Are there any subjects from common education you feel you could be well without?

Lohrenswald

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The most famous example from when at school I think is maths

like someone asks in maths class "what do we need this for?" while being thaught algebra you know

so any sort of subject: maths, litterature, geography and what have you

and can you make a reasonable defense for why you shouldn't have had that subject?

If your defence is "I don't need it for my job" you need to explain why that is reason enough
 
Not really, no. Basic education as a child should cover everything so that, if nothing else, you can continue to study in any field. I'm sympathetic to being annoyed with required classes in college that have nothing to do with a degree, especially when one is paying 10k a semester, but I can't really think of any class I took that felt like a waste or superfluous, and people should really probably have the general knowledge that the basic required classes help foster.
 
tl;dr: Not really.

Longer answer:
I think it's more about how stuff is taught, and not so much about what the school systems are trying to teach us. I suppose I should suggest things like poetry analysis, history of 18th Century Norwegian domestic politics or memorising US state capitals are things we could have been without.

But algebra is really important though. And it's not really difficult either, everyone is already doing it in their heads already, it's just the letters throwing people off. And likewise, having some knowledge of how to pick up deeper meanings in texts can be pretty useful and interesting. And while details of 18th Century politics or US state capitals aren't exactly useful, it's good to have some overview of how politics have developed until now, and why and how the US has states, how that system works and the ideas behind it.

None of these things are actually needed to be known to just go around picking potatoes in a field, and that's technically enough to survive. But knowing these things empowers and enables us to be active and useful citisens and participants in complex political systems and influence our lives and shape our futures.

I have some sympathy for arguments about cutting out useless subjects for people who are tired of school and just want to work instead, but every time I have considered the issue, I have always returned to thinking that a well-rounded education is important. Our economic and political systems are so complex that we no longer have much need for working ants toiling quietly in factories. We need active and engaged minds to continue to push our societies forward, and very limited educations are not the way to get there.
 
High school:

I missed over half of the core classes of high school. Having had some and missing some of each subject, the most important classes to take in school are math classes. The least important to do in school but the most important to learn is English/writing/reading. Everyone should be comfortable with basic algebra, geometry, statistics, and calculus concepts (i.e. the rate of acceleration of the rate of acceleration Is A Thing).

The important things to learn in high school are a bit more meta:
learn how to win at systems (high school, get A's, go to college or whatever)
learn how to learn

Almost none of the actual material, like the books or the histories or the sciences, in high school is necessary. The kids who care learn it anyway, the kids who don't don't learn it.
 
I took a frisbee course in college that has not served me particularly in later life.
 
Foreign language instruction in the United States is basically a gigantic waste of resources that would be better served elsewhere.
 
The most famous example from when at school I think is maths

like someone asks in maths class "what do we need this for?" while being thaught algebra you know

so any sort of subject: maths, litterature, geography and what have you

and can you make a reasonable defense for why you shouldn't have had that subject?

If your defence is "I don't need it for my job" you need to explain why that is reason enough

No, I don't think I'd be better off without everything I've learned over the years. I enjoy knowing things.
 
I went to a catholic high school and so had to take two mandatory courses: Grade 9 Religion class and grade 10 World religions class.

I ended up not minding grade 9 religion class because I already knew a lot of stuff about the old testament, so a lot of the tests were easy. The teacher would also frequently argue with all the secular kids in class, which was pretty much most of the kids. Catholic high school in (some parts of) Canada are pretty much like public schools with a chapel. They exist for historical reasons and there isn't a very big emphasis on religion. They generally provide a slightly higher standard of education compared to public schools, so a lot of non-Catholic parents enroll their kids in catholic school anyway. It's pretty much the same thing as public school except of those 2 mandatory religion classes, and "optional" church service for stuff like easter and christmas, which basically means you sleep in and show up to school late. Plus since it's sort of kinda maybe wishy washy public-like, technically they have to let kids opt out of the religious stuff.

So anyway, grade 9 religion class was easy and entertaining, but nothing overly memorable. 6.7/10

Grade 10 religion class was a lot more interesting, because we learned about a bunch of non-Catholic religions. Emphasis on non-Christian, but a bunch of time was spent on different Christian denominations too.

Anyway, these 2 classes were for the most part worth it. I didn't mind taking them.

I could be well without grade 10 English, which was basically all Shakespeare, it did not teach me anything useful. I pretty much learned which things Shakespeare found funny. All my essays were BS and I hated the teacher. It was the most boring class ever. I was learning English at the time, and watching TV was a lot more educational. Shakespeare is for hipsters and actual literary academics.
 
I have probably never used chemistry, but I think its still useful to understand some terminology just in case. If I could restart my career with time machine, I would try pharmacist career.
 
Foreign language instruction in the United States is basically a gigantic waste of resources that would be better served elsewhere.

How many foreign languages do Americans you learn? For me its probably biggest mistake in school to not learn languages properly. But I understand that having native English in America is quite adequate.
Still, knowing one other language is like having one other life.
 
As a person who has no appreciation for the fine arts those "norwegian" lessons where we did nothing but read and analyze poetry was hard to swallow. And the religion lessons wasn't exactly riveting either.

But ultimately I don't really feel that anything I have experienced so far was something that I would not have happened to me. All my experiences feels like important part of me (whatever me means) and I don't regret anything.
 
Foreign language instruction in the United States is basically a gigantic waste of resources that would be better served elsewhere.
Here in Canada, most things we buy in stores have bilingual labels (English and French). I've found it very handy to have a basic reading knowledge of French, for reasons ranging from stock clerks accidentally turning the French side toward the aisle, to helping my dad's girlfriend program some electronic thing she bought that had abysmally awful English instructions, but the French ones were quite clear.

High school calculus could be swapped for statistics, but otherwise I don't think so.
Neither of those were part of the high school math stream I was in. It was a shock when I showed up for my first day of an organic chemistry course in college and the instructor said, "There won't be too much calculus in this class." Since I had neither the time nor the aptitude for a crash course in whatever he was talking about, I ended up dropping the course and switching to physical geography for my science course (one of the best decisions I ever made, since I loved that course and yes, we did learn practical things in it).

I went to a catholic high school and so had to take two mandatory courses: Grade 9 Religion class and grade 10 World religions class.

I ended up not minding grade 9 religion class because I already knew a lot of stuff about the old testament, so a lot of the tests were easy. The teacher would also frequently argue with all the secular kids in class, which was pretty much most of the kids. Catholic high school in (some parts of) Canada are pretty much like public schools with a chapel. They exist for historical reasons and there isn't a very big emphasis on religion. They generally provide a slightly higher standard of education compared to public schools, so a lot of non-Catholic parents enroll their kids in catholic school anyway. It's pretty much the same thing as public school except of those 2 mandatory religion classes, and "optional" church service for stuff like easter and christmas, which basically means you sleep in and show up to school late. Plus since it's sort of kinda maybe wishy washy public-like, technically they have to let kids opt out of the religious stuff.

So anyway, grade 9 religion class was easy and entertaining, but nothing overly memorable. 6.7/10

Grade 10 religion class was a lot more interesting, because we learned about a bunch of non-Catholic religions. Emphasis on non-Christian, but a bunch of time was spent on different Christian denominations too.

Anyway, these 2 classes were for the most part worth it. I didn't mind taking them.

I could be well without grade 10 English, which was basically all Shakespeare, it did not teach me anything useful. I pretty much learned which things Shakespeare found funny. All my essays were BS and I hated the teacher. It was the most boring class ever. I was learning English at the time, and watching TV was a lot more educational. Shakespeare is for hipsters and actual literary academics.
I can't fathom a mostly-secular class of kids in a Catholic high school. :dubious: Honestly, I can't. Maybe the two systems have nicer interactions in your province, but it can be awfully nasty here.

I did briefly consider attending the Catholic high school instead of the public one (I was taking private music lessons at the time and my teacher was Catholic; she recommended her own former high school). But recalling the arrogant attitude of some of the neighborhood kids who went there ("We're better than you, because we're Catholic"), plus a few other reasons, was enough to make me realize that the public high school would be the better choice.

Comparative religion is interesting, of course, but I never started on anything like that until college. In one of my cultural anthropology courses the religions being compared were native North American ones, not Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc.. I took a couple of non-Canadian history classes - the one on classical history had some ancient Greek and Roman material, and ended with the Crucifixion (the instructor was scrupulously neutral on that, showing no bias whatsoever). The following course, taught by a different instructor, was supposed to be about medieval history, but the instructor often wandered off-topic and did show bias in favor of Christianity. I also watched a televised course on comparative religion as Carleton University had one that was shown on University of the Air. This one discussed Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and I found that rather fascinating.

Shakespeare isn't useless, warpus. :( There are so many cultural things in our modern society, particularly in literature and movies, that draw on Shakespearean influences. It's a shame you didn't have a good teacher for that class. It's an unfortunate fact that most high school English teachers really don't know how to teach it effectively. It's meant to be experienced as a play, not as dry reading material. While I enjoyed the high school classroom material, I didn't really start to appreciate Shakespeare until I saw it performed live, on stage (Twelfth Night).

I have probably never used chemistry, but I think its still useful to understand some terminology just in case. If I could restart my career with time machine, I would try pharmacist career.
If you've ever boiled water to make anything to eat or drink, you've used chemistry. That's how I was finally able to start overcoming my aversion to cooking - I started thinking of it as a practical application of some of the stuff I'd learned in my chemistry classes. Everyone uses chemistry in their daily lives.



In my Grade 12 English class, the teacher announced we were going to do a section on debating. We were allowed to choose our partners, but she assigned the topics and which side we were supposed to argue. So my partner and I found ourselves assigned to argue in the affirmative that history should not be taught in schools. Both of us considered that to be one of the dumbest things we'd ever heard, and I asked the teacher to assign something else. She refused, and so we were stuck trying to come up with persuasive arguments for something we absolutely did not accept as any sensible position to take. :huh:

We got through it reasonably well, and it wasn't quite as stressful as the debates in the Grade 12 social studies class, in which my partner (same person) and I had to argue in the affirmative that Canada should boycott the Moscow Olympics (this was in the fall of 1979). Most of that class were guys. Most of them were very sports-minded, and not happy at the possibility of a boycott.
 
How many foreign languages do Americans you learn? For me its probably biggest mistake in school to not learn languages properly. But I understand that having native English in America is quite adequate.
Still, knowing one other language is like having one other life.

When I was in school, long ago, one year of foreign language was mandatory. Which relates not at all to learning another language. That's what really makes it a waste of time. I learned more Spanish trying to pick up girls on one weekend in Mexico than I learned of French in a year of high school.

I suspect that in most places it would be possible and useful to learn a language just by exploration and exposure, but in the US that's not really possible (though it is getting that way with Spanish).
 
Foreign language instruction in the United States is basically a gigantic waste of resources that would be better served elsewhere.

Would you buy off someone who spoke your language rather than someone who did not.
 
If your defence is "I don't need it for my job" you need to explain why that is reason enough

I think this is really worth saying. We should be very suspicious of people who want to make education a matter of producing good workers, and only good workers.
 
Chemistry; I can appreciate what you can do with it, though I find the subject matter itself boring and never had to apply lessons I've learned there.

Courses which people love to hate (usually, maths, philosophy or foreign languages) are often the most underrated courses in terms of value you get for learning them.
 
Foreign language instruction in the United States is basically a gigantic waste of resources that would be better served elsewhere.

So you want Americans to be even more ignorant of foreign cultures (and actually their own language) as they already are?

I think this is really worth saying. We should be very suspicious of people who want to make education a matter of producing good workers, and only good workers.

And how would that even work? You only know in retrospect what you need for your work. Should parents tick boxes which jobs their child should be prepared for at the start of grade school?

That said, I probably should have listened to the teacher who told me that French would be more useful than Latin.
 
I can't fathom a mostly-secular class of kids in a Catholic high school. :dubious: Honestly, I can't. Maybe the two systems have nicer interactions in your province, but it can be awfully nasty here.

I suppose I didn't know everyone in class so I can't speak for everyone. But about a third of the class were the "cool alternative" kids, who did drugs at lunch time, played hackey sack, went to concerts, had "grunge" clothing, etc. Another third of the class was the jock crowd. From what I could tell they found the idea of God funny at best. The rest of the class was people who just didn't seem to care either way. There were also a couple quiet types who were hard to read, and a couple other cliques, but nobody in that class was religious from what I could tell.

^^ This is me describing the makeup of that religion class in particular. The makeup of the school as a whole was .. well, it was the same as any public school in the city, pretty much. Kids of all shapes and sizes, the alternative/grunge crowd, the metal crowd, the druggy crowd, the jocks, the Polish crowd, Latino, etc. Only a small minority took church or religion seriously. Like I said the catholic schools here are at a higher level, so parents want to send their kids there. You dont have to be catholic to enrol, so the school is a mix max of faiths (and a lack thereof)

Shakespeare isn't useless, warpus. :( There are so many cultural things in our modern society, particularly in literature and movies, that draw on Shakespearean influences. It's a shame you didn't have a good teacher for that class. It's an unfortunate fact that most high school English teachers really don't know how to teach it effectively. It's meant to be experienced as a play, not as dry reading material. While I enjoyed the high school classroom material, I didn't really start to appreciate Shakespeare until I saw it performed live, on stage (Twelfth Night).

I know that it's not useless, but to spend an entire year reading nothing but Shakespeare, in a grade 10-11 level setting, is extreme overkill. It's going to make 80%+ of the class hate Shakespeare.

And ok, I'm exaggerating, but it was at least half Shakespeare. If we just covered one or two plays and then focused on other types of English literature, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But Shakespeare was such a central part of the curriculum, both in grades 10 and 11, that I just grew to hate it. Like I said I did not get much out of the subject matter aside from perhaps finding out what Shakespeare found funny. I will never forget our teacher pointing out which parts of the plays were funny, as we awkwardly made our way through them in class. "This part is funny".. and the class would go ".. Oh.. . .. okay"

I understand the importance of Shakespeare in the big picture of everything English, and I understand its importance in the scope of studying it as a literary academic.. but to us, a bunch of 14-16 year olds, it was presented as the ultimate version of the English language. "You know about Stephen King, and Margaret Atwood, and Frank Herbert? Well, this is some next level !@#!$ It will blow your minds. It is the ultimate thing to learn when it comes to the English language"

And to a bunch of teens it was useless. What did we learn? Yeah, some things, but if we had read only 1 shakespeare play over the 2 years, or even 2 or 3, that would have given us the exact same amount of new & useful knowledge. Why not spend more time reading other authors, more contemporary authors, works of which are easier to relate to? Or at least see a progression of English from Old English, through Shakespeare-type stuff, etc. as it evolves into modern English? Nope, it had to be Shakespeare every other day, for some reason.

If the intent was to get everyone to hate the guy, then it worked.

So I definitely see the benefit in literary academics studying Shakespeare, but the people in charge of high school level English curriculum in Ontario are obsessed with the guy.
 
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