Article: Internment of Japanese-Americans

[overkill9]

You must be living under a rock - or cherry picking examples you find convenient. So one or two minorities managed to survive the harsh conditions in siberia due to distance and oversight represents the entirety of stalin's actions? You sound like a revisionist propagandist yourself. You assert that stalin did not attempt to exterminate peoples, yet vast numbers of them including ethnic koreans, cossaks, tartars and chechens not to mention ethnic germans or ukrainians have directly been deported, and you once again ignore the fact that their numbers, in particular chechens and koreans did not recover until after stalin's policies were reversed under his successor.

Your ridiculous inability to understand the differences in how 'similar' sounding principles differ as night and day by the nature of their results is the main example of how you simply cannot think outside of your box, or trying hard not to think about how that gives much reason to back up justifications for great many actions people take that are commonly understood as correct. I provided the obvious example, yet you label it 'truism' somehow believing that can dismiss a correct analogy pointing out a fatal flaw in your narrow self-serving definition which only is grabbed onto so you can try to criticize those you want to criticize. So two ideas have similar sounding rhythm behind them - your subjective and flawed interpretation by the way - and thus their results are superceded by their supposed 'principle' as you understand them? Do you also believe the universe revolves around your nose as you define them? I have pointed out again and again how results of your ideas show the true nature of ideas implemented by any government. I fail to see the parallel between those who blatantly differing examples, one of which vast majority of people are alive and well, not to mention most definitely not under harsh labor or slave-like conditions, in contrast to what their actions entailed. Yet you attempt to play word games and find any pathetic excuse in slimmest of tangents (again) while real and solid evidence suggests you are only cherry picking your facts.

Your arguments have been refuted again and again, subjective and selectively chosen as they are and not much of arguments to begin with. Yet your idiocy in plugging your ears to any possibility that what you want to believe may be wrong is obvious in your continued efforts at denying the facts that are staring in your face. Also, you never demonstrated or answered just how experienced or knowledgeable you are regarding the uniqueness of dealing with mentality of people in that region, which changes great many things in regards to how one approaches this issue. Instead, you ignore what you cannot refute, and create sophistry to muddle the issue and deflect questions instead of answering them with anything other than 'I have already made up my mind and will use any excuse to refuse your thinking. I suggest you stop running in circles back to sophistry and learn that real facts and that people's actions will not change because you like to be selective in your thinking and refuse to believe anything other than what you want to believe. Your questions have been answered, you simply cannot grasp them thanks to refusing the accept anything other than what sounds correct in your head.

 

[LightSpectra]

They should have been aware that the moment they chose to become immigrants and become US citizens, they had no room for dual loyalties. No nation on earth allows dual loyalties in the end, and US has no obligations to do so either. If they continue define themselves by the color of their skin and heritage they only care to bring up as an excuse to brand themselves 'unique', than they should not be surprised that US or any other nation looked upon them with same suspicion. They already separated themselves in heart and mind apart from america - therefore no one else has any obligation to treat them as our equals or citizens. Respect and equality is a two way street, and both parties are required to do their part in it.

Oh boy, this is possibly the most insane strand of McCarthyism I've seen on this forum in a while.

 

[ParkCungHee]

japanese by their actions were much more secretive and seclusive than any other nationality, not only in US but other places as well.

Glad to see I'm not the only fan of Sax Rohmer on the forum.

 

[Tee Kay]

Oh boy, this is possibly the most insane strand of McCarthyism I've seen on this forum in a while.

McCarthyism? No, this is just pure, twisted, disgustingly unabashed, blatantly racist victim blaming.

There are many horrible people on this forum, but this guy takes the cake.

 

[Azale]

Fail !

The Japanese declared war on the neutralist USA.

Just in case that was directed to me.

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: As I have PMed to overkill9, characterisation of entire ethnic or national groups as traitors is unacceptable racist trolling. Discussion of US behaviour during WWII or any other topic should be done respectfully and without such gross and offensive generalisations.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[overkill9]

Oh boy, this is possibly the most insane strand of McCarthyism I've seen on this forum in a while.

Nothing's wrong calling something like how it is. When did calling spade a spade become 'wrong opinions'? Do you expect to essentially betray a nation that you supposedly swore allegiance to and then hide under the banner of 'equality' and 'not-so-subtle racism'? The double standards of so-called victims always amused me.

And no, I am not an american native. As a relatively unrelated 3rd party observer, I find the general anti-american tendency of this generation to be anything but smart or unbiased. If you imagined I am some kind of right-wing american, you are sorely mistaken I just call out things as they are instead of pandering to whatever feels good at the time - something great many hysterical anti-american crowd fails to put up to.


Also, PM'd the moderator asking for more direct research into this issue and whether assertion based on overwhelming facts and actions can be constituted trolling or just facts that are difficult to accept. I heard Civ fanatics forums are a cut above your average internet forums - I hope the moderators make out the difference between hard-to-accept truths vs. outright trolling. I don't think just because something is not acceptable to a crowd it must therefore be defined as 'trolling'. If it is based on hard evidence and facts resulting from overwhemlming tendencies of said group, people not liking it must know it is their responsibility to accept facts, not wishing truths will twist themselves for their own subjective views.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Because something is hard to accept does not make it a truth.
The Sign of Contradiction may be evidence of holiness, but not historical accuracy.

 

[overkill9]

You clearly failed to mention or notice that said statements are based on facts. Nice try trying to turn it around, but the fact that their actions support these assertions thoroughly makes your statement a typical elementary sophistry attempting to pass off as a valid point. That only works if I said something is true entirely because it is unacceptable - which is a lie you try to portray as true by twisting words.

Now, korean contradictions are a different story all together. Want to talk about that? You a 2nd generation gyopo or someone who actually knows something about that place?

 

[LightSpectra]

You clearly failed to mention or notice that said statements are based on facts

What 'facts'? You've used a lot of weasel words, such as that 'many' Japanese-Americans had anti-American rhetoric (which is perfectly acceptable in a country that was founded upon the principle of free speech), or that there were 'several' instances of Japanese-Americans committing treason. These are possibly facts--albeit you supported neither of those statements, and I am challenging their veracity now.

However, saying that anybody that doesn't immediately disavow their ethnicity, language or native culture and socialize themselves instantly upon arriving in the United States means they're deserving of being 'strung up' because of the aforementioned, isn't based upon fact at all. That's you being a hardcore xenophobe.

 

[Azale]

overkill9, kindly remove yourself from this thread please. Your posts have been entirely unhelpful, inflammatory, and I would sooner solicit advice from DeWitt himself than you.

 

[Tee Kay]

Tens of thousands Japanese Americans volunteered to serve in the United States Armed Forces during the Second World War, even while their families were interned, including one unit that became the most decorated in American history.

That's loyalty.

 

[overkill9]

What 'facts'? You've used a lot of weasel words, such as that 'many' Japanese-Americans had anti-American rhetoric (which is perfectly acceptable in a country that was founded upon the principle of free speech), or that there were 'several' instances of Japanese-Americans committing treason. These are possibly facts--albeit you supported neither of those statements, and I am challenging their veracity now.

However, saying that anybody that doesn't immediately disavow their ethnicity, language or native culture and socialize themselves instantly upon arriving in the United States means they're deserving of being 'strung up' because of the aforementioned, isn't based upon fact at all. That's you being a hardcore xenophobe.

It really does take one who uses them to see only weasel words don't it?

Let's see, that incident in hawaii for one that I pointed out about a downed japanese pilot and a 'loyal' japanese suddenly turning his back on america and helping the pilot by standing against his neighbors is one glaring example. Go do some research on all the fact on the net and books about cases of japanese turning their back on the country they swore loyalty to, no matter how small or hushed up they are. You want me to spoon feed you all the evidence?

Other examples are obviously not well documented, but only a fool or someone cherry picking examples would only point to those sources as sole evidence. Anyone who lived in and experienced in such communities know that they are much more xenophobic and racist than their supposed 'oppressors', none of which of course will be documented thanks to their double-faced tendancies and facades. I will chalk up your ignorant statement of the reality of situations regarding their mentality to your inexperience.

I never said they has to drop and IMMEDIATELY remake themselves. Natural human impluses deny such rapid change. You are once again imagining what you thought I said, while I never made such claim. But ridding oneself of any former allegiance when immigrating (knowing your past and making choices for the future are very different things) is a prerequisite for any nation, not to mention that's what becoming a citizen of a nation means. You want to live in another nation as a citizen while still claiming loyalty for a different place? No nation can or should tolerate such attitudes. Your sheer ignorance stinks of double standard and wanting cake and eating it with out paying the price.

It may take years, decades even, but eventually they had to drop it if they want to be treated equally since mutual agreement in that regard is what makes one a member of a nation. They may know the fact that their ancestry is of different nation, but scant number of italians or germans exhibited such enclosed and community-wide tendancies to the degree japanese did. America is no different. Other nations don't have the huge immigration rate US has, but if they even so much as start taking notice of it, they start hissing xenophobic slurs left and right. I point you to recent anti-'foreign' sentiment in japan when in fact they have less than 3% non-japanese living on their soil, insulting 2nd generation koreans and chinese as if they are sub humans. It is utterly laughable how you think america is the only nation that must be faulted in terms of racism. America fixes its own problems, and certainly does not need hypocritical criticisms from much guiltier nations who cannot even deal with minute version of issues america is facing.

They are not deserving of being strung up because they have former allegiances that they are having difficult time in getting rid of - anyone would understand that this takes time. What makes them deserving punishment is their basic underlying mentality of xenophobia and seclusion and exclusivity which they actively relied upon to differentiate themselves from american society and its people, even after years of living in america. The case where a mother of one japanese-american claimed she wanted to see japanese warships steaming into seattle harbor comes to mind. No one can tolerate such insolent attitudes of treasonous people.

Of course, there are exceptions. But the difference in mentality is just too great for anyone to make comparisons of japanese situations with that of italians or germans, or any others. If you do not know what this means, I suggest you gain some more experience and knowledge in that department, not only of what is written down (of which there are much more than people like to acknowledge, or hush up and try to deny if it comes to light).

By the way, I like how you bring up free speech in the same sentence as criticizing the name of very nation that grants those laws. Such infantile hypocrisy. First of all, free speech does not cover those that actively seek harm and destructive goals of others with treasonous intentions. There is a very big difference in constructive criticism that people have hard time accepting, versus outright hostile and y attitudes that actively makes enemies of others. Your inability to differentiate between the two, or unwillingness to do so while bleeting about 'free speech' reeks of irresponsible and hypocritical mentality that world should revolve around your sentiments.

This is no xenophobia - just stating the reality of the situation that others like to whitewash, while ignoring their responsibilities with excuses of 'rights' and 'equality'; those are, as I have stated countless times and still haven't been refuted, two-way streets. The fact that many convince themselves they are innocent victims only serve to exemplify how selective and hypocritical their rationale is, and exposes them for two-faced traitors.

There is no nation who will tolerate such divided loyalties of people actively seeking to go against itself. If this is not so and you believe people from different backgrounds should be actively allowed to be beholden to loyalties outside of country they are a citizen of, than I suggest you take in more immigrants and allow them to carve out their own little countries in your backyard.

taillesskangaru: I think you need to revisit my first post, ending specifically with saying exactly opposite of complete and utter generalization you think I am making. Some of them are truly patriotic and loyal, and certainly deserves to be called americans. However, some also did all they could in whatever way to spite and oppose the idea instead of truly being loyal, thereby making their actions an extension of severe case of hypocrisy trying to pass itself off as loyalty - if this does not compute for you, ask yourself why they continued to active attempt to seclude and differentiate themselves away in a manner opposite of belonging to a society even after coming back from the war by over emphasizing themselves being 'japanese' rather than american. If they were truly loyal, they would most definitely protest about being judged by their skin, but would also do so in a manner that does not scream us vs. them attitude that many 'civil rights' groups usually exhude. That's what it boils down to. A few good men, but far too many hypocrites.

Edit:

Azale, when writing a paper you need to keep in mind that unbiased and rational arguments looking at both sides is essential to giving a paper credibility. If you already made up your mind about a singular argument way above all else, than it is no longer a proper academic paper but personal and subjective rant that only cherry picks its 'evidence'. You asked specifically to tear your essay to shreds, and that is what I did by addressing the core issue of objectivity in relations to considering both sides of issues, instead of having a sole objective of portraying a certain group as inscrutable victims while demonizing another's core intentions without considering the overall context of actions and intentions of both sides. Were you not sincere when you mentioned you would like input? Since when was proper criticism and pointing out what only another person can agree with? Tell me if what I said is truly out of this world, or simply difficult but proper manner in which a person must discuss the issue of racism, historical event and rationale behind them through not only the lens of one party but of many. Or do you simply attempt to back whatever group you feel like supporting regardless of what is balanced and objective?

 

[LightSpectra]

There's nobody on this forum (except perhaps other self-described racists) that thinks anything you say is remotely credible. You are not welcome here, and your constant bellowing of our "laughable ignorance" would probably be more welcome on racial supremacist websites, so I would suggest you go there.

Kind day to you.

 

[overkill9]

And your comments about my ideas that boiled down to 'i don't want to listen to you' isn't welcome either. Please refrain from replying if you do not have anything constructive to add, only resorting to whining 'NO ONE LIKES YOU' which is pretty infantile way of weaseling out of an argument you stuck your self into. Interesting how you think pointing out facts and obvious results of people means they are justifiably labeled as 'racists', a term made trite and useless by people using them only when it suits their narrow-minded ideas.

If you have nothing constructive to add, refrain from answering my comments with useless spite.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Just in case that was directed to me.

It was, and the wikipedia article is a legalistic fiction.

The so called declaration was merely a recognition
that war existed and it did not start the war.

 

[overkill9]

It was, and the wikipedia article is a legalistic fiction.

The so called declaration was merely a recognition
that war existed and it did not start the war.

In that same vein, japanese could argue invasion of china was justified because mukden was merely an extension of war that already existed between china and japan vying for regional supremacy.

It sound like a great fallacy to say japanese are victims of 'unspoken war', since they initiated the war in china, and others simply could not stand their atrocities and decided to cease providing them with raw materials being used in the said war. Japan cannot even claim some kind of self-defense or flimsy historical excuse, since only time they were under attack from the mainland was from the mongols, and it was fortunately swept away in a natural disaster, thus giving rise to the myth of kamikaze and invulnerability

By their logic, it is perfectly acceptable for a serial murderer and rapist to attack a shop owner, from whom he bought knives and chloroform to attack his victims with out the shop owner knowing first what the purpose of the purchase was, when that said shop owner finds out his crimes and decides to at least deny service to him. There was no 'unspoken war' on part of the united states, US simply decided not to sell any more to a nation their own raw materials which a seller is perfectly within his right to do so, especially when the buyer is using them for less than honorable adventurism. For japan to justify attacking US for their own inability to supply the war that they started is ridiculous narcisissm and insolent military government policy.

I don't see how anyone can justify japan's attack against US when their quandary was entirely of their own making, derived from completely unjustified war of one-sided aggression against an impoverished and seemingly easy prey that was china and korea.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Fine so let's deal with facts. You have claimed that many Japanese people were "Treasonous" before the war which lead to the internment of Japanese Americans.

Can you name a single person of Japanese extraction charge with Treason prior to 1945?

 

[overkill9]

Fine so let's deal with facts. You have claimed that many Japanese people were "Treasonous" before the war which lead to the internment of Japanese Americans.

Can you name a single person of Japanese extraction charge with Treason prior to 1945?

Can I name a SINGLE incident where japanese extraction charged with treason?

Most definite yes. Look up Niihau Incident. Hard to charge this one with treason when the said traitor was beaten to death by locals before being dragged into a court house to face trial, but I doubt you are insipid enough to believe not being formally charged means he was not a traitor. Try not to presumptuously assume and challenge my ideas when you clearly do not know the facts.

Of course, there is much fallacy in that case as well - just look at its article on vaunted wikipedia that goes on and on about making excuses trying to paint those who condemn the treason as 'racists'. They ignore the fact that this blatant about-face could not have rung such a strong cord with even the most forgiving and reasonable people without subtle (and not so subtle) expressions of 'exclusive' and 'separate' attitude of enough japanese americans which gave much credence to a conclusion that, should a chance arise and situation changes, many japanese would run to side with their 'heritage' rather than the nation they supposedly agreed to be a part of. Of course, for those with interest in advancing the 'rights' of their particular 'race', this is always screamed over by bleeting 'RACIST' when they themselves are exclusively worse in almost everything they accuse others of. Not all, but enough to the point where it become plausible to say this was a rare expression of their true feelings in regards to how they view their 'loyalty'. Their post-war insolence in denying any fault of acting as if they are special separated group deserving of apologies, while piggy backing on black people's civil rights movement when they themselves viewed blacks as nothing more than lowest of dark monkeys (if you ever lived in a real east-asian community, you will know exactly what I am talking about).

Also bear in mind that before the war, many japanese americans in agriculture tried to create exclusively japanese led, japanese created places that by their exclusive attitudes alienated others and generally exhuded 'us vs them' attitude. This does not scream belonging by any stretch of imagination.

Why did I not provide a specific example, or engage in long list of references as many in these internet forums do (often from the said vaunted wikipedia I cringe anytime someone cites it as if it is somehow a legitimate source - it makes most of these websites seem populated by lazy college kids who lift wikipedia for their 'essays')? Precisely because I found it trite to engage in such list debates when the other side clearly is not interested in presenting 'legitimate studies' that are neither hard objective facts nor unbiased. What I just pointed out was a fact, and answers your question whether I can provide a SINGLE incident of a treasonous behavior by japanese americans.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Can I name a SINGLE incident where japanese extraction charged with treason?

Most definite yes. Look up Niihau Incident. Hard to charge this one with treason when the said traitor was beaten to death by locals before being dragged into a court house to face trial, but I doubt you are insipid enough to believe not being formally charged

In other words, no you can't find an example of someone of Japanese extraction charged with Treason.