Are you a Nice Guy who can't seem to get a date because you're too nice?

[Valka D'Ur]

That is a good philosophy - I am a big believer in function over form, or at least I end up applying it everywhere.

But there's exceptions. When I go to work, for example, I make sure I look good. There's many benefits to doing that. People treat you better, they're friendlier, you command more respect, end up more likely to get noticed by a higher up, etc. It might be stupid, but it works. And since there is that element of function there, I can pat myself on the head and say that function over form principles were not compromised

Of course you need to look professional when you're at work or engaged in some kind of businesslike activity (ie. negotiating with bankers, trying to make a deal with a car salesman, house-hunting, etc.).

I went through the hassle of "work clothes" (pantsuits) when I worked at the craft cooperative or at the Nature Centre. I even gave in and got the necessary stuff to be (mostly) in uniform whenever I did front-of-house work at the theatre. At the Arts Centre, that meant white blouse, black pants or skirt, black shoes, and the centre supplied the vest and tie. I never bothered with the tie. Doing other front-of-house work depended on the play - I actually put on a modern dress when ushering for "Grease" (I hate wearing stuff like that). It was much more relaxing to put on my normal medieval outfits when working on the Shakespeare plays.

 

[Zelig]

Well that's how you'd access and record the information. But how do you determine what's triggering it?

Temperature sensor.

 

[Borachio]

Right. But there's this Japanese technique with a hollowed-out warm brick. How would you control for that sort of thing?

I think nobody dresses up for men. Men dress to impress women. Women dress to impress other women.

Really? And why would a woman want to impress another woman? So they're establishing some kind of hierarchy? Working out who's the alpha female? Then why are the principal signalizers overtly sexual in nature? Like red lipstick, for example?

I dress to impress everyone. So women know I'm classy and men know I'm better.

A monkey in a silk suit is still a monkey. The only ones you'll impress by your dress style are other monkeys.

So you never show off to attract women's attention?

The latter sentence is true, to a great extent. But it's also a "make her envious and jealous" kind of thing, rather than "dress for gaining respect" sort of reason.

No. I never show off to attract a woman's attention. If I want anyone's attention I say things like "Hey! Give me some attention here please." (shopping) "Or can I help you, sir/madam." (formal and helpful), "Wotcha." (informal) "Heeeeeeello, long time no see! How are you?" (long time old friend greeting) etc (you get the idea, I'm sure)

Yeah, for the longest time I didn't get why women put so much effort into their shoes. Men don't give a crap about what's on women's feet, for the most part.
Once somebody told me that women do it to impress other women a lightbulb went on in my head

So, it is an alpha female thing? Good luck with that theory. There may be something in status and social ordering - I suppose that does happen. But it's little to do with how anyone dresses - apart maybe for a label indicating what the order that has already been established is. This is all superficial stuff, imo. I don't see how dressing a certain way is going to turn any woman into the alpha female. She dresses a certain way because she is the alpha female. (Assuming she's not very bright, that is.)

If, that is, and it's a big if, there are such things as alpha females, or alpha males come to that, anyway.

 

[Mise]

@warpus: I'm not saying that it isn't a plausible narrative. I'm saying that "a plausible narrative" is all it is. It's not hard science. 2000 years ago, the bible was a plausible narrative, too. A lot of people treat narratives that appeal to evolution in the same way, and I think your hypothesis is guilty of that.

From my experience confident men are not only able to approach more women, which seems somewhat obvious

Well, that's the point -- it is obvious. It is a very simple hypothesis. It doesn't require any assumptions about universality of human experience across all cultures and times, nor about the Environment of Evolutionary Adaptedness (since you didn't like "100,000 years ago" -- it's not like we know any more about the EEA), in order to explain why confident men and arseholes alike all have more sex. Okham's Razor suggests we should focus on these things first, rather than make fanciful guesses about human evolution.

And again, I don't see any evidence -- real evidence -- to dispute this hypothesis.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Moderator Action: I just went ahead and removed all the off-topic, overly personal back and forth. Let's stick to the topic, okay?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Really? And why would a woman want to impress another woman? So they're establishing some kind of hierarchy? Working out who's the alpha female? Then why are the principal signalizers overtly sexual in nature? Like red lipstick, for example?

It's a status thing. It says, "I can afford this and you can't." Or in many cases, it's "My husband/boyfriend/SO can afford this and yours can't." It's meant to show off, insult and humiliate the other woman, bolster one's own status and reputation (for having nice things), and often knock down the other woman's self-confidence.

Don't ask me about lipstick - I honestly don't understand why women wear that crap. I certainly don't. I've worn it exactly twice in my life (for a play), and hated every moment.

 

[Chiteng]

Lipstick is simply branding someone. Lets people know you were there.

 

[Disgustipated]

I know, this is buzzfeed and all, but these silly comics and flow chart express a good principle I think.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/13-reasons-why-nice-guys-are-the-worst

What do you think OT? Are you a nice guy who thins girls are jerks who just want the proverbial BAD GUYS? Do you suspect there may be truth in these silly internet memes, and that perhaps the NICE INTERNET GUY shtick is in fact, not so nice?

What do you think about this phenomenon, or the perception thereof?

The comic is very accurate. Nice guys aren't nice at all. I used to think I'm a nice guy, but then realize I wasn't. Supposed nice guys expect a woman to have sex with them because they helped her move some heavy object or something. That's a pretty dickish thing to do. Tip: A woman isn't going to have sex with you for doing menial chores for her. And if she did, she would be a prostitute. You gotta make a woman attracted to you. If you can't seem to do it, it's because your standards are too high. Cracked dot com has a pretty funny article about it. Basically they say to learn a skill or talent to make a woman attracted to you like I said above. It's what you can offer to the woman (any chump can do menial chores, you need a unique talent).

So while I may do nice things, I'm not a nice person. Most of my life I couldn't get a date, but I've been with the same woman on and off for the past 3 years almost, so I'm pretty happy where I'm at. No desire to go back to the dating scene. That's a nightmare.

 

[Kennigit]

Yeah, for the longest time I didn't get why women put so much effort into their shoes. Men don't give a crap about what's on women's feet, for the most part.

Once somebody told me that women do it to impress other women a lightbulb went on in my head

rofl I can't believe this thought never occurred to me before. I mean, I thought it true for professional things (high heels to be taller maybe, and both men and women care about dress shoes just to impress the workplace) but I never could fathom all the other "styles" of shoes past your simple flip flop/sandal/athletic/business shoe, all of which are practical for different applications.

One anecdote though, I saw a girl on facebook once post "if you see a man wearing crocs then you know he's given up [on dating presumably]". I now have to wonder if she thinks men judge her footwear, and now I realise women care about women's footwear

edit: oh jeez this explains why girls care about rainboots. I was shocked to learn those can actually be expensive.

 

[JohannaK]

HUNTER. Those are the trendy ones.

 

[Perfection]

I can see what you mean, but for now, I don't really want to think that way. I'm not looking for perfection, just, I don't know, her.

You're not my type anyways.

 

[Hygro]

- Women tend to be drawn to alpha males, on average, due to past evolutionary pressures
- Guys who self-label as "nice guys" are usually not alpha males.
- Alpha males tend to be louder, pushier, and more confident.

Do people still believe this line of reasoning? I feel like I stepped off a plane and John Edwards was still a viable presidential candidate and half the country thinks the Iraq War is a good idea.

I find this thread makes my head hurt a lot less if I insert "some" in front of every absolutist/essentialist statement about half of humanity.

Thanks for the suggestion. I needed that.

So-called alpha males appear to be difficult, unpleasant and unskilled people, in a general or stereotypical sense. Is this true, if so, why should these destructive personality traits be desirable?

They aren't. They attract the women who are equally loud as they are. In other words, a small minority of self destructive men are attractive a small minority of self destructive women. And all the self-entitled nice guys are jealous that they can't be in the self destructive club, ignoring the legion of healthier women. It's probably for the better, since those guys are self destructive in their own ways.


And in honor of Arwon and good sense in general, pretend I used the word "some" where appropriate.

Preliminary research indicates that, yes, they are human beings, and they do have thoughts and feelings. Or at least as much as their control group. Possibly more.

More research into this perplexing question may be required.

hahaha this was brilliantly funny on three levels.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I vaguely recall some studies from a few years ago that seemed to show that in most primate species (or was it just among the apes? or baboons?) the females actually do not prefer to have sex with "alpha male" types as had previously been assumed. Primates troops are not organized like wolf packs or lion prides. Female primates more typically seem to dislike the domineering males, and rarely mate with them unless violently forced. They are much more likely to initiate sex with the beta males. I believe it was noted though that the preference for the gentler males only becomes really pronounced once the female becomes pregnant with her first child. The male ape who does the most to help a female take care of her first born typically gets a lot more sex and is likely to be the father of her next child.

 

[Quackers]

I think a lot of people are being quite unfair here. I know there has been a vitrolic feminist backlash to the "nice guy" moan; there was an article on the Guardian a few weeks back - the accusation "misorgynist" feels very hollow on this topic.

I think you have to put this into perspective. A lot of these "nice guys" are aged between 15 - 30; young men who are probably socially a bit awkward, have few friends and struggle in social situations. Not everyone is like this and obviously the majority of them will get over these barriers, i think most people have been socially inept at some points in their lives. I think that would be a quite reasonable assumption to make. So; these guys - like anybody else male or female; desire a relationship and the companionship and sex that entails. A perfectly natural and healthy thing for a young man to do. So, in the pursuit of a woman, they target somebody they feel would be a good partner and try to get to know them. They feel that out of being friendly a relationship might grow. Unfortunately, this can be a naive assumption to make but if this is your first time trying to get a partner you're bound to make lots of mistakes.


Anyway - eventually your plans don't come to fruition, you have a good friend in this girl but you want a full on relationship. You may even have tried to make your feelings clear - in any case you feel rejected and unhappy. You've put a lot of effort into a relationship, found a good friend but your ultimate goal is still illusive. In this respect you feel bitter at being rejected - a natural way to feel. This bitterness can look very ugly to an outsider but thats just the normal pain people get from trying to pair up. I reject the oversimplification that men are just acting "nice" to have sex; I think that isn't happening in these situations. It is young men deep within the tricky transition from teenager to adulthood doing the best they can to find a partner for the first time and making some mistakes.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, the "nice guys are horny d-bags" trope only works if you fail to hold them up for comparison to the alternative.

 

[AdamCrock]

Well I am a nice guy but I have figured women out (An uneasy feat I assure You) If they have period they want a brute to take them and if not they want a nice guy becouse he can take a good care of the children - if I am wrong women please correct me There are sometimes (during the period) times that women prefer niceguys but untill the process is done they want a brute nature heh :shrugs:

EDIT : Ideal would be 2 men : 1 brute and 1 niceguy , if it comes together in one person that person is ideal for women

 

[caketastydelish]

I think Quackers made a pretty good point, but I'd like to expand on it if he doesn't mind.

No two men are precisely the same, and no two women are precisely the same. For example, as I've said earlier, a lot of women prefer "more confident" guys.

I'm not trying to be misyngostic here in the least, but based on my own conversations with women, I can honestly say a lot of them prefer a guy that "knows what he wants". On the other hand, there are some women that find such guys to be repulsive.

Such as, perhaps if she was a victim of rape or otherwise a traumatic experience by a man, she could find the more assertive men to be annoying, and much prefer the more shy men, who don't have the balls to approach her unless she talks to them first.

So all in all, "nice guys don't get girls" or even "confident guys don't get girls" (as I've implied earlier in the thread, and I'd like to retract that statement) are both over generalizations and thus are not really a reliable trend.

If a woman can not get a boyfriend this does not make her a bad person, a loser, a hater of men, etc. Similarly if a man can not get a girlfriend the same things apply. (so they don't necessarily need to "see a shrink" as someone earlier implied here) But I'm not going to make overgeneralizations for why they can't find a partner, because no two people on the planet are exactly the same.

I hate it when people generalize men, or do the same for women. Way too much of that has been going on in this thread (no offense guys)

 

[AdamCrock]

@Cake You must be a woman to talk like that !

 

[caketastydelish]

No I am a guy, a straight one, and I honestly don't know what you mean.

edit: I am an inquiring gentleman, not an inquiring gentlewoman.

 

[Hygro]

Quackers, fair enough to a point and I agree.

However two things, one quibble and one argument. The quibble is that the feminists weren't the first to bemoan nice guys in popular culture for being manipulative and not actually nice. I'd give that credit to Neil Strauss in the game. He popularized that point that was being made in the pickup community for however long it was. Though partially self-affirming, it was also true. Particularly among those who found their way to pickup

The reason, though that I disagree with the idea is that a lot of these guys are first and foremost totally arrogant. They think they understand who they are very immensely but are actually believing a lie thy would discover if they A) stopped and listened and B) stopped and considered that given what they heard when they listened (women want nice dudes among other things), and given a lot of what they hear they believe applies to them (being a nice caring person), but notice a disconnect between talk and action, then.....
.... perhaps they should take a minute to realize they are telling themselves lies about who they are. I understand it, but I don't really respect it. I respect the process of outgrowing it. Some men never do.

Additionally, a lot of that being nice is not out of love but out of fear.