Leader Pass: Rulers of the Sahara - 2/14 Developer Livestream Discussion

[pokiehl]

If I'm not mistaken (and you probably know better), Cleopatra did not even have title of Pharaoh, formally, except as a subsidiary title to legitimize herself - like Alexander and Ptolemy, themselves - but was usually addressed, and referred to, as a Basilea.

That is not true. The Ptolemies, from Ptolemy I himself, fully adopted Egyptian royal titulary.

 

[Patine]

That is not true. The Ptolemies, from Ptolemy I himself, fully adopted Egyptian royal titulary.

But I don't believe foreign rulers necessarily addressed them as such. And since those titles often come up most in diplomacy dialogue, that would be an issue. Of course, I still agree with @Zaarin and would want an actual Egyptian leader instead.

 

[pokiehl]

But I don't believe foreign rulers necessarily addressed them as such. And since those titles often come up most in diplomacy dialogue, that would be an issue.

I’ve never come across anything suggesting they were anything but completely styled as pharaoh. If you have, please share! At any rate, of all the possible protests against a Ptolemy in Civ, this seems to be the most minor possible . Cleopatra is in Civ 6 with no issue.

 

[queenpea]

Has anyone watched PotatoMcWhiskey's Ptolemaic Cleopatra play through? Just starting it now, but I have to say that I am finding the preserve/yield spamming mechanic more and more tiresome.

Unlike other districts in the game, which provide yields and bonuses that are consistent with their intent (campus buildings provide science, like in real life; theater district buildings provides culture, as in real life; commercial districts produce commerce, etc.), the preserve providing housing and other yields is completely nonsensical. Preserves are, by definition, an area which would prevent and preclude any economic activity.

I understand it was a fun game mechanic for some, but it is simply illogical, and I hope that we can leave the preserve behind (and this yield-porn-focused strategy which discourages the building of real world districts) in the past, when it comes time to play VII.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Has anyone watched PotatoMcWhiskey's Ptolemaic Cleopatra play through? Just starting it now, but I have to say that I am finding the preserve/yield spamming mechanic more and more tiresome.

Unlike other districts in the game, which provide yields and bonuses that are consistent with their intent (campus buildings provide science, like in real life; theater district buildings provides culture, as in real life; commercial districts produce commerce, etc.), the preserve providing housing and other yields is completely nonsensical. Preserves are, by definition, an area which would prevent and preclude any economic activity.

I understand it was a fun game mechanic for some, but it is simply illogical, and I hope that we can leave the preserve behind (and this yield-porn-focused strategy which discourages the building of real world districts) in the past, when it comes time to play VII.

The yields that come from the preserve are mostly sensible. You can't improve the tiles, but by going there, a citizen might collect some wild berries, meditate, or take artistic photos. So, Food, Culture, and Faith make sense.

The question I have, is why is this different than a National Park? The idea of an area protected from development already existed. Now we have two implementations that are remarkably different despite the real life usage being fairly similar.

 

[queenpea]

The yields that come from the preserve are mostly sensible. You can't improve the tiles, but by going there, a citizen might collect some wild berries, meditate, or take artistic photos. So, Food, Culture, and Faith make sense.

The question I have, is why is this different than a National Park? The idea of an area protected from development already existed. Now we have two implementations that are remarkably different despite the real life usage being fairly similar.

If it was a small bonus, I would agree with you, but the strategy of spamming preserves for massive yields while neglecting all other districts is just nonsense. This economic style is not reflected anywhere in the real world.

And why do they provide housing? It is literally a plot of land that a local government has decided not to develop.

I can see how a preserve or a park would add amenities, culture, and perhaps some income (from tourism), but bonuses to adjacent tiles seems like the wrong way to do it.

 

[UWHabs]

The yields that come from the preserve are mostly sensible. You can't improve the tiles, but by going there, a citizen might collect some wild berries, meditate, or take artistic photos. So, Food, Culture, and Faith make sense.

The question I have, is why is this different than a National Park? The idea of an area protected from development already existed. Now we have two implementations that are remarkably different despite the real life usage being fairly similar.

If it was a small bonus, I would agree with you, but the strategy of spamming preserves for massive yields while neglecting all other districts is just nonsense. This economic style is not reflected anywhere in the real world.

And why do they provide housing? It is literally a plot of land that a local government has decided not to develop.

I can see how a preserve or a park would add amenities, culture, and perhaps some income (from tourism), but bonuses to adjacent tiles seems like the wrong way to do it.

Housing especially is an abstraction between like health/land/etc... Yeah, you could argue that preserves should probably just give amenities and not housing, but I'm guessing the devs felt that would overlap even more with National Parks.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure that they were added basically as a way to sort of make an early national park, and to have some fun with yield porn. People mildly complained about the tiles that couldn't be improved, wouldn't it be cool if you could give them something and have a better use for Appeal, and the devs responded with Preserves.

What I find annoying about them are that the AI absolutely don't know how to use them, there's always oil or Aluminum in one of the tiles, and that they are just so ridiculously expensive to use early in the game. I've had a few tries recently where you get a national wonder nearby, and I think about preserve spamming it for the fun yields. But man, trying to build a Grove in a low pop city is just painful. You very quickly realize that it's a lot more valuable to just ignore the tiles, get that +5 holy site, and use that faith to do whatever you want later. Preserves can be fun later in the game if you want to sort of roleplay a "back to nature" role, since at that point buying the grove for 600 gold isn't nearly as painful.

But for 7, I agree, I would love if they could consolidate and clean up pieces. Like, it would actually be cool if the preserve basically was what you had to build to create a National Park, and you could draw out the borders of the National Park, and maybe the Grove and Sanctuary just increase the yields in that National Park. Give it tourism when you reach Conservation, and suddenly you have more or less combined a few features. Add in the ability to create a more custom region so that you're not limited to diamonds, or you can share them between cities, and that's even better. Like in my current game, when I got to National Parks, I realized a couple of my cities were too close together, so I have a group of +10 to +14 appeal Floodplains in a vertical diamond shape that would be absolutely perfect for a National Park. But it's literally impossible for me to combine those tiles into the same city, so no National Park there.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And why do they provide housing? It is literally a plot of land that a local government has decided not to develop.

I envision the district more along the lines of a place as a spiritual sanctuary, at least in the Ancient Era whenever you unlock it with Mysticism. It also graphically resembles a Shinto shrine, or a shrine from East Asia in general. In that case I think adding in housing is appropriate, if it's indeed seen as a sanctuary. I would rather the district name be Sanctuary to reflect that while the modern era building unlocked at Conservation be renamed to Preserve.

 

[SecretWeapon]

Civpedia article mentions they are "cultivated and pruned wild spaces" rather than just wilderness and mentions both shinto shrines (faith) and royal hunting grounds (food). Housing probably represents well... The housing for the people that is required to maintain those spaces, which depending of the place could be anything between a household to a village.

They are a quite open concept district, even if graphically they are basically a shinto shrine in the woods

 

[Thormodr]

Agree about combining preserves and national parks. Preserves would be needed first to later build the National Park. Also, would be nice to have Marine National Parks.

As far as yield porn, it is often what drives you tube/twitch videos. So, I doubt that'll be going away.

 

[queenpea]

Civpedia article mentions they are "cultivated and pruned wild spaces" rather than just wilderness and mentions both shinto shrines (faith) and royal hunting grounds (food). Housing probably represents well... The housing for the people that is required to maintain those spaces, which depending of the place could be anything between a household to a village.

They are a quite open concept district, even if graphically they are basically a shinto shrine in the woods

If it takes that long to explain a district concept, the devs are stretching, in my opinion.

Again, if it was a small yield to the district itself, fine, but the stacking and stacking and stacking of these yields is just out of bounds, in my eyes, and I would prefer for cities in Civ to mirror those in the real world.

I understand it's a gameplay mechanic. I think it's quite an interesting when it's a wonder like Petra, which turns desert into "farmland", but the preserve is an easy and overly exploited gimmick.

Another note: on National Parks, I've never quite understood why a city can work those tiles. If they are protected, they should be protected from exploitation by a city. There should be a trade off here: added tourism while losing the tile yields. If that completely nerfs the park, then increase its tourism output.

Or, cities with National Parks should only receive tourism from the tiles they are not working in said park.

 

[pokiehl]

Housing probably represents well... The housing for the people that is required to maintain those spaces, which depending of the place could be anything between a household to a village.

That seems way too literal. A preserve wouldn't have many people maintaining it, and if that logic were the case, then every district would provide Housing. In this case, I think Housing represents "livability" -- same reason Sewers, for instance, provide Housing.

 

[Weraptor]

I really like Leugi's Preserve Rework mod. It removes the weird housing bonus and instead provides you with science according to appeal of the tile (although I've tinkered with it for it to be culture). It gives science to neighboring tiles with high appeal. Grove then provides faith equivalent to the science yield. Finally, Sanctuary doubles said faith and science. And also makes the city be able to purchase Naturalists, which I think is a really cool as it ties up both Preserves and Natural parks neatly. Additionally, there is a addon to the mod which reduces food and production of the affected tiles with each building, because, well, we preserve them and not exploit them. There are policy cards sprinkled in the civic tree to remedy this. Wholly recommended.

 

[Kwami]

As far as yield porn, it is often what drives you tube/twitch videos. So, I doubt that'll be going away.

Not only that, but players like the yield porn, too. Ed mentioned in a recent video that they added more yield porn wonders after seeing how many people liked to post their Petra cities to social media.

 

[Thormodr]

Not only that, but players like the yield porn, too. Ed mentioned in a recent video that they added more yield porn wonders after seeing how many people liked to post their Petra cities to social media.

Yes, and I am guilty of it too. I admit it.

Petra is my favourite wonder. I love making massive mountain yields as the Inca or floodplain yields as NeoCleo.

I do think Firaxis has noticed this, as you say, and is catering to that crowd.

 

[UWHabs]

Yes, and I am guilty of it too. I admit it.

Petra is my favourite wonder. I love making massive mountain yields as the Inca or floodplain yields as NeoCleo.

I do think Firaxis has noticed this, as you say, and is catering to that crowd.

And I will say, with everything on the map, I think you kind of have to do it that way. I often find my modern cities with very few actual tiles to work, so it makes sense to make sure they're strong.

Of course, it also means that when you get to the modern era, it's always a real pain to have like a 9 food tile and replace it with a theatre square...

 

[Thormodr]

And I will say, with everything on the map, I think you kind of have to do it that way. I often find my modern cities with very few actual tiles to work, so it makes sense to make sure they're strong.

Of course, it also means that when you get to the modern era, it's always a real pain to have like a 9 food tile and replace it with a theatre square...

A painful choice, yeah.

 

[queenpea]

Not only that, but players like the yield porn, too. Ed mentioned in a recent video that they added more yield porn wonders after seeing how many people liked to post their Petra cities to social media.

Again, with wonders, which are limited to one each in game and require substantial production, I understand this gameplay element. I have no issue with it. I love finding that perfect location for Petra and then reaping its rewards. I have no issue with wonders like Petra, or St. Basil's or Etemenanki.

My issue is really is with Preserve spamming, and I hope we can leave the current model of the Preserve in the past when we move on to 7.

 

[Patine]

I’ve never come across anything suggesting they were anything but completely styled as pharaoh. If you have, please share! At any rate, of all the possible protests against a Ptolemy in Civ, this seems to be the most minor possible . Cleopatra is in Civ 6 with no issue.

It's not, "with no issue.' There are those that have issue with it, and speak on these forums. And actual Egyptian Pharaoh would be much preferable after enduring endless appearances by a Hellenic poser for pop culture appeal. I am not alone in this, and lack of a real Egyptian Pharaoh except once for Rameses and once for Thutmose should be rectified. The 3000-year-long Ancient Egyptian civilization that has been an icon of Antiquity should not constantly be represented by a Hellenistic conqueror state that existed after Ancient Egypt's glories.

 

[pokiehl]

It's not, "with no issue.' There are those that have issue with it, and speak on these forums. And actual Egyptian Pharaoh would be much preferable after enduring endless appearances by a Hellenic poser for pop culture appeal. I am not alone in this, and lack of a real Egyptian Pharaoh except once for Rameses and once for Thutmose should be rectified. The 3000-year-long Ancient Egyptian civilization that has been an icon of Antiquity should not constantly be represented by a Hellenistic conqueror state that existed after Ancient Egypt's glories.

That has nothing to do with whether other leads address her as "Pharaoh" or not. That was my point - you said the Ptolemies were not considered Pharaohs or that other leaders wouldn't call them "Pharaoh." That's all I meant.