another hof spacerace start

[vranasm]

Are corporation strategies superior over non-corporation strats when space racing?

at Immortal most probably yes.
On noble seems to be pretty even.
On settler I would say SP has big edge.

 

[kossin]

Late game with corps. Again, I am not an expert but you get 100% multiplier on gold much earlier then on . Therefore in my hof game I was running more merchants then scientists, for 25% more return. I did not even need to build wealth that much, built research instead. No idea if that was right or wrong. May be Kossin will show up to clarify.

Still reading but I'm unfortunately very busy these days

Markets are worth building (IMO) for the happiness if required, it's an excellent infra after heavy whipping for instance. In some scenarios where your gpt is rather low (poor commerce or far-away expansions like SGOTM16), then they can be more justifiable.

Late game, you shouldn't be running Merchants in more than a few cities:
-the 5 cities with Banks MAYBE (reason being, you should have better science multipliers overall). It's rarely worth adding the Grocer so that 100% gold multiplier doesn't happen a lot.
-the WS city (200% multiplier)
-GP farms for trade missions (GMs have higher beaker output through gold at large city sizes)

supermarkets are extremely cheap (I think 150 hammers?) and give +4 health... it usually is like 1-2 turns build without whips/chops in non-corporations city.

I think it was TMIt who mentioned them somehwere and they are extremely effective in what you need from them.

the combo of grocer+supermarket should cover easily the factory+coal plant unhealthiness.

And don't forget you will hit genetics too and once you hit it you will be golden.

I tend not to play with corps, but more with SP usually, but it's mostly due to my laziness .

You only need if you have the spare and are losing food (and 5~10+ turns of use from the extra pops depending on food deficit). Otherwise, it's a waste of 300H.

-> since i have the slider at 100% science anyways, it seemed a wast of hammers so far

Fully agree.

 

[Lazani]

Wow, I'm suprised by the lack of cottage improvements. I was under the impression that for a fast space win you would need at least 8-10 cities cottaged pretty quickly. GKey is working 17/9/20/1 (Village, Town, Hamlet, Cottage) and Doshin is working 12/7/9/10. That's 47 cottage improvements on GKey's behalf and 38 in Doshin's game. While this is of course a good amount of cottage improvements, I would maybe have expected even more in a gae like this with some 25-30 cities. 47 improvements is about 3 cities working 15 cottages. I guess the cottages are needed for fast CS in the earlygame and maybe up to banking, but then gets overtaken by the enourmous amount of research multipliers and that population are more important, hence all the farms?

 

[Snaaty]

info screen 500 AD:



...

@ Lazani:

after, say, 1 AD building cottages isnt worth it any more, because the game wont last long enough to make them fully grow. so i guess gkey and doshin have been doing the same as i did, cottaging up the first cities around the capital and then changing to improvements that immediately give full return (some more cottages come from captured ai cities, but these not grown big enough will be farmed or workshopped over)

...

@ kossing:

good that you are still around

...

edith adds (before i forget it again):

i stumbled across a small bug - if you finish the Taj the last turn of a running GA while having MoM (12 turn GA, Taj is up the turn the GA count would go to 0), you get an extra turn of GA, meaning instead of having 12 GA turns once the Taj is done (0+12 turns), you somehow get 13... ...i wont complain, an extra turn of GA is nice, but definitely a bug, no? is this known?

 

[klonoklown]

Very interesting read guys. I wish I had something to contribute but on another note I'm learning a lot. In your guys opinoins, what is the best unit(s) to rush early with to get that big city count by 1 AD. I've seen one went the HA route and snaaty I believe went with elepults?

I'm just curious because space is one of my weak points in Civ. I've gotten about 15 cities by 1 AD with elepults but that was difficult. Any pointers or comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

[kossin]

i stumbled across a small bug - if you finish the Taj the last turn of a running GA while having MoM (12 turn GA, Taj is up the turn the GA count would go to 0), you get an extra turn of GA, meaning instead of having 12 GA turns once the Taj is done (0+12 turns), you somehow get 13... ...i wont complain, an extra turn of GA is nice, but definitely a bug, no? is this known?

That sounds strange, any saves?

 

[Tempesta13]

That sounds strange, any saves?

I've noticed this as well. I don't even think it has to be the last turn. If you have 4 turns of GA left and 1 turn to finish Taj you hit end turn and you'll have 16 turns of GA the on the following turn. Not positive (and unfortunately I don't get MoM in too many games) but I think you do get an extra GA turn when chaining GAs.

Edit:
Loaded up an old forum game save around 800 AD and I happened to have MoM and was researching Nationalism. I gave myself a GS to start a GA while building Taj. Sure enough, when it finished I was given a free turn of GA.

1 turn before finishing Taj:

Spoiler :

And the following turn:

Spoiler :

I think this may happen even without MoM IIRC. Have to find another game to check but maybe an intentional reward for chaining GAs?????

Edit again: Actually it may be a bug because I don't think it works when chaining GAs with GPs. Only with Taj. So basically it really pays off to use a GA to help build Taj. I still think it is with or without MoM.

 

[vranasm]

My extremely lame attempt to 575 BC (not much MM since I just don't MM), would like some pointers...

it's basically 2 city HA rush on southern neighbor... could take interesting peace from him now... basically thinking healing the HA stack and take out england with it as next step before finishing him

SS of the offer

Spoiler :

adding save too if anyone wants to look.

Biggest lol moment was before taking cap of him since he had there 2 archers I put 6 HA's 2E from the cap and he moves out 1 archer out leaving capital with 1 archer and 3 workers... yeah..just like "thank you?"

I admit I am kinda loss now on tech path, but calendar seems to me "logical choice"

 

[GKey]

I would not take this. Kill him now or redeclaring going to cost you in diplo. And you don't want homeland unhappiness in Delhi.

 

[vranasm]

City of Delhi is much better then anything he can give you.

if you check the save you will realize i have it already. I left the front city near my borders as last, I basically skipped it seeing he had there 5 archers and the rest guarded by 3 archers over 2 cities

edit:

well since you edited the original post... you are right a bit, I will recheck the diplo, since he is buddhist and the only other AI budhist is Elisabeth which I plan to kill next...

It's clear I WILL kill him off, it's matter of timing now.

what about the tech path near future? My thoughts are Calendar, Aesth line, but still lack marble though...

that Mansa teching Construction in 6 is something my eayes are now aiming since I have HBR and currency over him, maybe I can snatch it and rebuild army to WE's???

 

[GKey]

Yep, I've read your screeny wrong. Updated comment above in like 10 sec, but you already replied.

Edit: Calendar is huge on this map. I went Aest-Lit-Mus and regret it. I'd rather go directly for Education without waiting to bulb it. OTOH Snaaty went for Theo-DR for PA-UoS-SM combo. Both worked fine - huge tech rate in both our games.

Will check your save in a sec.

Edit:
Interesting. Let AIs rex instead of you and take cities from their cold dead hands. OTOH only 2 core cities means not so good production. I've made supermedic from my first GG for faster conquest, you want more settled GGs for Rep bonus, right? Will be interesting to see your future progress.

 

[soundjata]

@ Vranasm
Looked at your save, you can bribe Peter and Mansa atm.

Bribing Peter on Gandhi is cheap and can let you destroy his stack before going on him...

Peter's capitol is closer to Beijing than London

 

[Snaaty]

checking your save right now vranasm...

...

interesting to see another different approach. settling only 2 cities leaves you with quite a different start, but it looks really strong so far.

positive compared to the other games (rex. approach):

- you only have -1 towards dari/eli and 0 towards mansa (but you shouldnt have made the arrogant demant towards eli)
- you have 2 really strong cities (bombay + delhi) very early and you already own a shrine
- more strat. possibilities right now, america with glh or russia seem to be interesting targest right now
- better trading options because you havent crippled the ais that much
- solid reseach with rel. low expenses

negative compared to the other games (rex. approach):

- fewer production
- fewer army
- fewer cities
- fewer ressources (mainly callendar ones)

-> how to turn all this into an advantage:

what i would do is the following:
- peace with india for his techs (mono+mc)
- crosstrade with mansa for col
- research 100% into CS next turn (better then callendar in your case, you might be able to trade for it in a bit and the forge gives you another happy with gold)
- trade for construction in 6 turns -> back your army with phants and cats (to do so and to trade for col you need the techs india has...)
- trade wine for your gold with england, stop a worker from building a cottage you wont use right now and get your second gold connected asap (will eliminate angry face in shanghai)
- get a road to your indian cities up asap, they arent connected to your capital (or the other way round, the traderoutes of the indian cities are better, so get your capital and shanghai connected to the indian cities. this will also gain another happy due to phants)
- stop building cottages, use your workers to get your cities connected. this will also stop your health problems (maybe use 1-2 workers for cottages)
- i wouldnt attack eli, she is teching well right now and will be usefull a bit longer (but no danger, has only 2 cities), better plan your path of attack in a way you can jump from 1 target to the next: -> russia ->america -> spain (maybe isa will build another shrine for you if you leave her alone a bit)
- having your army ready around 300 bc to hit russia might result in you taking out russia+america around 1 ad

-> you wont have as many cities as the other approaches, but you might be able to start settling the islands faster with access to the glh. and having more ais to trade with might result in faster teching

 

[vranasm]

thanks for comments both (gkey and snaaty).

That eli arogant demand was basically misclick... I wanted to check something in trade screen (I think I wanted something like monarchy) and thought that I press the button of balancing trade according to her... oops .

I will look into the diplo/warfare with new eyes (Russia->America->Spain x Elisabeth/Persia)

I don't like the trade for Col with Mansa basically because he wants currency AND HBR for CoL and I won't have chips once he finishes construction.

I think the biggest problem regarding production is city 2 because it lacks any natural production... it was kinda missettlement with the intent of overlap on cottages for cap and I thought that I will go with 3 cities, where city 3 will serve as another military pump.

I was kinda too quick with HBR and once you hit HBR there is no reason to delay HA's with another useless settler.

Why I like to capture Elisabeth is basically she owns only 2 cities and should be quick work hopefully. where as another options will be tricky. And another reason is there is wine west from her cap improved and I have already monarchy. Since I traded monarchy from her...does it mean she is close to longbows?

The connection of India and my core is big mistake... it is kinda me changing the plans now since originally the plan was to capture the last city and then I have roads done...

I settled the GG without much thought actually :-D medic would be better for sure ;-).

I think I have at least 3 happy resources from calendar (dye, sugar, silk) right now...

edit:
after taking the peace with India I have connected Delhi to Beijing... so I can build HA's in new territory...

 

[Snaaty]

@ vranasm:

concerning techtrades with mansa:

that´s why i would take the peace-deal with india, because with mc you should have enough for getting 2 techs from mansa

if you manage to get to 500 AD, say up to next WE, i will add you to the 500 AD summary.

...

speaking of updated 500 AD summary, now including doshin and improvements:

gkey/snaaty/doshin
cities total: 26/28/23
island cities: 4/3/5
research 100%: 1528/1545/810
gold research 100%: -348/-250/-330
research 0%: 260/236/23
gold research 0%: 391/600/250
prod: 499/538/145
food: 463/432/334
pop: 12M/10M/7M
Town 9/10/7
Village 17/27/12
Hamlet 20/7/9
Cottage 1/5/10
Farm 62/43/30
Workshop 9/5/3
Wind-/Watermill 8/2/18
Mine 48/51/22
Plantation 14/18/14

Doshin is having 4 vassals, which gives him additional happy but more land and diplo hits with the remaining ais. Doshin is not having rep+merk, which is noted quite heavily in research, money and prod (missing free engineers). also the smaller cities explain the lesser prod.

this is quite insteresting, because it clearly shows the relation between tech/money/prod and pop: the earlier you have lots and big cities the earlier everything spirals up (so grow, grow, grow...)

 

[vranasm]

hmm well I think I totally mismanaged the empire here continued to 100 AD and while i took some more land, I am far away from having any good infra and the bpt's you guys throw around 500 AD (like 1500 bpt??/ WTH?)

didn't have much more time to play up to 500 AD, but seems to me like I miss there something truly important

 

[Doshin]

@vranasm

Hope you don't mind receiving feedback from a mere 800'er.

Settling just two cities puts a lot of stress on your core, because these two cities then have to build/chop/whip units to enable your expansion, and they can't take a breather to build infrastructure. Further, with just two cities, it's hard to do things like grow Cottages in the capital, which comes back to bite when Bureaucracy comes in.

It looks to me like you're lacking some key buildings, most notably, Forges and Libraries (not even in your capital ). An Academy is worthwhile too in such a long game, where you'll presumably have a Bureau/Oxford capital pushing your research for a very long time. But again, it's hard to breed a Great Scientist with just two cities, since you need those citizens to work tiles.

Finally, snaaty, GKey, and I all managed to take Civil Service as our free tech from the Oracle. Gandhi went for this fairly early in your game (1600 BC: Gkey and I would have lost the wonder, snaaty still would have built it). This proved to be a tremendous boost in all three of our games.

From your latest save, I would look to build some Forges and Libraries in your major cities. Try to capture Washington ASAP: it's a really nice city, and after you settle two-three island cities, it will be a huge money earner for your economy. And don't build any more Jewish Monasteries or Temples, unless you plan to build the AP yourself (if you attack Lincoln, a Hindu Mansa and Darius are left as the two remaining powers).

 

[vranasm]

well after having really bad sleep over this....

you are of course right. I think biggest problem here comes from the fact that it's 1 AD and I still don't have academy in capital, which is tons of bpt since thanks to capture gold I didn't have many turns at 0% slider.

I think what should I have done is whip library in city 2 which totally lacks production anyway and run 2 scientists after it produced couple of HA's.

I think I played first 90 turns in too much way... I kinda think I will replay the whole thing with more micro.

It's true I didn't went for Oracle at all, not sure why .

As per current situation of the save... Washington has LB's+pikes (engineering), MM has LB's too.... it's basically game over for any more rushes beyond finishing Peter....

it's like "WTH? 1 AD 3 AI's LB's and washington engineering????"... it's so unfair

What I like is that I was really really efficient in the HA warfare . (grrr that march HA lost yesterday on 80% odds!)

I could maybe replay from the 575 BC save going Peter, Wash, Izzy to see if I can stop Wash from getting such ridiculous Eng date...

Not sure if my plan calendar, CS, Machinery, Guilds is good/bad from the 575 save, but I really think the problem of the save is much sooner.

 

[GKey]

I'd suggest workersteal and rex more aggressively when you replay this. Mine bpt came from ~15 very early cottages. I think same could be said about Doshin's and Snaaty's games. Good luck!

 

[GKey]

Let's talk about overflow?

I am using it extensively, yet often encounter confusing cases.

For example:
With forge and OR 1 pop whip gives 45 (if we whip building). I want 2 pop whip monastery (60) with max overflow.

Spoiler :

In order to accumulate max overflow from from 2 pop whipping monastery we want to invest 14 in it. If we put 15 hammers into monastery it will become 1 pop whip, right?

Nope!

Spoiler :

Monastery has 15 invested, yet it is 2 pop whip! And indeed we will get 37 overflow! Why? And why 37?