another hof spacerace start

[vranasm]

well why 37 is most probably because you can't get OR bonus on OF hammers I think (you get the OR bonus hammers when building building, but forge increases yield directly imo) it has to do something with the fix to the stone+walls abuse....

why the whip point at 45 allows for 2 pop whip...no clue

 

[GKey]

Ah, ok!
So OR does not apply to overflow, while forge does? Good to know!

Thanks, Vranasm!

 

[Snaaty]

didnt know that... ...thanks vranasm (i did observe the same, but did forget to ask about it)

 

[kossin]

That's 1 pop + base production, I think.

30+1+2+1+3 = 37

All multipliers apply when whipping but the overflow is re-divided by them so that it doesn't compound.

In this case, what you'd actually get:
base prod + (pop whipped + base prod)*multiplier = total hammers <<< note, 4H are lost from whipped pop
15 + (2*30 + 7-4)*1.5 = 109 <<< round down

(total hammers - building cost)/multiplier = overflow
(109 - 60)/1.5 = 32 OF <<< round down again

~~~

Sometimes the game does some weird rounding for whipping. Take for example a 35H Axemen, if you invest 5H, it becomes a 1-pop whip. (which is what you'd expect)
An example that doesn't follow this is Galleons but I forget the exact numbers.

 

[GKey]

These numbers are....

Again!
Before whip

Spoiler :

37

After whip:

Spoiler :

105/60 ????? Edit: ah ok, 15 + 90 from 2 pop whip.

Next turn:

Spoiler :

Overflow 32........

 

[GKey]

And btw current production is not included in BUG options.

Spoiler :

That's for whip button tool tip. May be it's because BUFFY includes old version of BUG.

 

[vranasm]

Sometimes the game does some weird rounding for whipping. Take for example a 35H Axemen, if you invest 5H, it becomes a 1-pop whip. (which is what you'd expect)
An example that doesn't follow this is Galleons but I forget the exact numbers.

well since each pop you whip gives 30H whipping axe with 5/35 actually means you need production from 1 pop exactly leaving you with 0 OF...
that's why maximum OF from pop you can get is 29H and the question is if this hammers are multiplied or not and I am sure OR, Stone don't apply.

What I am not so sure about is forge bonus since it is in a sense different multiplier.

 

[Strickl3r]

Hello, i have a question:

Mining Inc. is mentioned here to be very good.
How do you guys make sure you get an Engeneer for this Corp?

I don't usually play Corps at all, but i remember even when i thought about it, i never had an Engeneer for mining inc.
Only thing that comes to my mind to make this a sure thing is building iron works in National Epic city but that seems kind of wired

 

[Snaaty]

@ strickler:

yup, you are right, the only gp you really need to plan ahead basically from the start of the game is a GE (if you want to have im early, that is, so ironworks comes to late), because you want to have one with 100% odds (usually you dont get a second shot in time, so not making it 100% is really a gamble)

-> i can only speak for myself:

i went for forges (MC) very early and designed a GE breeding city. there i did start to run an engineer right after the forge was ready and never stopped running him. i also did build the HG in this city to make it 5 GPPs / turns (and because the HG really is a great wonder if you are ind and have rexed early).

i also made sure, the GE is my second Gperson, only the GS for the academy in capital came before him, so it took me aprox. 100/3+100/5=54 turns to get him and it was a 100% GE

 

[Doshin]

These numbers are....

Again!
Before whip

Spoiler :

37

After whip:

Spoiler :

105/60 ????? Edit: ah ok, 15 + 90 from 2 pop whip.

Next turn:

Spoiler :

Overflow 32........

105 - 60 = 45H OF

Add the base production at size 2 (3H) = 48H

48H/1.5 = 32

Edit: the rounding is a little strange, since the 3H of base production should be boosted to 4.5H. In the second screenshot, 4.5 gets rounded down to 4 . I guess then 49H/1.5 = 32.666H, which also gets rounded down.

 

[Strickl3r]

@ strickler:

yup, you are right, the only gp you really need to plan ahead basically from the start of the game is a GE (if you want to have im early, that is, so ironworks comes to late), because you want to have one with 100% odds (usually you dont get a second shot in time, so not making it 100% is really a gamble)

-> i can only speak for myself:

i went for forges (MC) very early and designed a GE breeding city. there i did start to run an engineer right after the forge was ready and never stopped running him. i also did build the HG in this city to make it 5 GPPs / turns (and because the HG really is a great wonder if you are ind and have rexed early).

i also made sure, the GE is my second Gperson, only the GS for the academy in capital came before him, so it took me aprox. 100/3+100/5=54 turns to get him and it was a 100% GE

Ah ok thanks for the answer, i was asking myself if HoF player gambel on that and just reroll another map if the GE doesn't come with one of the golden ages
Quite an investment to get a GP so early and save it so long.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The vast majority of good HoF players do not gamble. That is common misconception, often made by players that rarely play HoF games.

With regard to Great Person probabilities, HoF players usually
ensure 100% probability of essential Great People types.

Sound strategy demands control over one's game. Less than 100% probabilty of a essential Great Person type would be evidence of the lack of such control.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[GKey]

105 - 60 = 45H OF

Add the base production at size 2 (3H) = 48H

48H/1.5 = 32

Edit: the rounding is a little strange, since the 3H of base production should be boosted to 4.5H. In the second screenshot, 4.5 gets rounded down to 4 . I guess then 49H/1.5 = 32.666H, which also gets rounded down.

But wait, from 2nd screeny we see 4 hammers production after whip and 37 hammers whip overflow from 1st screeny.
But on the next turn we got only 32 hammers from previous build, means whip overflow was calculated as 28 . The question is how 37 become 28?

I thought BUG suppose to make things less confusing, not vice versa...


Edit: Oh, I think I got it. Doshin might be right. Base production doesn't get bonuses when become overflow. So it's 37 / 1.25 (removing forge bonus)= 29.6 from whip plus 4/1.5 (removing forge and OR bonus)= 2.666.. from production - = 32.2666... = 32



Edit2: Or actually they just added 29.6 and 3 and rounded it down.

Funny, how they lost a hammer in the process (30*1.25 = 37.5 rounded to 37, then 37/1.25 = 29.666 rounded to 29 ). I've heard they fixed rounding bug, might be another one.

 

[vranasm]

gosh this game is tough if you want to compete with GKey.

I tried to simulate a bit his "steal workers" strategy and while I got couple of workers (a bit later since I was later to izzy's borders etc) and Oracle->CS (around 1240 BC) I actually came worse off with HA warfare since I captured only Peter and Lincoln got to Feudalism like 300 BC....

absolutely riddiculous. If anything the save I was working on yesterday was even worse off then the saves I showed here before...

I basically give up... it's no fun for me.

(btw tested Oracle->Machinery before the attempt with HA's, but it was even worse too)

 

[GKey]

Well, it's all come to how successful you are with workersteal IMO. 7-10 workers by 1000 BC plus REX to 6 cities will do the trick.

Stolen workers cottage our floodplains you get insane tech rate right there. Use it for fastest writing then Math and chop settlers. Then build oracle while teching CoL. etc etc etc

But all starts from workersteal. I went Isa -> Lincoln -> Peter (3 times) -> Gandhi (twice, he hates us for DoW his friends anyway).

 

[vranasm]

Well, it's all come to how successful you are with workersteal IMO. 7-10 workers by 1000 BC plus REX to 6 cities will do the trick.

Stolen workers cottage our floodplains you get insane tech rate right there. Use it for fastest writing then Math and chop settlers. Then build oracle while teching CoL. etc etc etc

But all starts from workersteal. I went Isa -> Lincoln -> Peter (3 times) -> Gandhi (twice, he hates us for DoW his friends anyway).

I got only 3 workers from the first 3, when I got my warrior to ghandi I got killed on 5% odds by barb warrior so I had to stop worker stealing.

I saw you got your 2nd city by 2800BC... I think you used pre-math chops imo... or I am just clueless about this game...

 

[GKey]

Yes I chopped 2 forests pre-math. Then was prechopping while waiting for math.

Also you did not stagnate growth by building worker, did you? We grow our capital non stop, using helper cities to work either golds or flood plain cottages - that's great advantage too.

 

[GKey]

Another whipping glitch, now with universities:

Spoiler :

With forge and OR 3 pop whip gives 135 hammers, so for we need invest 65 in university to 3 pop whip it right?

Nope!

Spoiler :

 

[vranasm]

ok I am kinda replaying the map "gkey style"... up to 2440 BC...

I admit I am copying your tech progress since it makes sense. am a bit on couple of x-roads now

funny to dow russia and us twice already, spanish and india only once....

i wonder if i should start settler in capital since it kinda makes sense to settle east for horses

 

[Snaaty]

@ vranasm:

had a quick look at your save, looks good so far. some ideas:

- you are not building a setter and you are not growing your capital. when working with helper cities, i usually use the following rule:
build settlers with max. hammers, let helpers grow, use max. food and switch hammer tiles (in this case gold) to helpers when growing capital

- you need to design a city that gets a library asap and runs 2 scientists, if you want to follow gkey plan to oracle cs and get an academy in capital in parallel. since you dont have any city with lots of food not shared with capital, i would settle pig city next. hillpigs + 2 fps are great for whipping a lib and running 2 scientits asap

- i would switch capital to settler, switch research to math. tile mm: corn to guanz. 2 gold to cap, fp 4 and 89 to cap, other cottages fps to shang

- math should be done in 8-9 turns, start prechopping the remaining 5 forests, to get the next 2-3 settlers out asap once math is in (3 settlers within the next 15 turns should be doable)

- leave forests near guan for oracle, if you have spare workerturns, prechop them (road them first)

- next cities: 1. pigs2 (lib + scientists), 2. on suggar (i would pick the jungle one), 3. near bronze or junglebananas, anywhere with lots of food basically

...

@ gkey:

seeing your planning on whipping and ov with org, i really look forward to your new save, once you have reached 500 AD, since you had the strongest game up to 1 AD already