Are video games art?

Yes. I agree with many of Ebert's reviews, but he's wrong here.

Considering games have art departments, concept art, and all kinds of designers. The answer is clearly yes. I don't think Ebert understands what's involved in making a game. They actually do draw things. Even if it's just a concept piece to give an idea what it will eventually look like. They are more art than movies are, as they actually do "draw", where is a movie is just depicting reality (fictional reality to be more precise)
 
OK guys, who's going to tell the Pope that the whole Sistine Chapel ceiling thing ain't art? I can tell you right now I'm not, it'll be final straw for him. It'll break the poor guys heart. You really shouldn't kick someone when they're down :(

I admit the frescoes in the Sistine Chapel suffered a little in terms of their artistic integrity when one of the popes caused the nude figures to be painted over to cover their nudity. However, although Michelangelo did sell his services to the Church, I'm not sure that his art was made for the purpose of being objectified and sold for a sum of money.

Seriously though, 99% of professional artists try to sell their art. How does that make it "non-art"?

It's not exactly non-art. It's just less conceptually pure than art that isn't made to be sold.

That said, I don't begrudge artists their living. I might have done it myself if I had any talent.
 
It's not exactly non-art. It's just less conceptually pure than art that isn't made to be sold.
I can see where you're coming from but I don't buy it.

Most art (whether sold or not) is made not only to satisfy the creative urge of the artist but also to impress others. Whether cash is exchanged for it or just a pat on the head (or even just the artist hiding it in a trunk & patting himself on the head) seems relevant but not by much.
 
I can see where you're coming from but I don't buy it.

It's not for sale :D

Narz said:
Most art (whether sold or not) is made not only to satisfy the creative urge of the artist but also to impress others. Whether cash is exchanged for it or just a pat on the head (or even just the artist hiding it in a trunk & patting himself on the head) seems relevant but not by much.

I think 'impressing others' is not what would usually be considered a requirement for art by more serious critics. Rather, if an art work impresses others, it's a consequence of the inspiration or of the ideas conveyed.

By that measure, yeah, I guess the fact that an artwork is sold doesn't necessarily mean anything. But I think that as long as you are making something to be sold, that thing is probably not a thing of purely subjective expression. In fact, I think I'm not good at art precisely because I worry too much about the objective qualities of a piece of work that I create.
 
Video games are about as much of an art as they are a sport.

ie. Not at all.
 
I admit the frescoes in the Sistine Chapel suffered a little in terms of their artistic integrity when one of the popes caused the nude figures to be painted over to cover their nudity. However, although Michelangelo did sell his services to the Church, I'm not sure that his art was made for the purpose of being objectified and sold for a sum of money.

Michelangelo was bullied into painting the Sistine by a warrior pope and firmly resented the project. He fled Rome once to avoid having to undertake it (being that he saw himself as a sculptor rather then painter) and only returned at the command of victorious Pope Julius, who did of course pay him handsomely. To put it bluntly, if it were up to Michelangelo he would never have painted the Sistine chapel and his prime motivations certainly weren't 'pure subjective expression'.

You imply motivation, or intention, is paramount in determining what counts as 'art' and that said intention must be 'subjective expression'. Fear tinged with avarice seem pretty damn far from 'subjective expression'. This is especially when the purpose of ones art is to aggrandise an abrasive pope the creation of said art is bounded by theological conventions church morality. And yet, we would agree that the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is art. If not you are using the word 'art' incorrectly. Most would call Shakespeare's histories art, Beethoven's 9th art and Madonna of the Rocks art; none of these are motivated by pure subjective expression', or much of anything pure. They are all motivated by a mixture of factors, including patronage, avarice and ambition.

We can deduce from this that motivation is not of essential importance in determining what is art; to hold that it is to ignore how the word 'art' is used in common language.
 
Video games are about as much of an art as they are a sport.

ie. Not at all.

What about all the artistic effort that has to go into making a high-quality game?

Sketching and Concept art?

Rendering characters and items, much less ENTIRE WORLDS? (3D art)

If art includes other creative pursuits, what about the writing that goes into a detailed plot? Or how about the composition of the game's soundtrack?
 
No. However, many video games come packaged with an incredible amount of superfluous art in the form of writing, graphics, and so on. This can have aesthetic merit, although it's usually just cruft to allow people to justify wasting how ever many hours of their lives pressing buttons.
 
Michelangelo was bullied into painting the Sistine by a warrior pope and firmly resented the project. He fled Rome once to avoid having to undertake it (being that he saw himself as a sculptor rather then painter) and only returned at the command of victorious Pope Julius, who did of course pay him handsomely. To put it bluntly, if it were up to Michelangelo he would never have painted the Sistine chapel and his prime motivations certainly weren't 'pure subjective expression'.

Yes, his services were coerced, but in all this there's still nothing to indicate that the work was not the product of purely subjective expression. I can be forced at gunpoint to create an artwork and it could still be the product of purely subjective expression.

lovett said:
You imply motivation, or intention, is paramount in determining what counts as 'art' and that said intention must be 'subjective expression'. Fear tinged with avarice seem pretty damn far from 'subjective expression'. This is especially when the purpose of ones art is to aggrandise an abrasive pope the creation of said art is bounded by theological conventions church morality. And yet, we would agree that the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is art. If not you are using the word 'art' incorrectly. Most would call Shakespeare's histories art, Beethoven's 9th art and Madonna of the Rocks art; none of these are motivated by pure subjective expression', or much of anything pure. They are all motivated by a mixture of factors, including patronage, avarice and ambition.

We can deduce from this that motivation is not of essential importance in determining what is art; to hold that it is to ignore how the word 'art' is used in common language.

That's where you're wrong. Motivation is not what determines whether something is purely artistic or not. You can certainly be motivated as an artist to earn a living, as long as the work itself is not created specifically to be objectified and equated with a sum of money (i.e. to be sold in the marketplace). It's when the commodification of an artwork is involved in its creative process that subjective expression is undermined. Thus the difference between a true piece of art and a souvenir or a product.

It's simply contradictory how art is regarded as having subjective value but is also meant to be translated into something that has objective value in the marketplace. You can't have your cake and eat it too. In fact, this implies that art should be ideally be free. It's the services of the artist that should be paid for.

Also, this is not a way of differentiating art from non-art, whatever that means. Essentially, in order to retain full artistic integrity, an artwork has to be the purely subjective expression of the artist without regard for objective social concepts such as demand and supply. You can certainly make a living as an artist who is engaged pure artistry, but that is going to be very difficult and you might have to compromise at some point. Hence, non-professional art is still more likely to be pure.
 
Yes, his services were coerced, but in all this there's still nothing to indicate that the work was not the product of purely subjective expression. I can be forced at gunpoint to create an artwork and it could still be the product of purely subjective expression.

That's where you're wrong. Motivation is not what determines whether something is purely artistic or not. You can certainly be motivated as an artist to earn a living, as long as the work itself is not created specifically to be objectified and equated with a sum of money (i.e. to be sold in the marketplace). It's when the commodification of an artwork is involved in its creative process that subjective expression is undermined. Thus the difference between a true piece of art and a souvenir or a product.

It's simply contradictory how art is regarded as having subjective value but is also meant to be translated into something that has objective value in the marketplace. You can't have your cake and eat it too. In fact, this implies that art should be ideally be free. It's the services of the artist that should be paid for.

Also, this is not a way of differentiating art from non-art, whatever that means. Essentially, in order to retain full artistic integrity, an artwork has to be the purely subjective expression of the artist without regard for objective social concepts such as demand and supply. You can certainly make a living as an artist who is engaged pure artistry, but that is going to be very difficult and you might have to compromise at some point. Hence, non-professional art is still more likely to be pure.

This seems quite contrary to your original 'Art that is made for money is compromised' position. The former is clearly a judgement based on motivation whilst now you are talking about means. Namely, art is only art if it is something created through the means of subjective expression.

What do you mean by 'subjective expression'? I'm having a hard time interpreting the phrase in such a manner that bars video games from status as 'art' but allows music, painting, sculpture, literature so on and so forth. On one level the creation of anything original is bound to be subjective; if it did not in some way involve subjective processes it could hardly be original. This does not, of course, preclude video games from the status of art. On another level the requirement 'true' art has to be purely subjective seems impossible; it imagines the artist as an entirely closed system, with no inputs from social concepts. The Sistine Chapel ceiling is certainly based on external social concepts; It is based on the bible.

Frankly, I think your entire approach is wrong; You seem to presuppose that there is an essential quality to art that determines its purity, how close it approaches bering 'art' ("essentially, to retain full artistic integrity..."). That there is a certain quality all art must share otherwise it cannot be called art. Given some art has more of this essential quality then other art, some art is more 'pure' then other art.

The problem is, no such essential quality is present and the clear boundaries of definition it demands are impossible. 'Essential qualities' and 'definition' is not the means by which words function, and art is no different. We only attempt to define a word when we already knowhow to use said word; it is this use that creates meaning. We do not have something essential that links all instances of a word's use together, and nor do we need one. All we need is a family resemblance between the usages of a word. We do not need a single fibre running through the usage of a word but rather overlapping fibres between usages.

Consequently to say that something is not art because it is not art because it does not have the essential quality of subjective expression is to misunderstand how we use 'art' in language. When looking at the Mona Lisa or listening to Mozart we do not consider whether these pieces are 'subjective expression' before appreciating them as art. We intuitively see they bear familial resemblance to other works of art and thus automatically consider them art.
 
No. However, many video games come packaged with an incredible amount of superfluous art in the form of writing, graphics, and so on. This can have aesthetic merit, although it's usually just cruft to allow people to justify wasting how ever many hours of their lives pressing buttons.

Isn't all art something to occupy our free time? And I said occupy, not wasting. I don't waste time playing video games. As there is nothing better I could be doing.
 
This seems quite contrary to your original 'Art that is made for money is compromised' position. The former is clearly a judgement based on motivation whilst now you are talking about means. Namely, art is only art if it is something created through the means of subjective expression.

No, it isn't "clearly a judgement based on motivation". It's not the purpose (read: intentions) of the artist - which is what motivation amounts to - that is in question here, it's the purpose of the particular artwork itself (read: what the work is supposed to realise/achieve).

lovett said:
What do you mean by 'subjective expression'? I'm having a hard time interpreting the phrase in such a manner that bars video games from status as 'art' but allows music, painting, sculpture, literature so on and so forth.

I only skimmed through the article, but I can certainly sympathise with Ebert's argument that the production process speaks against it being art. If an artist had a marketing team and executive team that give input for the work from the perspective of what would sell, we're likely to call him a phony, or at least we probably wouldn't appreciate his output as true works of art. And why do you think that is? I think that's because his art stops being about subjective expression but more about product design and marketing.

lovett said:
On one level the creation of anything original is bound to be subjective; if it did not in some way involve subjective processes it could hardly be original. This does not, of course, preclude video games from the status of art. On another level the requirement 'true' art has to be purely subjective seems impossible; it imagines the artist as an entirely closed system, with no inputs from social concepts. The Sistine Chapel ceiling is certainly based on external social concepts; It is based on the bible.

It's not that there is no external input whatsoever. But any external input has to be internalised and expressed subjectively by the artist. To be put through the artist's perspective, so to speak.

lovett said:
Frankly, I think your entire approach is wrong; You seem to presuppose that there is an essential quality to art that determines its purity, how close it approaches bering 'art' ("essentially, to retain full artistic integrity..."). That there is a certain quality all art must share otherwise it cannot be called art. Given some art has more of this essential quality then other art, some art is more 'pure' then other art.

Why, yes. Otherwise anything can be art. But we don't find that true, do we?

lovett said:
The problem is, no such essential quality is present and the clear boundaries of definition it demands are impossible. 'Essential qualities' and 'definition' is not the means by which words function, and art is no different. We only attempt to define a word when we already knowhow to use said word; it is this use that creates meaning. We do not have something essential that links all instances of a word's use together, and nor do we need one. All we need is a family resemblance between the usages of a word. We do not need a single fibre running through the usage of a word but rather overlapping fibres between usages.

I'm struggling to think how all this answers the question. By 'art' (as distinct from 'craft') we certainly understand something fairly specific. Unless you mean to say that the term is meaningless anyway, what's wrong with trying to narrow down what exactly we mean by it, which does follow a certain pattern if not a certain set of rules?

lovett said:
Consequently to say that something is not art because it is not art because it does not have the essential quality of subjective expression is to misunderstand how we use 'art' in language. When looking at the Mona Lisa or listening to Mozart we do not consider whether these pieces are 'subjective expression' before appreciating them as art. We intuitively see they bear familial resemblance to other works of art and thus automatically consider them art.

Okay, so what do you think they have in common?
 
Depends entirely on your definition of art and I will say no! :)

I take the view that Video Games represent immersive distractions, similar to Total Art as defined by Kracauer. In other words, a total waste of time. You could say video games are kitsch, but I won't go that far.

Current Video Games are not comparable to Fine Art objects. The binaries of Video Games to not appreciate and nor do they (typically) have Distributed Personhood as defined by Alfred Gell. Distributed Personhood is an important quality of scientifically measuring whether or not something is an art object.

However, I tentatively suggest that the design or conception of Video Games could have a distributed personhood, and in 2007/2008 I did demonstrate a proof-of-concept environment for creating applications with Distributed Personhood.
 
OK guys, who's going to tell the Pope that the whole Sistine Chapel ceiling thing ain't art? I can tell you right now I'm not, it'll be final straw for him. It'll break the poor guys heart. You really shouldn't kick someone when they're down :(

Michelangelo wasn't paid for painting the Sistine Chapel's ceiling.

But even if he had been, there is a huge difference between making a painting and selling it, and being hired to paint a painting.
 
but video games are interactive.

Movies and paintings aren't.

Having said that I will make a possibly contradictory declaration:

Minecraft is art.
 
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