Animal Behaviour

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It's supposed to have a target unit and for the player, there's never really cause for that as you can just group the units together.

Except when you have the option "Missionaries and Executives start automated" on. It is a BtS Option.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Except when you have the option "Missionaries and Executives start automated" on. It is a BtS Option.

Sure but the shadow option for units was never supposed to make them go and find such automated missionaries and executives and go escort them.

 

[Toffer90]

I just noticed that the changes I made to animal teams based on our discussion resulted in 39 units on both the predator and beast team.
Interesting coincidence. ^^

 

[Thunderbrd]

I just noticed that the changes I made to animal teams based on our discussion resulted in 39 units on both the predator and beast team.
Interesting coincidence. ^^

Good balance then!


BTW, did you put the Kookabura back on the Predator team? My Australian wife tells me they are basically large songbirds but she also did say they eat some snakes and lizards so is that why such a low powered creature is, or at least was, on the Alpha list?

 

[Toffer90]

Still on the Predatory team
Kookaburra - ♫ - δ → AMPHIBIAN, INSECT & SNAKE
I initially put it there based on wikipedia:
"Kookaburras are almost exclusively carnivorous, eating mice, snakes, insects, small reptiles, and the young of other birds; they have also been known to take goldfish from garden ponds. In zoos they are usually fed food for birds of prey.
The most social birds will accept handouts and will take meat from barbecues."

 

[Thunderbrd]

Still on the Predatory team
Kookaburra - ♫ - δ → AMPHIBIAN, INSECT & SNAKE
I initially put it there based on wikipedia:
"Kookaburras are almost exclusively carnivorous, eating mice, snakes, insects, small reptiles, and the young of other birds; they have also been known to take goldfish from garden ponds. In zoos they are usually fed food for birds of prey.
The most social birds will accept handouts and will take meat from barbecues."

Huh. Okie dokie. I suppose they wouldn't go on the beasts team either because most of their prey is already there.

 

[Toffer90]

@TB:
Looking over some of you group spawn changes, I notice some things I want to disagree on or discuss:
Premise:
I count Solo group size as 1-3 adults or battle-effective individuals.
Party → 4-11
Squad → 12-35
Company → 36-107
Battalion → 108-323
Forces → 324-971
etc. - I know you use different numbers.

1. Jaguar ▬ are extremely solitary animals, they don't hunt together and they don't live in groups Male leave female after mating and does not care for the offspring. Extremely territorial and if two are encountered while mating the one not belonging to the territory would probably buzz of home.
2. Arctic fox ▬ Also a very solitary animal, at most you might stumble upon two parents caring for their offspring. Male hunt, female stay with offspring; this goes on for 3-5 months then they all separate to live a solitary life until the next mating.
3. Asian Black Bear (Moon Bear) ▬ Much the same as arctic fox although they do stay with their offspring for a longer period (24–36 months).
4. Brown Bear ▬ Much the same as jaguars, but they are less territorial and several adults may be observed at once roaming freely at a good distance to each other, but I highly doubt one would come to the others help when attacked or when attacking something else; they are far more likely to scatter or don't care in such a situation.
5. Bengal Tiger ▬ These may on occasion congregate and act as a group of 3-6 if food is plentiful or on a temporary transitory basis. I feel it's wrong to spawn them in squads.
6. American Black Bear ▬ Much the same as Bengal Tiger, although they may congregate more often and in a bit larger numbers. I don't disagree too much with letting them spawn in squads, just a bit.
7. Wild Boar ▬ Wouldn't a company be an extraordinary large hog sounder? As far as I understand the group sizes, a squad would be an unusually large hog sounder.
8. Black Caiman ▬ Even though these may lie in the same river in somewhat close proximity to each other I think it would be stretching it to see a squad acting as a group.
9. Camel ▬ Feel battalion stretch it a bit too much, though natural disasters may cause them to migrate in the hundreds as a group.
10. Capuchin Monkey ▬ Much the same as Camel. Company in rare occasions but battalion stretches it a bit.
11. Capybara ▬ No quarrel here, it's reasonable.
12. Caribou ▬ No quarrel here, it's reasonable. Perhaps we should even spawn larger groups of these? "During the spring migration smaller herds will group together to form larger herds of 50,000 to 500,000 animals"

 

[Thunderbrd]

The first thing we'd need to get on top of is the amounts represented by categories:
Solo (1)
Party (2-6)
Squad (7-20)
Company (21-100)
Battalion (101-600)
Forces (601-2500)
Clan (2600-10000)
Horde (10001-100000)
Multitudes (100k - 1 million)

Jaguar ▬ are extremely solitary animals, they don't hunt together and they don't live in groups Male leave female after mating and does not care for the offspring. Extremely territorial and if two are encountered while mating the one not belonging to the territory would probably buzz of home.

There are rare moments when you find multiples. And this applies to many animal types that operate solo most of the time. In most cases, these odd encounters are tough to explain but they do happen on some occasions and thus the potential should exist. This comment pretty much answers to most of the points you're indicating.

Brown Bear ▬ Much the same as jaguars, but they are less territorial and several adults may be observed at once roaming freely at a good distance to each other, but I highly doubt one would come to the others help when attacked or when attacking something else; they are far more likely to scatter or don't care in such a situation.

Again, the numbers represent unusual cases but if you were to stumble onto a stream where bear are fishing or an area thick with them it could lead to having to contend with more than one quite quickly. Or a den when they are coming out of hibernation etc...

Wild Boar ▬ Wouldn't a company be an extraordinary large hog sounder? As far as I understand the group sizes, a squad would be an unusually large hog sounder.

The info I was getting was often not all that detailed so perhaps you're right. (and this would go for much of these arguments)

Black Caiman ▬ Even though these may lie in the same river in somewhat close proximity to each other I think it would be stretching it to see a squad acting as a group.

Don't these have a tendency, as most crocs do, to sometimes go after larger targets in a group so as to compete for what bites of the prey they can grab? They can congregate and become quite a danger as a crowd. Even if not acting as a group in unison, the numbers present can present a problem for an explorer who wanders in and finds himself surrounded or has to cross a wet region knowing there's quite a few there.

Camel ▬ Feel battalion stretch it a bit too much, though natural disasters may cause them to migrate in the hundreds as a group.

Which is why a small chance for such a large herd should exist right? We can add more to the likelihood of the other results to diminish the likelihood of the larger though.

Caribou ▬ No quarrel here, it's reasonable. Perhaps we should even spawn larger groups of these? "During the spring migration smaller herds will group together to form larger herds of 50,000 to 500,000 animals"

I was wondering that myself since I know they can reach truly amazing herd sizes.

Another thing I should explain: My goal was less to adjust the group sizes and chances of encounter so much as to get the names of clusters represented. I won't argue if you counteradjust some of them based on your knowledge of the creatures.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sir David Attenborough described a meeting he had with a battalion of wild pigs in South America in the 1950-60s. There was over 200 in the herd but many were young. Everything and everyone in its path headed up into the trees. A jaguar attacked one of the trailing pigs after the herd had gone but had not planed its escape well and was eaten by the pigs.

edit herd size is determined by food available a herd of pigs in spawning in jungle would be bigger than one spawning in forest which in turn would be bigger than one in scrub.

 

[Toffer90]

The first thing we'd need to get on top of is the amounts represented by categories:
Solo (1)
Party (2-6)
Squad (7-20)
Company (21-100)
Battalion (101-600)
Forces (601-2500)
Clan (2600-10000)
Horde (10001-100000)
Multitudes (100k - 1 million)

Fair enough; this shouldn't affect my previous arguments much.

There are rare moments when you find multiples. And this applies to many animal types that operate solo most of the time. In most cases, these odd encounters are tough to explain but they do happen on some occasions and thus the potential should exist. This comment pretty much answers to most of the points you're indicating.

Sure, no matter how rare, it can still happen though, it feels more right to represent this as multiple solo jaguars in one tile than by bigger group sizes.
I'm half okay with it if Solo chance is 99 and party chance is 1. ^^

Again, the numbers represent unusual cases but if you were to stumble onto a stream where bear are fishing or an area thick with them it could lead to having to contend with more than one quite quickly. Or a den when they are coming out of hibernation etc...

Adults don't hibernate together... Usually. I still think it's very strange for a group of 7-20 brown bears to move around as a group attacking and defending together.

Don't these have a tendency, as most crocs do, to sometimes go after larger targets in a group so as to compete for what bites of the prey they can grab? They can congregate and become quite a danger as a crowd. Even if not acting as a group in unison, the numbers present can present a problem for an explorer who wanders in and finds himself surrounded or has to cross a wet region knowing there's quite a few there.

They might, hard to find info about them, my impression is that they have a greater spacing than other crocodilians; this might be more due to their habitat/environment rather than their behavioral characteristics. Some crocodiles are gregarious but these are not.
I think party should be their maximum.

Which is why a small chance for such a large herd should exist right? We can add more to the likelihood of the other results to diminish the likelihood of the larger though.

These animals typically form herds of 20 individuals, they live in environments not suited for large populations; so I feel the higher end of "Company" already represent the special case.

Another thing I should explain: My goal was less to adjust the group sizes and chances of encounter so much as to get the names of clusters represented. I won't argue if you counteradjust some of them based on your knowledge of the creatures.

I understood that right away. ^^
I might revert, or just adjust the chances, for some of it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still think it's very strange for a group of 7-20 brown bears to move around as a group attacking and defending together.

Rare in the lower 40 yes. You should see a hillside from a distance in Alaska. Tons congregate where berry bushes are and fishing streams and so on.
Again, for animals, it's not always that they act intentionally in unison, but that they may have advantage in their local numbers nevertheless, where it becomes impossible to tangle with one without also getting the attention of others. And this is a big part of why those rare situations where multiple cats can take place as well. They can also be grouped because they are following similar food sources.

These animals typically form herds of 20 individuals, they live in environments not suited for large populations; so I feel the higher end of "Company" already represent the special case.

Regarding camels, and many other species, I was thinking that we may underestimate the larger grouping chances as we are looking at this from a more modern perspective. Earth is not as healthy as once it was. As far as camels go, I was also trying to fit in another group name I had been given in my research so that was a part of why I pushed it to battalion level potential.

Sir David Attenborough described a meeting he had with a battalion of wild pigs in South America in the 1950-60s. There was over 200 in the herd but many were young. Everything and everyone in its path headed up into the trees. A jaguar attacked one of the trailing pigs after the herd had gone but had not planed its escape well and was eaten by the pigs.

edit herd size is determined by food available a herd of pigs in spawning in jungle would be bigger than one spawning in forest which in turn would be bigger than one in scrub.

Love the info! I can only imagine what it must have been like to try to survive that many pigs coming through! lol Sometimes the hunter becomes the hunted eh?

As for the food available, completely agree. I have some plans for deepening things that can eventually take that sort of thing into consideration but the system currently doesn't have any way to adjust for that at the moment. What would eventually happen is that groups can grow and shrink and as they grow demand more food to maintain their size. Will take some further consideration as to how to make it work for animals properly.

 

[Toffer90]

Rare in the lower 40 yes. You should see a hillside from a distance in Alaska. Tons congregate where berry bushes are and fishing streams and so on.
Again, for animals, it's not always that they act intentionally in unison, but that they may have advantage in their local numbers nevertheless, where it becomes impossible to tangle with one without also getting the attention of others. And this is a big part of why those rare situations where multiple cats can take place as well. They can also be grouped because they are following similar food sources.

You do have a point; but I'll make it very rare for bears to spawn as squads.
I still feel it would make more sense for bears to be grouped maximum in party; aren't you planning to work towards making it possible for one unit to strengthen another unit when on the same tile one way or another. Like each group of bears on a tile would give 10% combat modifiers to any other bears in the same tile.

Regarding camels, and many other species, I was thinking that we may underestimate the larger grouping chances as we are looking at this from a more modern perspective. Earth is not as healthy as once it was.

This is something I considered when initially giving animals group size spawns; many of the largest group sizes I assigned was in light of the "what if every condition was ideal" situation. I must admit that I probably didn't overestimate much, but I often went one group size larger than what I found reason to during my research on the animals.

What would eventually happen is that groups can grow and shrink and as they grow demand more food to maintain their size. Will take some further consideration as to how to make it work for animals properly.

An interesting system that could make it unnecessary to spawn unusually large groups as they might form dynamically on their own.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still feel it would make more sense for bears to be grouped maximum in party; aren't you planning to work towards making it possible for one unit to strengthen another unit when on the same tile one way or another. Like each group of bears on a tile would give 10% combat modifiers to any other bears in the same tile.

Yeah but I'm not sure animals would give such synergistic bonuses. They may not get that... not sure. Just keep in mind how curious bears are. Even in a vague grouping that is more based on a local food source than teamwork, they would converge on the source of a struggle and each would look to take advantage of that struggle personally if they could. I'm sure more than one hunter has found himself surrounded in a berry patch. And sometimes they are found in rather large groups when hibernating. Depends on the size of the refuge but over time generations may come to all use the same place and it can become quite a den.

I won't claim large groupings are common at all. Highly UNcommon. Just... possible. And that's what I was reaching for ... the full spectrum of possibility. By all means, make these larger groupings much less likely if you feel it is.

An interesting system that could make it unnecessary to spawn unusually large groups as they might form dynamically on their own.

Yeah, that would be ideal. And to have thresholds at which they would gain random chances to split. It's something I want to develop as a precursor to Nomadic Starts where the Nomadic Units would operate in similar ways themselves.

I also feel I need to do something about combat rules with larger groups. A lion doesn't take down the whole herd... just one specimen among them. Then calls it good and feasts. A human hunter wouldn't be all that different. I'm trying to consider how to make for a splitting rule.




Oh... one more thing... this is a HUGE project. I was trying to toss in some help on that but by all means feel free to continue chipping away at it! Currently I'm more concerned with getting the initial term definitions in place than I am about perfecting things. It's much nicer to play with those aides to understanding the group volumes, even if they are fun in the manner in which they are a bit vague. It challenges the player to remember the grouping terms by species itself and that's amusing imo.

 

[Toffer90]

I believe we've reached an understanding on the matter.

And btw. good job on adding all those group names to almost half 1/5 of the animals in the game. I myself only bothered with adding group names for 1-3 animals before I got bored with it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wasn't near half. I'm only midway through the C's alphabetically.

 

[Toffer90]

Wasn't near half. I'm only midway through the C's alphabetically.

About 36 animals is still a lot; thats 18.5% of them..

 

[Thunderbrd]

True... it did take a while. But it goes to show how much more work is there to do and it would be nice if we could get it completed by release (hopefully before Christmas.) If we're going to work on it together though we should probably let each other know when we are so we don't overlap any efforts. Currently I'm back to trying to chip off more of my debug list. (While playtesting further.)

 

[Toffer90]

Ok, I can probably find time to work on animal grouping names from the 3. of December. If you get back to it before then, let me know. ^^

 

[Thunderbrd]

Will do!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I also feel I need to do something about combat rules with larger groups. A lion doesn't take down the whole herd... just one specimen among them. Then calls it good and feasts. A human hunter wouldn't be all that different..

Mostly, again a wild life documentary showed some lions killing a whole herd of donkeys. They killed more than they could eat and just kept killing. The problem was the donkeys were trapped in a box canyon and could not escape. Every move they made triggered the hunting instinct in the lions.