And the biggest fear of ze Germans in 2017 is...

[warpus]

Ok, and what do you say to those Germans who wish for the German culture to remain distinctly German? Is that an unacceptable point of view to hold? And what of Turkish people in Turkey who wish for the culture there to remain distinctly Turkish?

Culture evolves, no individual has power over it. Besides, the culture in Germany is distinctly German even if it now has Turkish, Polish, and other influences. You can ask any German what they think of currywurst for instance, or doner kebabs. You can't just keep a culture static, it will keep changing whether you like it or not. And yes, it is still German, whether they have non-German immigrants living there or not.

Why are we even talking about this? We should be talking about things Germans are afraid of..

 

[Bootstoots]

Not of a migrant background, of an immigrant background. That includes all the Turks, Poles, Croatians, etc. who have integrated into German society over the last bunch of decades.

If Germans were afraid of this, it would have come up on this survey as something Germans are afraid of. So why are you talking about it?

My impression is that Germany sucked terribly at integrating most of the Turkish people who showed up, largely because both sides thought it was temporary until like 20 years after it was clear that the Turkish Germans were there to stay. Luckily Turks don't seem to be as susceptible to Salafism as other Muslim groups, but even in the third generation they are way behind the German averages at most socioeconomic measures and many (even into the third generation) are still not even citizens of Germany. I don't think this is necessarily a problem with integrating Muslims specifically: I doubt Muslim Bosniaks are doing worse than Bosnian Serbs or something. But it's still deeply worrying.

Like, it would be one thing if Germany were known to be good at integrating the previous group of migrants that already appeared starting in the 1960s into German society, but they appear to be the opposite of that. So accepting very large numbers of another migrant group just seems like a terrible idea. Now that this ship has sailed, I do at least hope that people are learning from the mistakes of the past, because a large fraction aren't going back to Syria/Iraq/other countries and need to be integrated as quickly as possible.

 

[Synobun]

I'm curious. Assuming that you are an ethnic German, how do you feel about the fact that you will be a minority there within your lifetime? Does this concern you? According to this, 36% of children under the age of 5 are of migrant background.

Moderator Action: You have been asked several times in the past to cut out the white supremacy talk, and have indeed been infracted in the past for throwing out zingers like "multiculturalism is only one-way". That is not encouragement to hijack a thread in the very first reply. Talk about the content specifically in the OP or abstain.

 

[warpus]

My impression is that Germany sucked terribly at integrating most of the Turkish people who showed up, largely because both sides thought it was temporary until like 20 years after it was clear that the Turkish Germans were there to stay. Luckily Turks don't seem to be as susceptible to Salafism as other Muslim groups, but even in the third generation they are way behind the German averages at most socioeconomic measures and many (even into the third generation) are still not even citizens of Germany. I don't think this is necessarily a problem with integrating Muslims specifically: I doubt Muslim Bosniaks are doing worse than Bosnian Serbs or something. But it's still deeply worrying.

Like, it would be one thing if Germany were known to be good at integrating the previous group of migrants that already appeared starting in the 1960s into German society, but they appear to be the opposite of that. So accepting very large numbers of another migrant group just seems like a terrible idea. Now that this ship has sailed, I do at least hope that people are learning from the mistakes of the past, because a large fraction aren't going back to Syria/Iraq/other countries and need to be integrated as quickly as possible.

Sounds like there are some parallels there with America and Mexican immigrants. Officials turned a blind eye while millions came over, illegally or not, because it was a source of cheap labour. No thought was given to other consequences. But now that there's pressure from voters, officials are talking about a crackdown. (ed: I should note that the similarities end rather abruptly once you start looking at the details. For instance, the last sentence doesn't really apply)

Are Germans afraid of this, though? It seems to me like they have other issues at the top of their worry list.

 

[metatron]

What do you think the solution is? I mean Angela Merkel doesn't seem to stopping the migration anytime soon, and the German birthrate doesn't seem to be rising anytime soon, so it's only going to get worse. How are you going to deal with this, especially when you become an absolute minority?

Also you say ethnicity isn't the problem...but can Germany really be considered Germany if it is no longer inhabited by Germans?

You are misusing the term "German" here, and you are in the process slightly insulting my heritage and my identity.
To answer your question: Yes, i would be extremely fine with a Germany in 2150 being populated virtually exclusively by Germans, who speak German and do German things and are of a phenotype that makes silly Anglospherians consider them "not German".
Actually i would consider it proof of concept.

This misunderstanding is not unique to you, mind you. Anglospherians of all political persuasions are victims of it.
The elemental problem being that the lot of you don't understand what is German in the first place.

Do you think there is a point where the demographic change in the country is too swift for integration to become viable?

Here it is worthy to point out that Anglospherians and Germans have a very different standard for what they deem "integration".

If you show Germans - of virtually any political stripe - something like the Bay Area they will universally condemn that as a catastrophy.
We don't plan to live like that.
And so far we are moderately successful at not being France - or worse: the US.

Like, it would be one thing if Germany were known to be good at integrating the previous group of migrants that already appeared starting in the 1960s into German society, but they appear to be the opposite of that. So accepting very large numbers of another migrant group just seems like a terrible idea.

See above.
Mistakes of the past notwithstanding, we do not appreciate any superiority of your approach or effort. So much so that:
We wouldn't trade places with you.
Not if you paid us money.

Do you think Germany is at that point? Do you believe that Western culture can persist in Germany even if there are no more Western people there?

"Western"?
We are Central Europeans. Not the same thing.

You say that it is unrealistic, but that is where the trend is heading, no? If we just look specifically at Germans vs. Turks, the Turks have a significantly higher birth rate. So even in the absence of any more migration this will be the eventual effect.

Nope, they don't.
We hoped they would, but sadly by the 2nd generation they do like the rest of us, if you correct for economic class.
Annoying side effect of them being German.

So why so many of German Turks support Erdogan?

Most of them originally were from a low working class or rural background. That's Erdogan's base. The core of the opposition is white collar, you know, accountants, all manner of clerks, teachers etc.
Incidentally, for the same reason the recent Syrian arrivals - being largely of the latter background - are not all that fond of (working class Turkish dominated) German Islam.
They'll probably rearrange the furniture or set up their own stuff alltogether.

Yes I actually lived for some time in a small village in Brandenburg, and the people there had an extreme loathing of Turkish people.

People in rural Brandenburg and in the worse parts of Berlin (that's what the former were likely talking about), are both outliers to me and hardly representative of the lived reality in large parts of the country.

 

[REDY]

Most of them originally were from a low working class or rural background. That's Erdogan's base. The core of the opposition is white collar, you know, accountants, all manner of clerks, teachers etc.
Incidentally, for the same reason the recent Syrian arrivals - being largely of the latter background - are not all that fond of (working class Turkish dominated) German Islam.
They'll probably rearrange the furniture or set up their own stuff alltogether.

On the other hand Turkish Germans are not rural any more. They live in multicultural cities, sometimes for decades and had to prove some dedication to get and stay there.

 

[metatron]

On the other hand Turkish Germans are not rural any more. They live in multicultural cities, sometimes for decades and had to prove some dedication to get and stay there.

Yeah, i'm not sure where you see the conflict.
The working class neighborhoods of German cities are... just that.
Not some sort of hipstertopia.

They don't want a dictatorship. They don't agree with everything the guy says or does.
They see this largely as a slightly uncooth leader roughing up some hysterical students and high-nosed attorneys, journalists and artists.
How hard is it to sell that to working class conservative minded people, like, anywhere?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Provided Germany keeps growing as the powerhouse of the EU I dont think that will be a problem
Problem will be if germany stopped being the main powerhouse of the EU and it vast wealth is exhausted. Thats normally when tensions and problems bubble up

Then it will probably be Poland, Russia and Frances problem
Kuwra !

 

[Damus Maximus]

You are misusing the term "German" here, and you are in the process slightly insulting my heritage and my identity.
To answer your question: Yes, i would be extremely fine with a Germany in 2150 being populated virtually exclusively by Germans, who speak German and do German things and are of a phenotype that makes silly Anglospherians consider them "not German".
Actually i would consider it proof of concept.

This misunderstanding is not unique to you, mind you. Anglospherians of all political persuasions are victims of it.
The elemental problem being that the lot of you don't understand what is German in the first place.

.

Is a "German" not simply an individual born in Germany? What are you referring to when you say "German things"?
Have to say, I found this thread an interesting and informative read, and if the views expressed here constitute an accurate representation of the opinions of the German population as a whole, I'm quite surprised at the contrast in their opinions relating to matters such as large numbers of immigrants in comparison to those held by us Brexiteers.
that's not to suggest either one is necessarily right or wrong.
One of the key factors in why immigration is viewed in a negative light over here at present (in my opinion) is not the number of immigrants, nor their ethnicity, its the amount of variety of ethnities, cultures etc.
hen you've got a classroom of 30 pupils at school, and out of those 30 pupils, they speak 5 different languages, you've got a problem.
How do you solve issues similar to this in Germany?

See above.
Mistakes of the past notwithstanding, we do not appreciate any superiority of your approach or effort. So much so that:
We wouldn't trade places with you.
Not if you paid us money.

"Western"?
We are Central Europeans. Not the same thing.

What are your definitions of "western" an "central" Europeans?

 

[Bootstoots]

Here it is worthy to point out that Anglospherians and Germans have a very different standard for what they deem "integration".

If you show Germans - of virtually any political stripe - something like the Bay Area they will universally condemn that as a catastrophy.
We don't plan to live like that.
And so far we are moderately successful at not being France - or worse: the US.

See above.
Mistakes of the past notwithstanding, we do not appreciate any superiority of your approach or effort. So much so that:
We wouldn't trade places with you.
Not if you paid us money.

So what about the Bay Area do you find catastrophic? Besides the Bay Area-specific issue of high housing prices and the US-specific issues of absurd healthcare and education prices. Is it something along the lines of the debate between multiculturalism vs. a "melting pot" or are you talking about something else entirely?

 

[cardgame]

As a fellow German , this is a typical "throwing all kinds of immigration into a pot". Immigration by English, Americans, Poles, Czech, French, Russians etc. are most of the time relatively unproblematic.

What is problematic is immgration of people who hold discriminating views or prejudice towards Europeans. Since 2015 we have literally thousands of Isis members that are running around *somewhere* in Europe/Germany - no one knows where they are.
What's even more shocking is the sympathizers with such groups. After the terror attacks in France/Toulouse there were demonstrations *for* the terrorist - & threats to wipe out the French. There is a *lot* of derogatory views towards Europeans, not just Jews or Atheists. A survey showed that 17% of french muslims sympathize with Isis - which means hundreds of thousands people that advocate ethnic cleanings.

All of *that* is only beginning to be talked about in larger newspapers. It is simply impossible anymore to ignore such derogatory views of immigrants.

You mean like Catholics and Protestants in the USA?

 

[Arent11]

You mean like Catholics and Protestants in the USA?

I don't think that you can compare catholics & protestants to Isis? I am not aware of catholics in the USA wiping out ethnic groups? Or protestants driving cars into pedestrians?

 

[metatron]

.

Is a "German" not simply an individual born in Germany? What are you referring to when you say "German things"?

Well, like pornography: You know it when you see it.
I'm sure you appreciate that these things are not absolute. Any one person may not have some habit, view, sentiment, whatever.
Real nations are not like cliches. They don't come with a "hat".
But usually some balance of affects, habits, views in the aggregate is pretty predictive.

Come to think of it, we sort of come with a "hat". Cue the Ahmed kid in Where to Invade Next pushing the chips in the middle like that.
But that's not even all that required.
I could come up with a rather long list of rather buzzfeedian quality: If you find more than 80 of these 100 things not absurd it's extremely likely you're German (or we'll mail you your papers and you should take them). But i trust that would bore you.

One of the key factors in why immigration is viewed in a negative light over here at present (in my opinion) is not the number of immigrants, nor their ethnicity, its the amount of variety of ethnities, cultures etc.
hen you've got a classroom of 30 pupils at school, and out of those 30 pupils, they speak 5 different languages, you've got a problem.
How do you solve issues similar to this in Germany?

How does that make any difference? The approach is the same: You teach people your language (or you fail because bureaucracy) and move on.
If anything the latter scenario strikes me as easier.

What are your definitions of "western" an "central" Europeans?

Well, many of the things i said on the "German" thing apply.
The question ultimately is what definition do you find meaningful?
I mean one could crudely define Central Europe as anything vaguely European rye belt but not too Russian. And with some spillage that works. But it's not very profound.
One could, discounting a Grand Duchy and a Principality with the combined population of Leicester note that it's pretty damn unusual to come up with 13 odd European countries that are a) functioning democracies and b) have zero constitutional monarchies among them.
That's more profound, but you - i am sure - could still explain it with history in about three sentences.
So we could go into Hofstede dimensions. And, without having looked that up, i would guess with some confidency that, outliers not withstanding, central European countries would rank lower on power distance, higher on masculinity and lower on indulgence.
We could debate that for a while.
And on it goes. At some point this sort of stuff compounds to some degree of "identity".

So what about the Bay Area do you find catastrophic? Besides the Bay Area-specific issue of high housing prices and the US-specific issues of absurd healthcare and education prices. Is it something along the lines of the debate between multiculturalism vs. a "melting pot" or are you talking about something else entirely?

Yeah, that.
Integration is a lot easier if you have people just self-segregate and skip the actual integration part.
(I'm passing on a perfectly good opportunity to make fun of VW again here...)

found that 71% of the 2.380 people who were questioned for the study are afraid of terrorism.

Btw: Since i'm among the other 29% wondering "who are these people" as well as "grandma overrepresented much", let me inquire:
How does the actual study work?
Like did people just get a list of items and had to mark them yes/no?
Or do people have to come up with a set of concerns on their own, possibly even with a limitation (like, give us 5 items)?
Cause i'd guess that would yield different results.

 

[Yeekim]

A survey showed that 17% of french muslims sympathize with Isis.

That sounds like a lot. Source?

 

[Ryika]

Btw: Since i'm among the other 29% wondering "who are these people" as well as "grandma overrepresented much", let me inquire:
How does the actual study work?
Like did people just get a list of items and had to mark them yes/no?
Or do people have to come up with a set of concerns on their own, possibly even with a limitation (like, give us 5 items)?
Cause i'd guess that would yield different results.

In the methodology-section, they explain that participants were asked to answer a number of questions by an interviewer, on a scale from 1 to 7 how much they fear a particular thing.

The exact German intro that was given to the participants:
"Es gibt viele Risiken und Gefahren im Leben. Einige davon haben wir zusammengestellt. Uns interessiert nun, inwieweit Sie sich davon bedroht fühlen. Bitte geben Sie uns – rein aus dem Gefühl – eine Bewertung, die aussagt, für wie bedrohlich Sie dieses Ereignis halten. Eine „1“ drückt aus, dass Sie keine Angst davor haben. Mit einer „7“ geben Sie zum Ausdruck, dass Sie sehr große Angst davor haben. Denken Sie aber bitte auch an die Zwischenstufen von „2“ bis „6“"

6-9 were considered "big fears" and counted towards the percentages.

 

[Hrothbern]

What are your definitions of "western" an "central" Europeans?

So we could go into Hofstede dimensions. And, without having looked that up, i would guess with some confidency that, outliers not withstanding, central European countries would rank lower on power distance, higher on masculinity and lower on indulgence

Germany as central European makes sense for me as well. And yes to your Hofstede top of your head guesses.
The odd thing is, regarding the question of Damus, is that there is almost no western Europe left except UK and Ireland.
The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland have such extreme low masculinity values on the Hofstede cultural dimensions, that they are imo a distinct group.
France being either separate or for my feel more south european, but anyway so much different from UK, that wrapping France up in western european makes no sense.

To Germany Hofstede I would note that Germany is unique in Europe for the very high value of long term orientation. Which fits my job experiences (for 20 years) in Germany.
Only Russia having the same value, and both much more comparable with Asian values like China, Japan, Korea.
The other thing in which Germany is imo a clear outlier compared to almost all countries in the world is a high degree of industrial/engineering quality thinking, needing a high degree of discipline and ordening. In Europe only Austria, Slovenia, Sweden come close. Worldwide only Japan having that perfection-discipline-quality thinking and SK still a long way to go but growing.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Did you guys know that, according to my highly questionable sources, actual Germans will be outbred by barbaric Saxon invaders in our lifetime? How can we uphold those dear German values we cherish so much when none of our kin will live to see tomorrow? 'They' are not compatible with our superior western way of life, they speak a different dialect and wear feminine uniforms with shiny boots. Can we even call the current Germany, our Mutterland, German anymore, when it's ethnic makeup is corrupted by inferior Saxon DNA? Those heathens are protestant and probably have unprotected intercourse multiple times a day. Germany is falling to degeneracy, and you are watching as it burns.

 

[Hrothbern]

Did you guys know that, according to my highly questionable sources, actual Germans will be outbred by barbaric Saxon invaders in our lifetime? How can we uphold those dear German values we cherish so much when none of our kin will live to see tomorrow? 'They' are not compatible with our superior western way of life, they speak a different dialect and wear feminine uniforms with shiny boots. Can we even call the current Germany, our Mutterland, German anymore, when it's ethnic makeup is corrupted by inferior Saxon DNA? Those heathens are protestant and probably have unprotected intercourse multiple times a day. Germany is falling to degeneracy, and you are watching as it burns.

They also do not have proper brooms and do not sweep their street. Asocial barbarians.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

My impression is that Germany sucked terribly at integrating most of the Turkish people who showed up, largely because both sides thought it was temporary until like 20 years after it was clear that the Turkish Germans were there to stay. Luckily Turks don't seem to be as susceptible to Salafism as other Muslim groups, but even in the third generation they are way behind the German averages at most socioeconomic measures and many (even into the third generation) are still not even citizens of Germany. I don't think this is necessarily a problem with integrating Muslims specifically: I doubt Muslim Bosniaks are doing worse than Bosnian Serbs or something. But it's still deeply worrying.

Like, it would be one thing if Germany were known to be good at integrating the previous group of migrants that already appeared starting in the 1960s into German society, but they appear to be the opposite of that. So accepting very large numbers of another migrant group just seems like a terrible idea. Now that this ship has sailed, I do at least hope that people are learning from the mistakes of the past, because a large fraction aren't going back to Syria/Iraq/other countries and need to be integrated as quickly as possible.

Friendly reminder that the majority (please correct me if I am wrong, this is somewhat anecdotal evidence) of the Turks that came starting in the '60s were dirt-poor farmers from Anatolia, many were illiterate, did not receive basic education or any professional training and obviously differ quite a lot from your average turk, who was likely more secular and held different cultural views. Those people, as a group, were incredibly hard to integrate.

I am not saying that Germany didn't screw up, because they evidently did, what I am saying is that judging the German integration system based on the very few where it did not do well (as opposed to Poles, Russians, Belarussians, Heimatvertriebene, etc.) is unfair.

Also, integration in Germany has undergone many phases, the process now is absolutely nothing like it was 50, 40, or even 20 years ago. I mean, anything else would be ridiculous. Even from 2015 to 2017 so many things have changed. The average time for a refugee to be granted his permanent stay allowance was halved, now it is less than a third of what it initially was. Mandatory language courses and efforts by the Arbeitsamt mean that a good chunk of refugees that are arriving today can have a flat, a job and socialize in less than a few months. The picture you're painting is a little too grim, in my opinion, though your stats on Turkish immigrant workers seem correct to me. We should be careful not to deduce too much from that.

 

[AdrienIer]

That sounds like a lot. Source?

I debunked this stat months ago when another one of our alt-right forum members decided to bring it up. It's a survey from 2014 (IIRC), before ISIS started randomly killing people all over Europe. There are no recent studies on this, but I don't doubt that today's number is much closer to zero.