Leader Pass: Rulers of the Sahara - 2/14 Developer Livestream Discussion

[Hellenism Salesman]

I found Gaul's district placement scheme frustrating rather than innovative

Ah, so I do know you well!

I'm more lenient with Vietnam, but as someone who can get thoroughly invested in district planning playing as Gaul hurt.

On the note of the pack, Sundiata feels so very rare in this pass as his ability reminds me of those of Gathering Storm. As a sucker for big yields (to use the family friendly term), Ptolemaic Cleo is quite satisfying in that department. I appreciate cool Appeal abilities too. Not sure what's Ptolemaic about her, but... okay. They had to make something with the abilities they had.

Ramses is not for me since he incentivizes chopping.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Ah, so I do know you well!

I'm more lenient with Vietnam, but as someone who can get thoroughly invested in district planning playing as Gaul hurt.

On the note of the pack, Sundiata feels so very rare in this pass as his ability reminds me of those of Gathering Storm. As a sucker for big yields (to use the family friendly term), Ptolemaic Cleo is quite satisfying in that department. I appreciate cool Appeal abilities too. Not sure what's Ptolemaic about her, but... okay. They had to make something with the abilities they had.

Ramses is not for me since he incentivizes chopping.

Yeah, I don't know how Ptolemaic it is either, but it certainly seems a more cohesively designed civ now.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Does anyone know what specific time this will be released?

All Leader Pass releases have been at 10am PT/ 1pm ET. While Pete neglected to mention a specific time I imagine it will follow suit.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Re: "what is Ptolemaic," I can answer a bit. I am not on the design side (so don't ask me about numbers and yields and things), but the historical synopsis I gave highlighted Egypt's wealth in terms of grain - its farmland made it tremendously wealthy as a Ptolemaic kingdom and later as a Roman possession.

 

[SecretWeapon]

Well that's not really particularly ptolomeic but if that's what the chose, fine i guess. It is what it is. Let's just pretend it's an abstraction of Ptolemeic monument work

 

[pokiehl]

Re: "what is Ptolemaic," I can answer a bit. I am not on the design side (so don't ask me about numbers and yields and things), but the historical synopsis I gave highlighted Egypt's wealth in terms of grain - its farmland made it tremendously wealthy as a Ptolemaic kingdom and later as a Roman possession.

I think the question comes up because that’s the exact same design space that regular Cleopatra occupies.

I’m certainly happy we got the Cleopatra persona, but I figured differentiating the two thematically would be challenging.

On the note of Ptolemies, I would be thrilled to see Ptolemy I Soter in the next civ game.

 

[Zaarin]

On the note of Ptolemies, I would be thrilled to see Ptolemy I Soter in the next civ game.

Leading Greece. Or Macedon. Or Diadochi Kingdoms. But not Egypt, please.

 

[pokiehl]

Leading Greece. Or Macedon. Or Diadochi Kingdoms. But not Egypt, please.

I disagree here; I think it would be nonsense to have a Ptolemy lead any of those (not sure what a faction called "Diadochi Kingdoms" would represent...) except Egypt.

 

[Zaarin]

I disagree here; I think it would be nonsense to have a Ptolemy lead any of those (not sure what a faction called "Diadochi Kingdoms" would represent...) except Egypt.

At least Cleopatra VII Philopater pretended to be Egyptian when it suited her politically; the rest of the Ptolemies treated the Egyptians with the utmost contempt. Ptolemy I Soter leading Egypt would be like Andrew Jackson leading the Creek.

 

[pokiehl]

At least Cleopatra VII Philopater pretended to be Egyptian when it suited her politically; the rest of the Ptolemies treated the Egyptians with the utmost contempt. Ptolemy I Soter leading Egypt would be like Andrew Jackson leading the Creek.

I'm not a professional historian by any means but I have never heard anything of the sort that the Ptolemies disrespected Egyptians to that degree. Even looking at something like Serapis at face value, one has the impression they did their best to meld traditions, not disregard Egyptian culture. Your comparison to Andrew Jackson seems really over the top and unwarranted.

I'm open to being wrong, of course. Can you provide me any links to this? I tried to google for it. I did come up with sources claiming the opposite (https://egyptianexpedition.org/arti...d-the-dionysiac-model-of-political-authority/). Even the Wikipedia page for Ptolemy mentions that he respected Egyptian cutlure.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm not a professional historian by any means but I have never heard anything of the sort that the Ptolemies disrespected Egyptians to that degree. Even looking at something like Serapis at face value, one has the impression they did their best to meld traditions, not disregard Egyptian culture.

The Ptolemies did indeed adopt what Egyptian traditions suited them--syncretizing a few gods (though that was par for the course with the Greeks) and claiming to be a god-king, for example. The Copts themselves, however, were second class citizens in Ptolemaic Egypt, which is why Cleopatra was able to appeal to them against her brother Ptolemy XIII.

I'm open to being wrong, of course. Can you provide me any links to this?

You can see it mentioned briefly here. You can ready more in Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra: A Life, which is an excellent book, I might add.

At any rate, I want no more Greeks leading Egypt, but of all the Greeks who did Cleopatra VII is the only one with any claim to lead Egypt IMO.

 

[Jkchart]

The Ptolemies did indeed adopt what Egyptian traditions suited them--syncretizing a few gods (though that was par for the course with the Greeks) and claiming to be a god-king, for example. The Copts themselves, however, were second class citizens in Ptolemaic Egypt, which is why Cleopatra was able to appeal to them against her brother Ptolemy XIII.


You can see it mentioned briefly here. You can ready more in Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra: A Life, which is an excellent book, I might add.

At any rate, I want no more Greeks leading Egypt, but of all the Greeks who did Cleopatra VII is the only one with any claim to lead Egypt IMO.

But those Greeks under Ptolemy did lead and control Egypt as their power base, never Greece, and most of their subjects were Egyptian (with a substantial Greek minority). Yeah, they weren't ethnically Egyptian, but to say they have no claim to lead "Egypt" is historically incorrect since the Ptolemies all tried to legitimize their rule over Egypt by calling themselves Pharaoh, and since Ptolemy II (so, most of the Ptolemaic Kingdom's history) would slowly start to adopt more Egyptian customs even if maintaining a lot of Hellenistic elements and refusing to fully integrate until Cleo at the end. They were a foreign family in charge of a foreign land, but were still leaders of it.

I think the larger issue here is that trying to maintain an "Egypt" civilization that tries to cover about 4,000 years of history is getting increasingly problematic and if they really want a Ptolemaic Egypt it should be it's own separate civilization in its entirety showcasing the fusion, rather than pull Kemet/true Ancient Egypt together with the Ptolemies. That would be a far more ideal solution, but I'm pretty sure it would be years before we get that divide and we will likely see Hellenic rulers over Egypt in the future.

 

[Zaarin]

But those Greeks under Ptolemy did lead and control Egypt as their power base, never Greece, and most of their subjects were Egyptian (with a substantial Greek minority). Yeah, they weren't ethnically Egyptian, but to say they have no claim to lead "Egypt" is historically incorrect since the Ptolemies all tried to legitimize their rule over Egypt by calling themselves Pharaoh, and since Ptolemy II (so, most of the Ptolemaic Kingdom's history) would slowly start to adopt more Egyptian customs even if maintaining a lot of Hellenistic elements and refusing to fully integrate until Cleo at the end. They were a foreign family in charge of a foreign land, but were still leaders of it.

I think the larger issue here is that trying to maintain an "Egypt" civilization that tries to cover about 4,000 years of history is getting increasingly problematic and if they really want a Ptolemaic Egypt it should be it's own separate civilization in its entirety showcasing the fusion, rather than pull Kemet/true Ancient Egypt together with the Ptolemies. That would be a far more ideal solution, but I'm pretty sure it would be years before we get that divide and we will likely see Hellenic rulers over Egypt in the future.

Yes--foreign being a key word here. With 4,000 years of native rule to choose from, choosing a Greek grows increasingly unappealing, and Cleopatra VII is the only Ptolemy who has a few extenuating circumstances in her favor--her pop culture presence, her brilliance, her big personality, and (IMO above all) her willingness to make the first concessions to the indigenous population in 300 years, however politically motivated. The Ptolemies "led" Egypt in the same sense Alexander "led" Egypt--or Persia or Babylon. tl;dr: Egypt shouldn't be led by a Ptolemy, but if it must be led by a Ptolemy it should be Cleopatra. Even so, Egypt has more native female rulers to choose from than any other ancient power, several of whom were excellent pharaohs without reference to sex.

 

[SecretWeapon]

I don't deserve to have half of the last page blocked because one person cannot avoid being unhinged about Cleopatra/Ptolomeic dynasty. I won't bother reading those posts but utimately, both Ptolomies and Egypt changed to fit each other. It's silly to disregard them because they don't fit whatever fantasy you might have of what Egypt should be

Anyway, hope Cleo gets into Civ 7, even is as an alt leader. Might give her a chance to actually look greek this time. I enjoyed her probably the closest thing Civ6 had to a mascot (anniversary logo, switch cover, anthology artwork)

 

[Jkchart]

Yes--foreign being a key word here. With 4,000 years of native rule to choose from, choosing a Greek grows increasingly unappealing, and Cleopatra VII is the only Ptolemy who has a few extenuating circumstances in her favor--her pop culture presence, her brilliance, her big personality, and (IMO above all) her willingness to make the first concessions to the indigenous population in 300 years, however politically motivated. The Ptolemies "led" Egypt in the same sense Alexander "led" Egypt--or Persia or Babylon. tl;dr: Egypt shouldn't be led by a Ptolemy, but if it must be led by a Ptolemy it should be Cleopatra. Even so, Egypt has more native female rulers to choose from than any other ancient power, several of whom were excellent pharaohs without reference to sex.

Fair points.

 

[AntSou]

I don't deserve to have half of the last page blocked because one person cannot avoid being unhinged about Cleopatra/Ptolomeic dynasty. I won't bother reading those posts but utimately, both Ptolomies and Egypt changed to fit each other. It's silly to disregard them because they don't fit whatever fantasy you might have of what Egypt should be

Anyway, hope Cleo gets into Civ 7, even is as an alt leader. Might give her a chance to actually look greek this time. I enjoyed her probably the closest thing Civ6 had to a mascot (anniversary logo, switch cover, anthology artwork)

Moderator Action: If you believe a banned member is posting, please report the post for staff to deal with. Speculating in a thread is off topic and inappropriate. Comment removed. leif

Gotta sharpen my investigative skills for when Firaxis starts dropping videos of their offices

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

I don't deserve to have half of the last page blocked because one person cannot avoid being unhinged about Cleopatra/Ptolomeic dynasty.

Just skip past it.

This forum is home to passionate, knowledgeable fanatics who enjoy discussion. You’re going to find some sprawling tangents. It might be worth reading them more finely, if you’re willing, since there stances are a little more nuanced than you give them credit for.

Calling fellow posters “unhinged” for having a discussion you disagree with/find disinteresting is rude.

 

[Thormodr]

Just skip past it.

This forum is home to passionate, knowledgeable fanatics who enjoy discussion. You’re going to find some sprawling tangents. It might be worth reading them more finely, if you’re willing, since there stances are a little more nuanced than you give them credit for.

Calling fellow posters “unhinged” for having a discussion you disagree with/find disinteresting is rude.

There are some that have very strong opinions and can be quite rude about it, though. You are always going to find forum know-it-alls.

Not to say I am perfect or anything but I can see why certain posters on any forum might rub someone the wrong way.

Anyway, really hope Cleo is in Civ VII. I've grown fond of her In Civ VI and I never really played Egypt before even though I've been playing since Civ I.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please get back on topic. Please report posts you feel are a problem and let us handle them. Getting off topic to discuss someone's issue only ruins the thread. Thanks.

 

[Patine]

Egypt has more native female rulers to choose from than any other ancient power, several of whom were excellent pharaohs without reference to sex.

If I'm not mistaken (and you probably know better), Cleopatra did not even have title of Pharaoh, formally, except as a subsidiary title to legitimize herself - like Alexander and Ptolemy, themselves - but was usually addressed, and referred to, as a Basilea.