Anno Domini Classic: discussion thread part 3 (warning: lots of images on page one)

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Isn't it great to have Redalert back?

 

[RedAlert]

Thanks for the nice comments everyone .

@R8XFT: The cities update looks really good. I'm glad to be able to help. I'll start work on the Indian cities. How about the first era encompassing the Indus valley civilisation?
How soon do you need these, btw? Personally, I would feel much better having Blue Monkey's help, although that would mean putting off most of the work untill the weekend. (Although I do feel confident enough to start the first era now.) Indian Architecture is extraordinarily complex, and I bow to Blue's knowledge of that area.

@Yoda Power: Thank you! The middle eastern cities I previewed were actually meant to be Carthaginian. I got the inspiration from reading Gilbert Charles-Picard's Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal.
P.S. I understand I owe you some city graphics! I wasn't sure if you'd still need/want them one and a half years after the fact, but if you do, you may find some of the cities I'm making for R8XFT could work as Harappan / Indus valley cities. Please let me know.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Cities update

Now that the era one cities that RedAlert did for the Celtic culture group are in, I think that all eras are fine there.

How about this for Europe?

Having integrated the other cities RedAlert posted for the Middle-East culture group - plus some other amendments and a couple of eras taken from the new MEM mod - possibly this culture group is also now ok?

As I'm also happy with the Mediterranean city set (except maybe the roofs in eras two and three - but this is a very minor concern) - if the above city sets are also alright, it would just leave the Indian culture group to do.

I think these look good for their respective locations.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'll start work on the Indian cities. How about the first era encompassing the Indus valley civilisation?

I was thinking the same thing. Remember that their roads tend to be rectilinear, and that buildings have no windows facing the street. In the largest size there ought to be a tank (outdoor pool/bath)

How soon do you need these, btw? Personally, I would feel much better having Blue Monkey's help, although that would mean putting off most of the work untill the weekend.

I may be able to get something for you tonight, at least enough to start the next era, and sketch out the others. I just didn't want to promise.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Thank-you everyone!! I agree that the first era should encompass the Indus valley culture - as the Harappans are one of the civs in the mod!

@Blue Monkey - any tips for diplomacy.txt with respect to Indian civs?

I'm getting along fine with the mod, but the clock's ticking down to next Wednesday. I doubt that I'll have the mod completed by then. Perhaps I'll work towards doing a "demo" version with about 8-10 civs in it; no promises, I'll see what I can do. I am currently working on the mod 24/7.

The Sea people have kindly left the mod and made way for Etruria. I think this is for the best. Etruria's ships never sink in the sea and they can board rafts - so they get their troops abroad earlier than any other civ. There's also plans for pottery kilns to boost trade.

I've been busy sorting out the Huns' gameplay today. They have no nomads or settlers, though they do have a horseman instead of the slinger once warrior code is discovered. They'll need to think about getting the nomad horseman (available with horse archery), as this unit takes 1 pop point and can actually settle (as well as attack). The stable (available with horse breeding) is a maintenance-free barracks; their era one unique wonders allow them to heal in enemy territory and upgrade units at half price. Their general advantage is that all horse troops don't require horses to build, have blitz, are unimpeded by terrain and have +1HP. They're terrifying if you find them next to you - but it's not unbalanced gameplay either. Here's how their first era is shaping up (in the other eras, they'll have a much more generic Anno Domini tech tree):

I've still to put in the "upgrades at half price" building which will be with the expansion tech. Any ideas what I can call this building?
The "Art of War" building available with plunder is called "Spoils of War" and acts like the Colossus.

Other era one changes:
Papyrus maker : needs reeds within city limits to be able to be built; increases luxury rate by 50%.
The school now needs a papyrus maker in the city before it can be built.
The Chief's hut is now a SW; it has three benefits: acts as a free barracks, has +50% defensive bonus and +50% tax bonus.
Mining now allows the quarry, which needs stone within the city limits to be able to be built. It increases productivity by 25%, but causes a small amount of pollution.
Oligarchy is now missing; the Hanging Gardens is available with monarchy - as is the palace. Not all civs can research masonry, so I couldn't keep it there.

Don't worry too much about the spacing on the tech tree - I'll tidy it up.

 

[Plotinus]

Wow, it's looking fantastic! The Huns sound like they're going to be serious fun to play.

I didn't realise next Wednesday is the planned release date. I should have at least one or two things to send you before then, if all goes well.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I'm getting along fine with the mod, but the clock's ticking down to next Wednesday. I doubt that I'll have the mod completed by then. Perhaps I'll work towards doing a "demo" version with about 8-10 civs in it; no promises, I'll see what I can do. I am currently working on the mod 24/7.

I'd say 8 civs, so that it could be some kind of Anno Domini MP.

The Sea people have kindly left the mod and made way for Etruria. I think this is for the best. Etruria's ships never sink in the sea and they can board rafts - so they get their troops abroad earlier than any other civ. There's also plans for pottery kilns to boost trade.

Sounds good to me

...Huns...

Also sounds good to me

I've still to put in the "upgrades at half price" building which will be with the expansion tech. Any ideas what I can call this building?

Do they have a wonder called the "Scourge of God" later in the game? If not, then this could be an option.

Oligarchy is now missing

NOOO! Will the gov't itself stay in?

Everything else

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

NOOO! Will the gov't (Oligarchy) itself stay in?

I was thinking of it being a specific government for Greek civs.

 

[Virote_Considon]

*phew* So the Spartans won't have to work out which out of Monarchy and Democracy is the lesser of the 2 evils

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm getting along fine with the mod, but the clock's ticking down to next Wednesday. I doubt that I'll have the mod completed by then. Perhaps I'll work towards doing a "demo" version with about 8-10 civs in it; no promises, I'll see what I can do. I am currently working on the mod 24/7.

Yikes! 11 years as an academic researcher has led me astray. It’s easier for me to be thorough than prompt. I finally realized I need to answer all the questions you’ve been throwing at me piece-meal rather than trying to respond to a whole post. So I’m going to try to crank out as many as I can tonight. If I double post, forgive me. Images to help RedAlert going to be last in the queue; I’d rather slow down the city graphics a little than the whole mod a lot. And by the way, since I’ve given up being thorough for the moment I reserve the right to change my opinion at the drop of a reference.

First up, an easy one:

I'm also planning to make a few flavour units for India next week to suit the mod; I've looked at the blue lotus links to get some ideas .

There's three Indian civs in the mix ... - so they'll need some units doing, as units specific to that culture are few and far between.

Oops I forgot the other unit line, the one that's the keystone to South Asian armies, and what I'd propose as the Mauryan UU- The list I sketched completely avoided mention of Rathas. At some point The subcontinent civs are going to need a two-man (charioteer & archer), two-axled, 2-4 horse chariot with a big-ol’ chattra (parasol).


EDIT: Elephant Line: Lancer, Archer, War (heavily armored, etc.; an A4D2M2 with an added HP bonus)
Any "flavour" naval units should probably have the lateen-style (triangular) sail. I know there're plenty of units that fit already available.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I've chosen Agricultural/Industrious for Harappa ... The Kushan are Organised/Spiritual ... What about the new civ? Also, if you feel that the Kushan have the wrong traits, then please let me know

...if there are extra advantages we can give to the Indian civs, that's fine, part of their special gameplay!

My impressions for culture traits for the three Indian civs:
Harappans: Agricultural/Organized. They should have high war weariness, start with extra workers & early granaries.
Kushans should be Organised/Spiritual or Organised/Stable with early or bonuses to diplomacy related things (maps, RoP, etc.); maybe they could always start with knowledge of some other civs (one of the Europeans and one of the Asians) to represent their Silk Road dominance?
Mauryans: Warlike/Philosophical. I'd give them a couple of extra offensive units at the beginning, to represent Asoka's early conquests (Maybe chariots, that they can't build more of until later). Give them early access to spies and espionage skills and anything else that would aid cultural conversion, to represent Asoka’s efforts to spread Buddhism.

 

[Blue Monkey]

...There are sections in the tech tree I'd like to replace for the Indian civilizations. ...
Era one
...The above two leads to Horseriding (first horse unit: A2D1M2). My thoughts were that we could replace this branch with elephant riders - there's a follow-up tech in era two which could also be replaced.

The Indians actually arranged their military in four lines: Infantry (often primarily defensive), Cavalry (flexible in role), Chariots (swift attackers, poor defense), and Elephants (massive offense but slower than either Cav. or Chariot & needing Infantry to defend them) + archers within each line. If for gameplay purposes you want them to have elephants instead of horses I understand.

Logistics leads to Archery (first archer unit (A3D1M1) and a GW which gives a free skirmisher (A3D2M1)

A good Indian wonder here would be the Swayamvara, which features prominently in both the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Its centerpiece in both is an archery contest (parallels to Robin Hood and William Tell should be noted).

Masonry builds walls and leads to a flavoured tech, which normally leads to a flavour GW. The Great Granary would be good here for Harappa.

While the Granary would suit Harappa, The Great Bath, also Harappan, would better suit the other two civs as well. Maybe the flavour tech could be something like Civic Plumbing, since both Harappan & Mauryan cities had sewers, flood drains, and wells with piped-in water, and it fits with my suggested GW.

Era two
A flavour tech following Religion allows a specific religion to be the tech, and has a flavour building, typically allowing +1 happy face. Perhaps the Rubiyat could come in here, carrying an additional bonus?

The specific religion should probably be called Hinduism, although that name actually covers a host of religious paths, some of which are mutually exclusive. Buddhism can, from a certain point of view, be thought of as a sort of Protestant Hinduism (I hope no one starts a diatribe; I know I’m oversimplifying to the point of distortion). I would pick Vedi as the flavor building. (The religious building sequence should go Lingam>Vedi>Mandir >Stupa (the last is Buddhist)). If you want a poem/wonder Ramayana is the logical choice.

The Republic is being replaced in many civs with a government more suitable to the civilization; what do you suggest and what could be it's stats? It would come towards the end of the second era and should be one that the civ might want to keep until the end of the game.

Mahajanapada (“great footprint of the tribe”) is a term used in reference to group of 16 nations in northern India who had a modified republican form of government in which a king is elected for life, and is accountable to a council of ministers. It is similar in many ways to the way the Buddhist Sangha (community) operates.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Era three
Only one item to change here; a flavour tech following Urbanism leads to a leisure-time improvement which improves happiness

Karen Armstrong has argued that Buddhism was a response to increased urbanisation. I’d pick Dharma Yoga as the flavour tech. It's inclusive of both Jainism & Buddhism as similar, and contemporary, systems. It could also be taken to refer to Krishna's speech to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-Gita.

The improvement would be Mrigadava (deer park), which combines features of modern parkland, urban forest, and nature preserves. It might be a pollution reducer also, if that is needed. Buddha’s first sermon was delivered in the Deer Park at Sarnath (no HPL jokes, please).

Era four
There's one flavour tech following Feudalism and one following Scholatisicm. These can lead to anything at all, as long as it is in flavour with the civilization.

Following Feudalism I would put something like Steel Foundry (given the superiority of Indian steel production), allowing advanced military units. There are several stupendous steel pillars around India offered as devotional or memorial monuments (a possible improvement or SW).

Scholasticism could lead to Nakshatravya (mathematical astronomy). Mathas were temple complexes that included a “Hall of Study” where both secular and religious subjects were taught; they would be an appropriate building to be available with this tech. And you might put Nalanda University here, if you haven't used it as a wonder earlier.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Thank-you very much for all the information!!

Nalanda university - who could have that as a unique wonder?

I like the chariot with the parasol; currently beyond my capabilities....I wonder if someone will give it a go for me?

Right then; to work....today's India day!

 

[Blue Monkey]

OK, I've got a building list, including a couple of SW suggestions, a post on appropriate diplomacy text, and city images for RedAlert to go. But after 3 1/2 hours my back hurts and I can't think straight. Hopefully I can add more tomorrow.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

OK, I've got a building list, including a couple of SW suggestions, a post on appropriate diplomacy text, and city images for RedAlert to go. But after 3 1/2 hours my back hurts and I can't think straight. Hopefully I can add more tomorrow.

Your hard work is much appreciated. Thank you very very much!

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

If you're in need of any Indian flavored buildings, send a request my way anytime.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

If you're in need of any Indian flavored buildings, send a request my way anytime.

Thank-you!! Take your pick from those listed by Blue Monkey above; I'm going to get placeholders in there for now .

 

[Blue Monkey]

If you're in need of any Indian flavored buildings, send a request my way anytime.

Thank-you!! Take your pick from those listed by Blue Monkey above; I'm going to get placeholders in there for now .

I'll be posting a broader Indian flavors building list today, maybe not until late this evening even though I'm working on it now.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I've put this together this evening and plan to animate it tomorrow:

It's not the most accurate representation, I know; but I thought that it looked good enough to be a pikeman in the last era. The blue areas will be civ-coloured; I was planning to definately do a swordsman in the same style for the last era - I have the right sort of sword - and (if I can sort out the animations) an archer - all these units to be for the late part of the mod.

Yes, I made the shield texture myself, copying from the Blue Lotus flags; a bit corny, I guess, but (to me) better than no design. I think it will look a lot better at civ scale.