April 2021 Developer Livestream Discussion

[Wielki Hegemon]

This video has left me deflated, confirming the worst case scenario that the earlier video highlighted the lion's share of substantial changes to Civ design (enumerating a change to spawn bias, as they did for Australia, as a balance change is a cop out).
However I kind of expected that. What has left me more disappointed is the lack of any coherent thought underneath the changes they made, which makes me reconsider my initial enthusiasm for the April update video.
They justified their Poland change by stating that Poland has no innate bonus to getting a religion. That totally ignores that Poland can slot Revelation early and can reliably secure a religion.They overlooked the fact that the relics bonuses are an odd fit for Poland's playstyle and that the Sukienne is pretty much outclassed by all other trade abilities and it requires you to invest production into a building.
I'm annoyed by the change they made to Kongo because directly before introducing it they discussed how faith economy has become more central to the game the more additions have been made through expansions. When comparing Kongo to Khmer - who I think were on the same tier prior to this patch - the addition of +1 faith per relic is measly. Its especially disappointing as Kongo were the first asymmetrically designed Civ and they feel outright neglected in comparison to all those who have followed them (full disclosure, Kongo stan).
I'd really hoped this balance patch might have compressed the tiers which Civs currently occupy on power rankings. Prior to their buffs I think Maya represented an optimal of Civ design. Very powerful if executed well but also capable of faring adequately if map generation didnt align. I think the game probably benefits from having challenging Civs which will invariably occupy the lower tiers when compared to overpowered and easy to play Civs.
But there doesn't seem to have been a great deal of holistic thought at play in this patch.
Last observation - in response to a question from the chat Carl from Firaxis went out of his way to emphasise that balancing is undertaken with a view to both single player and multiplayer play. This struck me as deluded or disingenuous as it should be really apparent from how the community has played the game in the last 4 years that the Civs in this game have never been well balanced for multiplayer

A few days ago a posted a message here saying I would prefer a few well-reworked Civs like Spain or Khmer than small changes for 20 Civs because I was suspecting the things will go in that direction. Someone answered we will get both. That was a common expectation not only here. And well we didn't get both. Still, I am disappointed too.
As for balancing for multiplayer. Actually, it is really hard to ballance the single-player game with over 50 Civs for multiplayer. Either you focus on balancing Civs at the cost of design space for the single-player experience, or you focus on unique gameplay the Civ may offer for a single-player game at the cost of power creep and multiplayer issues. It is not Carls fault, and we shouldn't expect the impossible from him. That's the way it works. At least in multiplayer, you can always ban OP Civs or the weakest ones.

 

[CromulentRomulan]

The relic bonus is probably just a nod to Jadwiga being made a saint by the Catholic Church, not to mention she has relics displayed today in Poland that were attached to her.

I think my point stands that Khmer Canada Spain and Mapuche all demonstrate leader abilities being reworked. The Mapuche is maybe the best example of a leader ability that was closer to a thematic nod than a viable gameplay addition receiving some attention.

They get +1 faith for artifacts and sculptures as well, not just relics which is helpful.

Of the changes announced to Civs gaining more yields (for faith specifically the Khmer, Georgia and Scythia [!!!]) (or general increases to aspects that previously yielded things, as in the case of Spain) +1 faith to either is paltry bordering on pathetics especially when the Kongo is widely acknowledged as having a faith economy problem.

The longer the Kongo change is dwelt upon the worse it gets. Khmer's martyr missionaries were revised due to an inherent unreliability to triggering them. Kongo gets so little out of Mvemba's Religious Convert due to many religious beliefs being linked to Holy Site buildings. Like everything else with the New Frontier Pass with this update it feels like they got started on substantial revisions and then ran out of time so rushed the rest

 

[CromulentRomulan]

It is not Carls fault, and we shouldn't expect the impossible from him. That's the way it works. At least in multiplayer, you can always ban OP Civs or the weakest ones.

You're correct, I wouldn't blame Carl for not attaining something that is not possible but I just felt it was incongruent for him to emphasise that the balance changes took into consideration the multiplayer and singleplayer experience. In my mind were remarks from Potato McWhiskey who in his review of the April update video emphasised that Carl had reached out to him (and presumably other Civ content creators) in recent months. McWhiskey did so as a way of commending Carl on doing due diligence and noting Carl as a Civ gamer in addition to designer. I'd have figured a Civ gamer would be aware of how CPL approached the imbalances (an approach I don't like but whose existence is evidence of the lack of balance inherent to the games design of Civs)

Either you focus on balancing Civs at the cost of design space for the single-player experience, or you focus on unique gameplay the Civ may offer for a single-player game at the cost of power creep and multiplayer issues.

Yeah maybe I want something from Civ that it cannot offer. I've been getting into Twilight Imperium. Its a really different take on 4X which I don't know could translate to a video game of a historical development genre of Civ. But the way in which its factions are very distinct while also remaining viable in competitive play is something I wish that Civ strived for a bit

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

A few days ago a posted a message here saying I would prefer a few well-reworked Civs like Spain or Khmer than small changes for 20 Civs because I was suspecting the things will go in that direction. Someone answered we will get both. That was a common expectation not only here. And well we didn't get both. Still, I am disappointed too.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were holding major reworks as a surprise for tomorrow. At least that's what I'm hoping in the case of Scotland.

I think my point stands that Khmer Canada Spain and Mapuche all demonstrate leader abilities being reworked. The Mapuche is maybe the best example of a leader ability that was closer to a thematic nod than a viable gameplay addition receiving some attention.

I men I agree with you that it would help if there was something more thematic in their design. A part of me wishes that she got the old Prasat's ability with Martyr missionaries.

Of the changes announced to Civs gaining more yields (for faith specifically the Khmer, Georgia and Scythia [!!!]) (or general increases to aspects that previously yielded things, as in the case of Spain) +1 faith to either is paltry bordering on pathetics especially when the Kongo is widely acknowledged as having a faith economy problem.

The longer the Kongo change is dwelt upon the worse it gets. Khmer's martyr missionaries were revised due to an inherent unreliability to triggering them. Kongo gets so little out of Mvemba's Religious Convert due to many religious beliefs being linked to Holy Site buildings. Like everything else with the New Frontier Pass with this update it feels like they got started on substantial revisions and then ran out of time so rushed the rest

It's still better then what they had before, and I didn't think that Kongo needed many buffs to begin with.

 

[Birch617]

I was kinda dissapointed while looking at the Livestream, in my mind i did tough that more civs would get major reworks, but then i realize that wasn't realistic, like others game where they rework old characters to feel more in line with new ones, and that takes a lot of times, so im glad that some of the weaker civ got majors reworks (Spain,Khmer and Georgia) and while i'm dissapointed in Korea's ability staying the same i understand that it would take a lot of time to give every old civ the same kind of attention as the Khmer got, so i hope that if we get a second season pass or something in those line, to get another major civ rework pack.
Also keep in mind that they didn't show everything today at stream, so hoping for some pleasent surprises tomorrow.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Are they adding a shared leader for Netherlands and France??

Only if England gets the ability to teleport away from German units leaving their allies behind to cover their retreat and die

And then make it seen heroic.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Sad Korean noises...
CA, is NOT separate from its UD.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

Kongo gets so little out of Mvemba's Religious Convert due to many religious beliefs being linked to Holy Site buildings.

Well, the idea with Kongo is that you pick a religion to spread to your lands that has the best beliefs for you, so not ones that depend on holy site buildings. You may have to work a bit for that, but that's the whole idea behind asymmetric civs.

 

[Jeppetto]

Noticed people talking about Atlantis. Where did that came from?

 

[Kwami]

Noticed people talking about Atlantis. Where did that came from?

The icon for the Huge TSL Earth map in the preview video last week had Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean. Then, someone asked about it at the end of today's stream.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Sad Korean noises...
CA, is NOT separate from its UD.

And I thought it was guaranteed to be that way. To be fair, the buff to Korea is very minor, it shouldn't change the civ a lot

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And I thought it was guaranteed to be that way. To be fair, the buff to Korea is very minor, it shouldn't change the civ a lot

I think the problem is most people wanted a whole new civ ability and not one just tied to the Seowon.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I think the problem is most people wanted a whole new civ ability and not one just tied to the Seowon.

I know, that is what I want. I suggested lowering the starting adjacency bonus of the Seowon, making the additional science from mines included in the Seowon's adjacency bonus so it could use Rationalism, and then Korea can have another civ ability.

 

[tedhebert]

People think the Maya are weak, but this is not true. With a free worker and production buff, they are now even stronger.

they are and will be still weak on map sizes greater than standard.

That's true. That's why I am always saying the 6 title buff should scale on larger maps.

I like the Maya change. And Maya Civ.

The problem with Maya is not, in my mind, related to map size. The problem is NOT knowing the layout of the map before plopping your capital. Since everything after that is directly tributary to the map around the capital, it makes Maya completely subject to RNG. I really dislike that you'll
probably have to reroll your start all the time when you play them. I feel maya should have at least 12 tiles radius vision at turn 1 (not all game long, just at turn 1) so that you are allowed to make an intelligent decision on capital city placement.

 

[Leucarum]

I like the Maya change. And Maya Civ.

The problem with Maya is not, in my mind, related to map size. The problem is NOT knowing the layout of the map before plopping your capital. Since everything after that is directly tributary to the map around the capital, it makes Maya completely subject to RNG. I really dislike that you'll
probably have to reroll your start all the time when you play them. I feel maya should have at least 12 tiles radius vision at turn 1 (not all game long, just at turn 1) so that you are allowed to make an intelligent decision on capital city placement.

Yup, Maya had a lot of RNG, would you find out that your immediate land was a snakey corridor surrounded by oceans or would you have a bounty waiting for you? Particularly in MP games that randomness really puts me off picking Maya. While a lot of that will still be there at least they won't be as slow to develop.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

You're correct, I wouldn't blame Carl for not attaining something that is not possible but I just felt it was incongruent for him to emphasise that the balance changes took into consideration the multiplayer and singleplayer experience. In my mind were remarks from Potato McWhiskey who in his review of the April update video emphasised that Carl had reached out to him (and presumably other Civ content creators) in recent months. McWhiskey did so as a way of commending Carl on doing due diligence and noting Carl as a Civ gamer in addition to designer. I'd have figured a Civ gamer would be aware of how CPL approached the imbalances (an approach I don't like but whose existence is evidence of the lack of balance inherent to the games design of Civs)
Yeah maybe I want something from Civ that it cannot offer. I've been getting into Twilight Imperium. Its a really different take on 4X which I don't know could translate to a video game of a historical development genre of Civ. But the way in which its factions are very distinct while also remaining viable in competitive play is something I wish that Civ strived for a bit

Twilight Imperium is an epic game
It is epic also because millions of players didn't spend millions of hours posting tier lists, guides, exploits, demanding nerfs, and buffs from a decomposed into the prime factors mechanics. Twilight Imperium is one of those games that was not chewed by the Internet and modern mass audience. Civ is in the middle of it I am afraid.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Yes, China (both leaders) gets a free Eureka AND Inspiration from the same era as the wonder, every time they finish building a wonder.

We already knew this from the reveal video, though...

 

[Phoenix1595]

Very interesting changes. I’m happy with the Nubia nerf and Maya buff to help balance them out. I’m undecided on Russia— I agree on the nerfs to some extent, but Grand Embassy should have been addressed.

I was hoping England would have been de-nerfed, and some of the vanilla civs like Rome and Egypt could really use a polish, in light of the newer civs. I am scared for Scotland. Waiting with anticipation for the patch notes!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I know, that is what I want. I suggested lowering the starting adjacency bonus of the Seowon, making the additional science from mines included in the Seowon's adjacency bonus so it could use Rationalism, and then Korea can have another civ ability.

Oh I think I misread the way you said it. I thought you meant the ability was probably guaranteed to stay similar to what it was.
It was probably a long shot but I thought it might be cool if they reworked the Seowon to be a campus replacement that yielded culture instead.

Twilight Imperium is an epic game
It is epic also because millions of players didn't spend millions of hours posting tier lists, guides, exploits, demanding nerfs, and buffs from a decomposed into the prime factors mechanics. Twilight Imperium is one of those games that was not chewed by the Internet and modern mass audience. Civ is in the middle of it I am afraid.

There's also a very reduced number of factions compared to 50 different civs and 54 leaders. That being said the one thing I think would translate well from Twilight Imperium to Civ is the way the Galactic Council worked which could replicate how a World Congress could act. Whoever has the most diplomatic victory points, or whoever gets the most votes for the next session, can choose the proposals for the next session. Also it would be interesting if some things were deemed permanent.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I like the Maya change. And Maya Civ.

The problem with Maya is not, in my mind, related to map size. The problem is NOT knowing the layout of the map before plopping your capital. Since everything after that is directly tributary to the map around the capital, it makes Maya completely subject to RNG. I really dislike that you'll
probably have to reroll your start all the time when you play them. I feel maya should have at least 12 tiles radius vision at turn 1 (not all game long, just at turn 1) so that you are allowed to make an intelligent decision on capital city placement.

Well, it is all about adapting to the situation. The only real problem is the sea, or being close to the map border and tundra. It is not too annoying for me to be honest. I kinda like it, it is challenging. But maybe it's just me.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I know, that is what I want. I suggested lowering the starting adjacency bonus of the Seowon, making the additional science from mines included in the Seowon's adjacency bonus so it could use Rationalism, and then Korea can have another civ ability.

Captain America to Korea: take off that Seowon and what are you?
KOREA:
See this is why I find Korea lackluster. For Australia even if you disable UI you can still use AC but for Korea everything is centered around UD. Korea is one trick pony now.