Another First World Muslim Joins ISIS

[Terxpahseyton]

@Kaiserguard
I agree that humans on an emotional level and societies on a functional level have great use for something "greater" than the individual. I just don't by no means see why this greater has to be divine. Rather, I think this something greater has to be community. A sense of being part of one, of a shared destiny. That gives reason to live, to be good and to expire to better yourself and others. And if that is a mutual affair, faith will be there. Faith in your community. In humans.

I said I don't see why this something giving rise to such a community has to be divine, but Islam seems to be a good case for how something divine can make it happen.
Islam seems to be able to provide such community. And I even also agree that a large-scale non-religious alternative is not in sight in the as you say "objectivist Western hell-holes". So in a way I agree with your assumption. But think your conclusion is wrong because you got hung-up on traditional ways to establish the good rather than looking beneath this layer of manifestation and see what really is there which moves people. And how else this could come about. I said an alternative was not really in sight, but I still think there is an alternative. To which there are IMO two components:
Way more focus on cooperation instead of competition in economics
Rituals which foster community-building. Like the ritual to meet at your local Muslim group.

Interestingly, both are things which were goals of Communist East Germany. But that doesn't invalidate those goals as I fear it will to quit a few. Because I see no reason whatsoever to assume that their implementation was without fundamental alternative avenues which have not been tried yet. I mean there is the part where it was all centrally orchestrated and dictated and imposed, for starters. Or the innate inability of the state to learn and develop and innovate. Whereas instead merely the right conditions could be centrally provided. And developed and innovated based on a learning experience.

 

[Tahuti]

your just saying religious belief is true, because it's truer, a belief that your beliefs are better because you believe

I have given you rational-based arguments for it, namely, that the human mind cannot individually concept all that is good.

You say that humans aren't capable of governing themselves, but you're not actually suggesting that they can do other than govern themselves, only that they should not be allowed to realise that they are governing themselves. What you're proposing is an infantile fetish: God as a doting parent rendered on a celestial scale, relieving us from meaningful responsibility in our lives. You're not expressing scepticism in the capacity of human reason, here, you're expressing a fear of having to rely on it, and that isn't anti-modern, it's just immature.

We are still governing ourselves and aware of it, though by the use of religious inspiration, we overcome the necessary limitations that would otherwise exist. This is somewhat to my views on aristocracy: We should be governed by people that are some ways more than human.

I don't think we are straying off-topic though. Islam does seem to offer all this to those young men. I occasionally young White European convert to Islam and I am not all surprised or astounded by it.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Those conversions apparently happen because that person was "mentally challenged" or "lost" according to the news. Is that the case or is it more?

The converts I know of actually practice better than those "born into the faith". The reason for that is that they have made the conscious decision when they were mature enough to practice Islam, unlike the masses who grow up with it as some identity.

 

[Tahuti]

@Kaiserguard
I agree that humans on an emotional level and societies on a functional level have great use for something "greater" than the individual. I just don't by no means see why this greater has to be divine. Rather, I think this something greater has to be community. A sense of being part of one, of a shared destiny. That gives reason to live, to be good and to expire to better yourself and others. And if that is a mutual affair, faith will be there. Faith in your community. In humans.

Actually, people need something greater than not only the human individual, or even the human community, but something greater than the combined force of mankind.

Those conversions apparently happen because that person was "mentally challenged" or "lost" according to the news. Is that the case or is it more?

The converts I know of actually practice better than those "born into the faith". The reason for that is that they have made the conscious decision when they were mature enough to practice Islam, unlike the masses who grow up with it as some identity.

For some reason, I am thinking about Fight Club because of this thread.

 

[Kyriakos]

In death a memeber of Poject Lenhem has a name.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Actually, people need something greater than not only the human individual, or even the human community, but something greater than the combined force of mankind.

Could you explain why in a more intelligible manner? No offense, but your efforts so far to explain that - I didn't understand what you meant. Something about limited human abilities etc... hugh? Could you perhaps provide a clear plastic example how this greater than human holy divine thingy comes into play and how it is irreplaceable in its important function?

 

[Tarquelne]

The converts I know of actually practice better than those "born into the faith". The reason for that is that they have made the conscious decision when they were mature enough to practice Islam, unlike the masses who grow up with it as some identity.

"Zeal of the converted" is the usual phrase.

It's sometimes - maybe often - not so much because they've made a conscious decision, but rather because they have a strong need to re-define themselves. This might be a wholly positive, if not 100% healthy, mental crutch. "I am orthodox!" OTOH, the focus may be negative: The more they embrace what they've become the more they reject what they were.

And how better to reject what you were than go shoot at people who, in many important ways, are what you used to be?

 

[Formaldehyde]

It wasn't until secular influences and advancements in science moderated the fanatical morals and beliefs found particularly in the OT that Western Civilization finally progressed beyond medieval barbarism.

Ironically, it is the very same sort of extremism which is now vilified with some Muslims. That they should finally join the 19th Century instead of being hopelessly stuck in the distant past.

I don't mind anybody having religious beliefs. But they forfeited their right to impose their own provincial views on everybody else long ago.

 

[Kaitzilla]

This is causing a bit of a stir in the UK, atm.

Spoiler :

Link to video.

I bet!
They even put their full names on the screen.
Found the longer version:


Link to video.

That masked guy has an injured left eye it looks like.

...
So I guess the question here is: What motivates these people to leave countries that not only promote liberalism, but guarantee a high quality of life?

To the guys in this video at least, they said something about "Jihad" being the reason.
Not sure what that is.

 

[Sanguivorant]

This type of Jihad occurred in Afghanistan against the Soviets and Bosnia against the Serbs. They see the Muslim world in trouble by a foreign aggressor and go to fight them.

In this case it is different, because they are fighting other Muslims. So I don't really know.

 

[Borachio]

His Dad doesn't like it.

The father of a British man who appears in an online video urging Muslims to join the militant group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) spoke on Saturday of his family's distress at his son's actions.

Ahmed Muthana told BBC TV his son Nasser, 20, from the Welsh capital Cardiff, was one of five Islamist fighters who appeared in the video released this week encouraging others to join ISIL and fight for it in Syria and Iraq.

The video comes amid growing concern among British police, security services and political leaders about the number of Britons travelling to Syria and becoming radicalised by militant Islamists.

"I want to cry. Why are you doing this? Who led them to go there?" said Muthana of his medical student son, who appears in the online footage identified as Abu Muthanna al-Yemeni from Britain.

"Is he going to kill or is he going to do anything?"

The BBC said Muthana, who told them his 17-year-old son Aseel had also gone to Syria, had been radicalised in Cardiff.

"I don't think that's Nasser talking, it's someone else is teaching him to talk like this because the attitude of Nasser is 100 percent completely different," he said.

"Somebody is driving those kids to do this problem."

ISIL, an offshoot of al Qaeda, has captured swathes of territory in northwest and central Iraq, including the second city of Mosul, taking weaponry from the fleeing Iraqi army.

On Saturday, security sources said the Sunni militants had seized a border post on the Iraq-Syria frontier.

British Prime Minister David Cameron said on Wednesday ISIS was currently the greatest security risk to Britain and fighters who travelled to Syria and Iraq posed a real threat to the nation on their return.

Peter Fahy from Britain's Association of Chief Police Officers told the BBC an estimated 500 Britons had gone to Syria and Iraq.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/140622/world-middle-east/article/father-uk-man-isis-recruitment-video-tells-distress

 

[CuddlyBear]

Now, morality can also exist without religion and be conceived completely rationally. Yet, this is an inferior form of morality, because that will - and with it a society's dreams and identity - will be limited to that what an individual human mind can create. And we are very limited.

If you read the Bible or wutever your holy book is it seems God's morality is just as limited as us humans. There's two billion Christians and I'm happy they don't follow the morality found in the Bible but the morality brought by a secular society. When you insult God, why does God sometime kill the insulter himself and sometimes commands people to kill for him? (Compare Leviticus 10:1-2 to Leviticus 24:10-23) Must be some divine morality that I can't understand. A God that commands you to kill for him is not someone worthy of worship. He commanded the Israelites to kill and destroy entire cities and peoples. He commanded people to carry out ethnic cleansing. He is no better than someone like Hitler was. He punishes and even puts to death the innocent for the crimes committed by someone else. He is not worthy of worship. Immoral bastard he is.

Am I dead yet? Shouldn't I be taken to the edge of town and be stoned to death like God commands? No. Why? We don't do that anymore becus it's immoral. God and the Bible is immoral. Of course you can pick from the bible and choose what morals you want to follow but what's the point of God and the Bible then? It's you who is choosing the morals just like any atheist, non-believer or someone of another religion! God and divinity has nothing to with it, it's your weak limited mind doing it. What morals you find in the Bible you find around the world in different cultures. Why? Because those morals are created by our weak limited minds! You don't need no book to learn those morals or some liar paedophile in a fancy coat telling what to do.

Moderator Action: Enough. Tone it down several notches.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Sanguivorant]

Shut up noob.

Moderator Action: Please report troublesome posts, don't engage on their level.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Loppan Torkel]

If you read the Bible or wutever your holy book is it seems God's morality is just as limited as us humans. There's two billion Christians and I'm happy they don't follow the morality found in the Bible but the morality brought by a secular society. When you insult God, why does God sometime kill the insulter himself and sometimes commands people to kill for him? (Compare Leviticus 10:1-2 to Leviticus 24:10-23) Must be some divine morality that I can't understand. A God that commands you to kill for him is not someone worthy of worship. He commanded the Israelites to kill and destroy entire cities and peoples. He commanded people to carry out ethnic cleansing. He is no better than someone like Hitler was. He punishes and even puts to death the innocent for the crimes committed by someone else. He is not worthy of worship. Immoral bastard he is.

Am I dead yet? Shouldn't I be taken to the edge of town and be stoned to death like God commands? No. Why? We don't do that anymore becus it's immoral. God and the Bible is immoral. Of course you can pick from the bible and choose what morals you want to follow but what's the point of God and the Bible then? It's you who is choosing the morals just like any atheist, non-believer or someone of another religion! God and divinity has nothing to with it, it's your weak limited mind doing it. What morals you find in the Bible you find around the world in different cultures. Why? Because those morals are created by our weak limited minds! You don't need no book to learn those morals or some liar paedophile in a fancy coat telling what to do.

Did you edit to put more trollin in?

 

[Tahuti]

Could you explain why in a more intelligible manner? No offense, but your efforts so far to explain that - I didn't understand what you meant. Something about limited human abilities etc... hugh? Could you perhaps provide a clear plastic example how this greater than human holy divine thingy comes into play and how it is irreplaceable in its important function?

I find it personally very straightforward myself, and making it more straightforward is... difficult. Apparently, the argument is simply very complex, which is why many educated people are more drawn to secular humanism than religious thought. I myself have difficulty fully associating with one religion as well. I readily concede that secular humanism is easier to argue for than philosophical justifications for religion, usually with arguments like "there is no scientific proof" or "just look at the bible and see all those evil things". Ultimately, these arguments are unconvincing if you think about it, since no scientific proof is not disproof, and obviously not every statement in the bible is literally true.

It is worth noting that most faithful just believe and do not seek a philosophical justification or nuance for belie of the like I just provided.

 

[CuddlyBear]

Shut up noob.

Did you edit to put more trollin in?

Is not trolling. Someone's going to say "that's what fundamentalists do". So what? Maybe they're right in their interpretations. Why is your interpretation with your weak limited mind the correct one? It's the word of God innit. It's the same God doing these things that you worship. Why you choose to worship some parts of what God did and ignore some others and label it fundamentalism I don't get. Judge God by what he did not by what you want to believe he did. My judgment is that God is an immoral bastard and even if he existed I would not worship such a genocidal racist selfish tyrant.

Now you can go all book-learning big school words on me that I don't understand for I'm of a limited mind but the thruth is that the God of the Bible is not worthy of worshipping.

 

[Tahuti]

Is not trolling. Someone's going to say "that's what fundamentalists do". So what? Maybe they're right in their interpretations. Why is your interpretation with your weak limited mind the correct one? It's the word of God innit. It's the same God doing these things that you worship. Why you choose to worship some parts of what God did and ignore some others and label it fundamentalism I don't get. Judge God by what he did not by what you want to believe he did. My judgment is that God is an immoral bastard and even if he existed I would not worship such a genocidal racist selfish tyrant.

Now you can go all book-learning big school words on me that I don't understand for I'm of a limited mind but the thruth is that the God of the Bible is not worthy of worshipping.

Atheism is heroic

Spoiler :

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I find it personally very straightforward myself, and making it more straightforward is... difficult.

Perhaps I should make my issue clear. I found it just incredible abstract. Like I didn't know what those abstractions really stood for. But given your strong claims about its role and value, clearly it is about very real and plastic dynamics. Could you simply illustrate what you mean?

 

[Sanguivorant]

It's probably best to go back in time to explain the role of religion in society.

Let's take the Ancient Egyptians, I mean the ancient, ancient Egyptians. Like the People of the Nile before any real civilization came to be.

You had a few people, likely in a tribe, living together in that region. Food was plenty, water was plenty, people could essentially be self-sufficient, or at least not require a form of government. Remember, the primary role of government is to protect life, liberty and happiness property. If those are met without government intervention, then government is simply not needed.

Anyhow, just so we do not stray too far off. Now you do have a problem with security. The neighbouring tribes or nomadic peoples get jealous of those Nile dwellers, and want a piece of the pie. Instead of cohabiting, they want to take the land outright. Now you have a security problem.

How to solve this security problem? One person stands out from the crowd and says, "Give me all of your sons, your tools and your resources, and I will muster the force needed to defend our settlement." The people, seeing little alternative, give in.

If that person fails, the story ends there.

If the person succeeds in defending the settlement, they are crowned a hero and a protector. However, because the person's role of defence is finished, they no longer have a right to all of the resources, so ultimately you go from having a lot of power to being just like everyone else.

This time was lucky. The people gave in quickly enough in order to muster a proper defence of the village, and it was defended. What about next time? How do you make sure that what you have established is maintained so that the village is being constantly defended?

The answer here is religion. That hero could easily have said that they were guided by the help of divine beings, or heck even claim that they are the divine being. What does that do? It gives people faith in the system that they have established, gives legitimacy to your rule and ensures that resources will be swiftly distributed to where they are needed in the future. Because remember, once you have fulfilled your purpose, you are no longer needed. So a belief that you have the aid of a higher power gives you the legitimacy you need to keep what you already have.

How is this related to the current situation in Iraq? I have no clue, but I'm sure you smart individuals will find out.

Also, I find it interesting that the main reason they give for joining is to remove the hypocrisy that they feel is in their hearts. They feel that they are hypocrites by being Muslims yet living a lifestyle they deem as non-Islamic.

 

[Kyriakos]

2 million, or... 200 million? Monster-riding cavalry of the apocalypse, to be exact?

Cause they are supposed to begin appearing in that overall region anyway