, because their values tend to be center-right, which doesn't match my personal ideological preferences, but feels a lot closer than the German politically correct values that some people would like to push.

Hmm, ok. Would you then prefer to live in Turkey?

Solution to what exactly? To prevent "becoming a minority"? I don't think we need a solution for that, as again I don't really care about the ethnic makeup of Germany. What I care about are cultural values, and to keep those, we need to focus a lot on making the integration progress as good as we possibly can to ease up a lot of the damage to social cohesion that we'll inevitably run into in the not-so-distant future. In the Turks of today, we see that those who have found a place in greater society are closer to "European values" than those who live secluded in their own areas.

I mean a solution to the "cultural tensions", as you phrase them. How can you expect the migrants to integrate when they make such a sizeable portion of the population? There doesn't seem to be much incentive. Are you going to force them somehow? How can you do this in an ethical way?

 

[Ryika]

Hmm, ok. Would you then prefer to live in Turkey?

Under Erdogan? Hell no!

I mean a solution to the "cultural tensions", as you phrase them. How can you expect the migrants to integrate when they make such a sizeable portion of the population? There doesn't seem to be much incentive. Are you going to force them somehow? How can you do this in an ethical way?

New migrants are not a sizeable portion of the population, most migrants have been here for a while now, and their children, and the children of their children tend to integrate more and more. Which is logical, as the institutions, the daily life and really everything outside of neighborhoods where integration has failed is dominated by western culture. Western culture is generally pretty good, and when given the choice between becoming a member of German society, people will usually take it (while staying separated to an extend, but adopting more and more western values). It's only when that choice isn't really there, or when you have mosques that indoctrinate people, that you have people keep or adopt lots of backwards values.

 

[warpus]

It truly puzzles me why Germans don't seem to care at all, and I'm curious to understand the thought process. Why are you so concerned about me talking about it?

Because it's not a big deal? Why would it be? Germany took in a lot of Turkish immigrants over the years and now these people are a part of the German identity. Same with all the Poles who settled there during communist years, and everyone else. Why would you think they should be alarmed about it? Don't you live in a country made up of mostly immigrants yourself?

 

[Leonel]

I think Civver doesn't realize that the German nation state is already an artificial construct that consists of many little princely states with their own unique cultures into one single entity in 1871 after successfully humiliating France in the Franco-Prussian War.

 

[Arent11]

I'm curious. Assuming that you are an ethnic German, how do you feel about the fact that you will be a minority there within your lifetime? Does this concern you? According to this, 36% of children under the age of 5 are of migrant background.

As a fellow German , this is a typical "throwing all kinds of immigration into a pot". Immigration by English, Americans, Poles, Czech, French, Russians etc. are most of the time relatively unproblematic.

What is problematic is immgration of people who hold discriminating views or prejudice towards Europeans. Since 2015 we have literally thousands of Isis members that are running around *somewhere* in Europe/Germany - no one knows where they are.
What's even more shocking is the sympathizers with such groups. After the terror attacks in France/Toulouse there were demonstrations *for* the terrorist - & threats to wipe out the French. There is a *lot* of derogatory views towards Europeans, not just Jews or Atheists. A survey showed that 17% of french muslims sympathize with Isis - which means hundreds of thousands people that advocate ethnic cleanings.

All of *that* is only beginning to be talked about in larger newspapers. It is simply impossible anymore to ignore such derogatory views of immigrants.

 

[civver_764]

New migrants are not a sizeable portion of the population, most migrants have been here for a while now, and their children, and the children of their children tend to integrate more and more. Which is logical, as the institutions, the daily life and really everything outside of neighborhoods where integration has failed is dominated by western culture. Western culture is generally pretty good, and when given the choice between becoming a member of German society, people will usually take it (while staying separated to an extend, but adopting more and more western values). It's only when that choice isn't really there, or when you have mosques that indoctrinate people, that you have people keep or adopt lots of backwards values.

Do you think there is a point where the demographic change in the country is too swift for integration to become viable? Do you think Germany is at that point? Do you believe that Western culture can persist in Germany even if there are no more Western people there? Do you think it could be the case, for example, that the majority of people in Germany are of Turkish descent but the culture is still distinctly German?

Because it's not a big deal? Why would it be? Germany took in a lot of Turkish immigrants over the years and now these people are a part of the German identity. Same with all the Poles who settled there during communist years, and everyone else. Why would you think they should be alarmed about it? Don't you live in a country made up of mostly immigrants yourself?

Ah, but if it's truly not a big deal then it's surely not a big deal for me to talk about it. So it seems you actually do think it is a big deal.

 

[warpus]

This thread is for things Germans are afraid of, not things you think Germans should be afraid of. Right? If I thought it was a big deal I wouldn't be saying "This isn't a big deal"

 

[Ryika]

Do you think there is a point where the demographic change in the country is too swift for integration to become viable?

Depends on what exactly you mean by that. For "proper" integration? Yeah, and I think we're well past that threshold. This will lead to problems in the future, but over time, it will probably be fine. Assuming the flow of new refugees slows down significantly of course. For integration in general? Sure, when you don't have enough people to even offer basic assistance.

Do you think Germany is at that point?

I guess I answered that one in the part above.

Do you believe that Western culture can persist in Germany even if there are no more Western people there?

Define "Western people". The children of the children of the Turks who came here after WW2 do see themselves as "Westerners" to a large extend. They do generally hold more regressive views than the average German, but that's hardly surprising, given that they come from what is basically a "conservative household". I think Western Values can very well persist, even unter the unrealistic hypothetical that all "original" Westerners in Germany suddenly vanished.

Do you think it could be the case, for example, that the majority of people in Germany are of Turkish descent but the culture is still distinctly German?

No, I would think that it would likely be a mix of Turkish and German culture.

 

[civver_764]

Define "Western people". The children of the children of the Turks who came here after WW2 do see themselves as "Westerners" to a large extend. They do generally hold more regressive views than the average German, but that's hardly surprising, given that they come from what is basically a "conservative household". I think Western Values can very well persist, even unter the unrealistic hypothetical that all "original" Westerners in Germany suddenly vanished.

By Western people I mean people of European descent. Specifically for this case I mean people of German descent.

You say that it is unrealistic, but that is where the trend is heading, no? If we just look specifically at Germans vs. Turks, the Turks have a significantly higher birth rate. So even in the absence of any more migration this will be the eventual effect.

No, I would think that it would likely be a mix of Turkish and German culture.

Ok, and what do you say to those Germans who wish for the German culture to remain distinctly German? Is that an unacceptable point of view to hold? And what of Turkish people in Turkey who wish for the culture there to remain distinctly Turkish?

 

[Ryika]

By Western people I mean people of European descent. Specifically for this case I mean people of German descent.

You say that it is unrealistic, but that is where the trend is heading, no? If we just look specifically at Germans vs. Turks, the Turks have a significantly higher birth rate. So even in the absence of any more migration this will be the eventual effect.

No, as long as Germans continue to reproduce in some capacity, Germans will not go extinct. Of course, it is mostly newly arrived people who reproduce a lot more, as they start being westernized, their birth rates tend to normalize.

Ok, and what do you say to those Germans who wish for the German culture to remain distinctly German? Is that an unacceptable point of view to hold?

No, it's perfectly acceptable, just not very realistic. Most people in Germany don't really care about mixing of cultures, or even appreciate it, so I guess they'll have to find a place where they uphold that "clean" German Culture. I guess you could make the argument that in the more rural areas of East Germany that's what happening, but those people are statistically rather bigoted in their own way, and not exactly prime examples of upstanding embers of the highly cultural german society.

And what of Turkish people in Turkey who wish for the culture there to remain distinctly Turkish?

Well, they do have Turkey, right?

 

[REDY]

So why so many of German Turks support Erdogan?

 

[civver_764]

No, it's perfectly acceptable, just not very realistic. Most people in Germany don't really care about mixing of cultures, or even appreciate it, so I guess they'll have to find a place where they uphold that "clean" German Culture. I guess you could make the argument that in the more rural areas of East Germany that's what happening, but those people are statistically rather bigoted in their own way, and not exactly prime examples of upstanding embers of the highly cultural german society.

Yes I actually lived for some time in a small village in Brandenburg, and the people there had an extreme loathing of Turkish people. At the time I thought they were crazy Nazis, but now I kind of understand where they are coming from.

Well, they do have Turkey, right?

Exactly - they have Turkey, but Germans increasingly do not have Germany. This is a one way multiculturalism

 

[Ryika]

So why so many of German Turks support Erdogan?

Well, German Turks are generally more on the conservative side, and Erdogan is sort of seen as a martyr in a way. Particularly with how he was denied entry when he tried to speak in Germany, a lot of Turks seem to have taken a stance of him being treated unfairly, as many also feel treated in Germany.

Yes I actually lived for some time in a small village in Brandenburg, and the people there had an extreme loathing of Turkish people. At the time I thought they were crazy Nazis, but now I kind of understand where they are coming from.

They're not Nazis, but they tend to look at the worst individuals, and think that all of them are like that.

Exactly - they have Turkey, but Germans increasingly do not have Germany. This is a one way multiculturalism

Sure, with full consent of the majority of the German population.