another hof spacerace start

[vranasm]

@snaaty

thanks for some pointers, really appreciated.

you're right I didn't do good job with MM capital growth. the problem here comes with the fact that both helper cities don't have much good food tiles for themself (that's btw one of things your game really lacks - strong city 2) and I didn't want to stagnate them on gold tile like in my attempt I didn't post

I wonder if I should go for another worker from Peter I have slight suspicion about that horse tile between his capital and city 2.

I agree with plan regards library and math, in my save I already switched into math. Library was planned in city 2 with chops from forests. The pigs city lacks totally production and growing to 6 will take a lot of time (and I have yet to switch into slavery if i remember right), but as I understand you the timing is not critical here since I have to beat only Oracle city

edit:

general question... how much you (all) would whip the capital after HBR? I didn't whip it much in my attempt I didn't post and kinda think if this wasn't mistake... Seems to me like with calendar etc. we have tons of potential for like 15 happy cap come 1AD and the problem here is to grow cap there.

 

[GKey]

Looks promising!

Definitely switch capital to mass growth, when you are not making settlers. If the question is which city to starve - starve Shanghai (it's only job for this city, really mediocre until size 10 and even then not that good until Biology, but right now it's decent helper). Settle helpers to the west and south, I'd recommend secure eastern copper site though, or Darius will do. I have settled southern helper a bit late and regret this.

Oracle: I got such a good tech rate, was considering skip Oracle completely, Calendar ASAP is more needed then anything else here. Will free you from any happiness problems for very long time and make your southern and eastern cities blossom.

Capital needs library - not granary: you are currently short on happy, don't have slavery and city is going to be busy with settlers for next 10-20 turns anyway.

I whipped HAs in every city at least twice (with regret). If you can get sufficient force without much whips - go for it. As you noted we are food poor - commerce reach - worst combo for whips.

@Snaaty I don't have much time to play right now. Currently struggling at 100AD. Does not look any better then previous try btw.

EDIT:I had revised my tech path in retry: Not going Mus route at all (can be teched in 1 turn later on), after calendar went MC and directly to education. Not so good - cities need to grow to whip 5 unis (spread religion with OR there is highest priority, my cities got infected by confu ). Then theology-DR (AP-UoS-SM), Gulds-Banking and get Representation either by teching or through the Mids (trade for maps and settle stone as soon as possible, I'd DoW Mansa for stone in Timbuktu, but he got longbows very very early) only then go for Music.

 

[vranasm]

ok played to 1280 BC and finished the Oracle->CS thingy now

it's another good crossroad imo. I think it's obvious I want to finish HBR now and then hunting+archery.

no AI has alpha.

I got greedy last turn where I captured 2 fast workers, but ghandi had there archer which sniped me :-(. Shame really.

Didn't left many forests :-(.

biggest question is revolt to bureau now since it will cost 1 turn of anarchy, but I think I should do. ideal would be to pair with HR, but no AI has alpha etc.

running 2 scientists for 6 turns which is neat.

edit:
big question starts to form... which order of close 4 AI's I should take when breaking out with HA's? Russia->US->Spain->India or better start with India?

 

[GKey]

Triple civic switch (Buro+Slavery+HR) will take 2 turns of anarchy anyway, no point to delay Buro+Slavery switch.

Hopefully AI can get alpha any turn now, I'd go for HBR, hoping to trade for fishing-sailing and tech Calendar after that. What's next? Currency-MC may be, or Music if see AI going that route, depends on tech trade screen.

Try and get libraries and cottages in cities to get max from 100% slider with gold from upcoming conquest. I'd suggest avoid whips unless really necessary. Grow cities, preparing to get HA's out fast once HBR is in.

 

[vranasm]

Triple civic switch (Buro+Slavery+HR) will take 2 turns of anarchy anyway, no point to delay Buro+Slavery switch.

Hopefully AI can get alpha any turn now, I'd go for HBR, hoping to trade for fishing-sailing and tech Calendar after that. What's next? Currency-MC may be, or Music if see AI going that route, depends on tech trade screen.

Try and get libraries and cottages in cities to get max from 100% slider with gold from upcoming conquest. I'd suggest avoid whips unless really necessary. Grow cities, preparing to get HA's out fast once HBR is in.

I am already in slavery -() I switched when settling city 5 was on move. If it would be about Buro+Slavery switch it would be easier decision .

I plan to generally follow your tech plan... that Calendar will be here killer. lack of sailing is problematic and lack of trading partners .

My general plan regarding HA's is that I will most probably whip-kill the city 3 and sugar city.
the pigs city will provide at least 1 HA with chops (I will probably not finish the rax there).
West city (cows, couple hills) will probably not be whipped and I am crossing fingers I will get it to reasonable size and work cows, grass hill, plains hill to have something like 11+ hammers (HA every 4th/5th turn).
capital should not whipped too...

I will have to review the production after archery a bit too... since I want to start the warfare with cca 6-8 HA's the soonest it can come.

One thing I am not so sure if the sugar city, city 3 should put OF from HA's into chariots or not.
The problem here is that city 3 has no natural production and putting OF into HA will block good whip (2-pop) after regrowth - so maybe chariots OF?
sugar city has some strong natural production (horses size 3, GH size 4) so there I could imagine to OF into HA

Actually seems to me that sugar has strongest regrowth potential out of all cities (except capital). it is 3F+4F+4F - 2x 2F size 2 = 7F which is something like 2 (or 3) turns to grow 2->3 and horses are food neutral tile. i think it will have strong 4->2 whip cycle.

not sure about stables... thinking about putting it into capital.

regards libraries... I have 2. Capital and pigs... I don't think city 2, 3, sugar needs libraries since they definitely won't work cottages in future after calendar. That's why I used monuments there and didn't wait for libs.

 

[vranasm]

progressed to 225 BC and I am afraid it wasn't very good turnset :-(

Finished teching paper this turn. Ai's are tough even without feud.

I stuck in the war against Ghandi and thus he had to be my first target, he proved to be well prepared and the war really really slowed me.

Peter proved to be very tough too :-( took only 2 cities with some heavy attrition.
Right now took 2 cities from Lincoln (his mainland ones, he has some offshore) and I think I should take the peace offer since it gives compass and world map.

I plan naturally to attack Spain now.

The worst news is that Ghandi passaled to Darius which is big !@#!@^#$&!$*@!75$ making me almost want to replay from the DoW turn of Ghandi without dowing him (it is basically the turn where I finish oracle) and go peter instead of Ghandi.

I have settler on galley but I can't get it out since ghandi nor mansa will open borders and I can't DoW any of those 2.

I could switch into HR+OR and religion since I have GA from Music, maybe it's good point to launch GA? I have nothing prepared regarding GPP's...

Ghandi even didn't built me the shrine in delhi...

Due to all the micro I am affraid I lost somewhere direction...

 

[GKey]

500 AD

Tried my best with micro yet it does not look that good.

• Got Education 425BC, cool huh? Not really! No population to whip universities, got Oxford on exactly same turn 50AD as previous try! Either I really did some serious magic then or (more likely) screwed something now.
  
• Tried to squeeze more settlers earlier - fail again. Same 4 islands settled.
  
• Tech situation, got DR by trade 2 turns of research shaved, but previously I already had Steel and Astro in at 500AD. Now I went Corporations route instead, feels slow.
  
• Positive: Only 1 GM wasted to keep 100% slider, rest gold came from wonders. More infra - not that many though. 28 cities instead of 26 - only due to earlier DoW on Mansa.
  

Questions:

Research overflow. Can you lose it? I am toying with it during last turns when bpt finally skyrocket. Say I make 1500. If I have 1000 oveflow and 1 turn tech Optics - next overflow will be 900? I will lose , right?

That's the reason for Democracy this turn. Researching something cheap may cause lose overflow.

Location of Versailles. Is it viable to build it on island? Say here:

Spoiler :

Does it make any sense? Or will it be complete waste due to overseas maintenance will kick in anyway? Our mainland is pretty compact, building Versailles in say Timbuktu or New York will net some 10-15 pert turn...

Courthouses and Banks. The plan is to finish Corporations and have 5 banks ready in 2 turns, so I start on Wall Street in Delhi ASAP. But you can see me building banks in more then 5 cities. The reason for that - screeny from couple turns ago:

Spoiler :

I am losing 15 per turn from not having bank in this city. And you could see the same in 4 more cities during 5 turns. That's 300 lost.

Late game, you shouldn't be running Merchants in more than a few cities:
-the 5 cities with Banks MAYBE (reason being, you should have better science multipliers overall). It's rarely worth adding the Grocer so that 100% gold multiplier doesn't happen a lot.
-the WS city (200% multiplier)
-GP farms for trade missions (GMs have higher beaker output through gold at large city sizes)

I feel disagreeing

We will run merchants for GM's, means we will lose per turn by not having banks, grocers, markets in key cities.
More on that, despite wonder fail gold and GM's trade missions, we are entering corps spread era. Slider will go down significantly. Having 100% multipliers will start been profitable in a few turns! OTOH Superconductors for labs and 100% multiplier will come by the game end. I don't understand why not get banks asap, so we can run merchants with 100% multiplier right now.

Having Courthouses in cities, where corps will spread is absolutely must, but these cities are going to run merchants with excess food and having banks there is viable too. Opinions are most welcome!.

Civics. No idea, when to switch into cast and when to switch back into slavery. Execs are going to be whipped. Beeline Communism after Sushi? We need cast to run specs though. The decision of what to chose and when is really hard to make.

 

[GKey]

@Vranasm
So you went Mus route, like I did. That was bad choice on my part. What did Mansa ask you for? Whatever it was I'd give it to him, becoming his worst enemy is really PITA here.
Fine! Get Construction in 2 turns yourself and field cats+phants. Then you will see no reason to stop warring.

Capital is in a good shape and Xian is a power house (I've made cottages instead of farms there and city was struggling with production for quite long), looks good!

I don't get how Darius could take vassal who was at war with you without declaring on you. Did you make peace with Gandhi and then he peace vassaled? Also even been Mansa's worst enemy you should have OB with him? Did he cancel it? I'd consider gifting him something to become his friend again.

The micro from your previous save was uneasy task indeed. Pool out enough production while maintain decent tech rate. IMO HA's were top priority, but once you get some 12-15 - depending on RNG, get construction ASAP. HA wars are very expensive hammer wise at this stage of the game.

If you feel like retry again, welcome to the club! OTOH your game is in OK shape IMO. Few obstacles are curable. Darius will not trade that much with you due his low WFYBTA. If making him friendly is possible keep peace. Otherwise you can declare on him to get rid of Gandhi and get that copper site he stole from you.

Good luck!

 

[vranasm]

I did there a mistake taking peace with Ghandi before finishing on continent and he then passaled.

I wanted to secure music GA before Mansa gets there since I saw him going the route.

I tried yesterday with launching GA switching civics and religion to juda and actually Mansa got to cautios, so I think that's most probably best way to go.

Mansa wanted something like metal casting and I just won't allow AI's got that route if I can avoid it.

will look into the construction now you point out! i still want to use the HA's though...

What bothers me is that everyone has island cities now :-( will be pita to micro the warfare over islands.


really thinking about replaying from 1320 BC... I guess it's not against the spirit of playing the map.

 

[vranasm]

hmm had some time to play up to 25 BC...

I did launch the GA even if I am building MoM in parallel it's probably mistake, but I somehow needed the GA imo now.

I captured all Izzy cities on main continent now, start to form WE's+cats stack near mansa borders (will need tons of turns though...like 5-6 to have there 2-3 WE's+cats) will move Ha's after healing towards Mansa too.

Washington will build couple of galleys and then probably WE's to swipe some island cities probably from Lincoln.

Tech path was a bit questionable, but I am storming towards engineering. Empire starts to be big and i need the movement bonus.

I think I will not endanger the 1500 bpt even 500 bpt will be miracle, but let's see .

 

[Snaaty]

@ gkey:

your empire in your new game is in great shape, imho. right now it seems similar in overall research output to your first try, but they are different really:

- you have 2m less pop in your new game and lots of ifra more (really lots, almost 40 monatries and temples in totall compared to 15 in your first try). we are talking about more then 2000 hammers here
- wait till your cities grow to the same size and you will see the difference of potential
- you conquered faster which will snowball into the next advantage: your new cities will start to contribute faster (more cities and less pop is even more potential)
- in your first game, your empire is dedicated to max. research (480 prod), in your second game, your empire is maxed towards production, still you have already a bit more research in your second game (560 prod), meaning your overall prod. 25% higher, which is a lot.
- at 0% research, you are making close to 550 gold in your second game, your first one only less then 400 gold, so your saving rate is also close to 40% higer
- no mentioning that you did all this without using up your GM´s

-> same research, 25% more prod, 40% more gold, 6k gold more in store (GMs)... ...and your first game was already very, very good... ...you did very well here, i dont really see any reason to complain (i know that after a certain point, you easily fall into the trap of perfectionism, happens to me also, but imho, this game now is that strong that whatever you do, you will only archieve minor improvement, if at all)

i would rate this game quite a bit stronger then mine (your first game i would have rate a bit weaker then mine), although prod,gold,research is basically the same because of 5 reason:

- earlier capture of ai cities
- killing the ais earlier, you managed to stop them from settling the islands and they are dead now (not only exiled to the islands, like in my game)
- faster spreading to the islands
- more key wonders (i lost on pant, mids, glib, notre...)
- 2 shrines

mainly having more usefull cities earlier and therefore faster access to the islands, backed with more happy (not getting notre will really bite me later) will turn into BIG assets within the next 20 turns already...

...

@ vranasm:

i will have a look at your game later

 

[GKey]

@ Vranasm it's all rng dependable of cause but engi is something all AI's will get soon, so you can trade for it IMO (and Mansa too btw, so may be get couple maces in your stuck against him).

 

[kossin]

I feel disagreeing

We will run merchants for GM's, means we will lose per turn by not having banks, grocers, markets in key cities.
More on that, despite wonder fail gold and GM's trade missions, we are entering corps spread era. Slider will go down significantly. Having 100% multipliers will start been profitable in a few turns! OTOH Superconductors for labs and 100% multiplier will come by the game end. I don't understand why not get banks asap, so we can run merchants with 100% multiplier right now.

You may be overestimating the amount of GMs you'll get and the quantity of cities that will get them.

Once you're running 100% research without gold loss, what's the point of more merchants? Seeing that you're only losing 200 gpt at this point, how much +/- gpt would you be getting if you switched those builds to wealth instead? (not that you're done building infra)

 

[GKey]

...

Once you're running 100% research without gold loss, what's the point of more merchants?

That's exactly my point of concern, Kossin!
For 100% research slider without gold loss we can either:

Build wealth and then we can run scientists with 75% multipliers

or

Run merchants with 100% multipliers, so we can build research instead.

Theoretically 2nd option is 25% better, or am I missing something?
We willing to spend 200 on +25% university, why not spend it on +50% bank?

Of cause, we will swap merchants with scientists when possible, but this is not going to happen any soon. Spreading 2 corporations into some 40+ cities will take quite long and profit from corp will kick in ~10 turns after spreading it. I expect some 40-50 turns of heavy deficit.

Snaaty, I had some sort of changes list in my mind, when replayed this turn set and expected some dramatic results. Situation is not bad, definitely, but not as good as expected. Yep, it seem I fall into perfectionism trap. Thanks for your analysis!

What about building Versailles on island? Good/bad/may be? And where is Doshin?

 

[GKey]

Played a bit more.

Crazy stuff indeed. 1 Turn Sci Meth 600AD?

Spoiler :

20 monasteries will get obsolete (and GLib):

Spoiler :

Yep -60 -230 And that despite 3 courthouses finished on this turn. Could be worse I guess.

 

[Snaaty]

@ gkey:

- i started versailles in washinton, because on the islands i think it simply would take too long (in washinton it is some 15 turns and the basic infra is already there). on any island it will take a lot longer (untill after mining) and any infra is lacking, so each turn of delay means loosing money and my thinking was that later we have enough money, we need it right now

- you dont loose research when generating research ov, it simply stacks if you get more from various techs (at least im quite sure of that)

- merchants under rep get 3 gold but also 3 beakers, a scientist gets 6 beakers. i guess this answers your question (sometimes we simply dont see the obvious) -> running scientits only needs 1 type of multiplier and you get the doulbe base ammount to multiply, so it will always be stronger to build money and to have the research slider up at 100%. AND lowering the research slider goes for all cities, meaning your capital under bureau with oxford and academy will also be hit by lowering the slider and we are talking here of around 60 beakers each 10% you lower the slider from the capital alone
these 2 facts combined i guess skipping any money buildings you dont need and fully focussing on research buildings is best

 

[GKey]

I did not mean to lower slider, of cause not.

Simple example: city with 75% and 100% multipliers:, having say 20 production after modifiers:

we run 2 scientists and build wealth: 12 base converted into 12*1.75=21 and 20.

41

we run 2 merchants and build research: 6 base converted into 6*1.75=10.5 and 6*2=12 and 20

42.5

More specs we run - the more significant difference.

So, what I meant, we don't need to build wealth to keep slider at 100%, we can run merchants instead!

You are absolutely right about this:

running scientists only needs 1 type of multiplier

I missed this point. This indeed makes a difference, but from my experience grocers will be absolutely must for 4 and markets for happy, so it comes to 200 for banks, which could be 200.

Edit: also GM's are better for us - each one can fuel 100% slider for 3-5 turns, while GS's will be needed only for golden age and we will get one from Physics.

 

[vranasm]

oh well really not sure if I should really post mine saves, but played to 640 AD obviously far behind Gkey's save

can whip OU in capital for 6 pop.

Didn't finish any AI yet :-( they escaped to islands... what is worse Mansa has Nationalism :-( if I will miss the GA from it... well let's say it will complicate matters.

I could go for lib->nat now, but not sure about it.

Right now at war with Russia (they got bribed by Elisabeth) and again they are on island with last 2 cities... but I will ship there troops, have 2 galleys ready for maces

What I would like is finish Ghandi but that would mean war with persia...which is dangerous move because they have Guilds now.

oh well . If this would be "normal" game I would claim it won and don't bother with it . This emphasis on micro is killing all my fun with the game.

 

[Doshin]

@GKey

Versailles costs 800 , or 264 when you factor in all the possible pre-industrial era bonuses (Marble, Organized Religion, Industrious trait, Forge, etc.). I think it's just too slow to build it on an island... even if you manage to get everything set up in place, you'll need the equivalent of 9 Forests to chop out the wonder.

A Market, Grocer, and a Bank offer a 100% boost to whereas a Library, University, and Observatory only offer a 75% boost to . If you can build the Market/Grocer/Bank combo without sacrificing other improvements, then presumably it is preferable to run Merchants in these cities. The trouble is that these cities could be building other things that would contribute to your empire: missionaries, executives, Settlers, Work Boats, Factories... etc. As usual, it is a balancing act. 6 Banks are needed for Wall Street. But after that? Well, generally speaking, I think a new city is worth more in terms of gold/research than a 7th or 8th Bank. By the time your colonization and corporation spread days are done, you should be closing in on the end of the game.

The benefits of mass generating Great Merchants are obvious: you gain much greater mid-game research potential, and short-term gains have a habit of snowballing, which I see you doing to great effect. The big downside, as I see it, is that too many trade missions will put the final Golden Age at risk, if you're not careful.

I probably shouldn't offer advice with regards to Great People. I only founded Mining Inc. when I discovered Fusion.

 

[kossin]

I did not mean to lower slider, of cause not.

Simple example: city with 75% and 100% multipliers:, having say 20 production after modifiers:

we run 2 scientists and build wealth: 12 base converted into 12*1.75=21 and 20.

41

we run 2 merchants and build research: 6 base converted into 6*1.75=10.5 and 6*2=12 and 20

42.5

More specs we run - the more significant difference.

So, what I meant, we don't need to build wealth to keep slider at 100%, we can run merchants instead!

You are absolutely right about this:



I missed this point. This indeed makes a difference, but from my experience grocers will be absolutely must for 4 and markets for happy, so it comes to 200 for banks, which could be 200.

Edit: also GM's are better for us - each one can fuel 100% slider for 3-5 turns, while GS's will be needed only for golden age and we will get one from Physics.

So you get 1.5 extra from having spent 200H (bank), 150H (grocer). Market I consider justifiable.
350/1.5 = 234t ROI.

EDIT: some early banks in select cities are great nonetheless.