Ask a Christian

[Erik Mesoy]

What sort of christians are you all? (Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, etc...)

Lutheran (ie Protestant).

I'd like to add a little to this:

Erik is really quoting the EVIDENCES that one is a Christian.

Anyhoo... they are not what "makes" a Christian.

Yes, the bulleted ones are evidences, but things like praying also help you to become a Christian, so I felt it was appropriate to include them. As long as you're not doing those things for their own sake, that is.

Also, typo of the day: "Cocktail" for "Cockatrice". That brightened my day a little.

 

[rysingsun]

Great, I am doomed to hell just because I judged harshly on Fundamentalist Christians . The Path is just too narrow and I doubt that I would even make it .

CivG have you ever said a prayer anything like "God I've heard that Jesus died for my sin and that if i would only just believe in him you will forgive me on account of what he did. I choose to believe in him and will you forgive me?"

If you say it and mean it he will indeed forgive you and you will not need to keep worrying so much. The road is narrow not because you have to be perfect to make it but because Jesus is the only way to obtain the forgiveness you need.

Indeed it is at once so easy and so hard. It is easy, because don't need to do anything but to trust in him. It is hard because our pride or love of sin prevents us from being willing to confess our need for him.

 

[viz]

Its all about context and translation viz...something you apparently dont comprehend.

If one looks up the root word in hebrew you will find that it is 'tsepha' which translates to mean a 'hissing, or venomous serpent'. The word itself means to 'extrude' thus the picture it is attempting to describe would be of a hissing serpent with its tongue out. http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06848

Suprise suprise, it's good ol' MobBoss!

I can comprehend words perfectly fine, if the translation is wrong then why is it not written as you state? As a rational person I can only conclude that the discription they commonly use is deemed most appropriate.

PS, your link states that it also translates to cockatrice, I think an apolgy is due don't you?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=cockatrice*+06848

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Swedishguy: guess!

@El_Mac: I do believe that prayer helps. If people get contradicting answers that might mean that they didn't really pray, or that they are letting their preconceived notions win, or possibly just that God is withholding knowledge for His purpose. I can't judge the results others get, only mine.

@CG: remember, God wants His children to be saved. You don't have to be perfect, you just have to try to be.

 

[Red Door]

How large would you estimate the heaven to be? I think it's in the bible somewhere...

Heaven is the state of being with God. It's not a physical place.

 

[El_Machinae]

CivG have you ever said a prayer anything like "God I've heard that Jesus died for my sin and that if i would only just believe in him you will forgive me on account of what he did. I choose to believe in him and will you forgive me?"

If you say it and mean it he will indeed forgive you and you will not need to keep worrying so much. The road is narrow not because you have to be perfect to make it but because Jesus is the only way to obtain the forgiveness you need.

Indeed it is at once so easy and so hard. It is easy, because don't need to do anything but to trust in him. It is hard because our pride or love of sin prevents us from being willing to confess our need for him.

This seems to be a common belief amongst Christians, that it's 'easy' to believe enough in Christ to be saved (and if not 'easy', then at least certainly easy enough that each Christian believes s/he will get in). I'm pretty sure that this is derived from Scriptures such as John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Given that we'll all agree that belief either seems to have a gradient of intensity or an 'all or nothing' component, why do all Christians seem to assume that the level of 'belief' required to fulfill John 3:16 is less than the faith required in Mark 11:23?

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

It's the same word. Here's the Strong's link to the word 'believe' (in both texts), for your ease.

To continue my question, it seems to me that the amount of faith required to get into Heaven is more than the amount of faith required to prophesy, kick out devils, and other "great works" (which has various meanings, secular and supernatural) "in Christ's name"

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please resist the tempatation to focus too much on the Matthew quotation; it's merely there to show that self-proclaimed Christians can prophesy and cast out devils (I'm assuming that the prophecy is true prophecy, to warrant bragging to Jesus in Heaven) without having sufficient faith in Christ to get into Heaven. Jesus states that even those with sinful/non-Christian behaviour will be able to perform some miracles.

The actual question is: given that faith can move mountains AND get one into Heaven, why assume you will get into Heaven if you can't move mountains? Why assume the 'quality' of faith needed is 'less' for Heaven than it is to walk on water?

 

[Katheryn]

This seems to be a common belief amongst Christians, that it's 'easy' to believe enough in Christ to be saved (and if not 'easy', then at least certainly easy enough that each Christian believes s/he will get in). I'm pretty sure that this is derived from Scriptures such as John 3:16

Given that we'll all agree that belief either seems to have a gradient of intensity or an 'all or nothing' component, why do all Christians seem to assume that the level of 'belief' required to fulfill John 3:16 is less than the faith required in Mark 11:23?

I've never heard anyone "assume that the level of belief required to fulfill John 3:16 is less than the faith required in Mark 11:23". In fact, this is a metaphor. I'm certain I've never heard anyone try to move a "mountain" and none of the disciples thought Jesus meant this literally. It is used in the sense that you "can do anything through Christ who strengthens me".

The point is that if you have that much faith, it is because you know God very well, in which case you would not ask for anything outside what is God's will, by definition.

It's the same word. Here's the Strong's link to the word 'believe' (in both texts), for your ease.

To continue my question, it seems to me that the amount of faith required to get into Heaven is more than the amount of faith required to prophesy, kick out devils, and other "great works" (which has various meanings, secular and supernatural) "in Christ's name"


Please resist the tempatation to focus too much on the Matthew quotation; it's merely there to show that self-proclaimed Christians can prophesy and cast out devils (I'm assuming that the prophecy is true prophecy, to warrant bragging to Jesus in Heaven) without having sufficient faith in Christ to get into Heaven. Jesus states that even those with sinful/non-Christian behaviour will be able to perform some miracles.

The actual question is: given that faith can move mountains AND get one into Heaven, why assume you will get into Heaven if you can't move mountains? Why assume the 'quality' of faith needed is 'less' for Heaven than it is to walk on water?

Again, it is like "make a mountain out of a molehill" which, coincidentally, you are doing!

There are many in different religions and in the New Age or the occult movement who believe they "know" Jesus, who do dark works in his name. These are not going to be recognized by Him.

 

[El_Machinae]

I've never heard anyone "assume that the level of belief required to fulfill John 3:16 is less than the faith required in Mark 11:23". In fact, this is a metaphor. I'm certain I've never heard anyone try to move a "mountain" and none of the disciples thought Jesus meant this literally. It is used in the sense that you "can do anything through Christ who strengthens me"

Matthew and Mark (and sometimes Luke) are quite clear when Jesus tells His followers that they will be able to perform miracles through faith. I recognise that the 'moving mountains' is a metaphor, but it's a metaphor for outrageous miracles. Others may realise that Jesus frequently promises that miracles could be done through faith, and were done through faith.

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

But let's use your words:

The point is that if you have that much faith, it is because you know God very well, in which case you would not ask for anything outside what is God's will, by definition.

Jesus clearly states that all their prayers will be answered, if they have faith. You state that this is only true if one's faith is sufficient that you know God so well that you only ask for things that are already His will. Given that you often pray for events to occur that then don't happen (thus proving you're praying for events that "aren't God's will"), why assume that your faith is sufficient to reach Heaven? (herein I request that you not wax on about how you always pray that "God's will be done", you'd have to deny that you've prayed for event X (a healing, a deliverance, an event) to occur that then didn't)

Regardless: many others will admit that they don't have faith sufficient to 'walk on water' or anything similar

 

[rysingsun]

The actual question is: given that faith can move mountains AND get one into Heaven, why assume you will get into Heaven if you can't move mountains? Why assume the 'quality' of faith needed is 'less' for Heaven than it is to walk on water?

Scary isn't it? And I have to admit that what you said was well thought out and presented. I have no direct answer to it. Matter of fact I couldn't prove that the saving faith needs to be more and I also cannot prove that the "mountain faith" needs to be more. The issue has been a controversy among christians since the beginning and i think for good reason.

By experience within groups of christians i've often noted that those who are inclined toward faith in Jesus and have made personal confessions typically show considerable transformations in character shortly following such decisions of faith. this provides a sort of empirical argument (for me anyway) that the saving faith does not need to be as great as the mountain moving faith.

And saying that, I do not even agree with such a claim that the mountain illustration is figuritive or metaphorical. after all, if elijah could call fire down from heaven, why not move a mountain while he is at it?

 

[El_Machinae]

It doesn't really matter if it's metaphorical or figurative: I've never met a Christian who didn't think that Jesus couldn't casually toss a mountain with his faith. But the metaphor is clearly one for 'an amazing miracle'.

i've often noted that those who are inclined toward faith in Jesus and have made personal confessions typically show considerable transformations in character shortly following such decisions of faith.

Granted: but this 'transformation' seems to be rather mundane; hardly even in the category of "casting out devils and making prophecy" (I'm pretty sure that people feel that you need 'more' faith to cast out devils than you do to change your attitude). I'm not doubting that faith in God can transform a life, but this minor 'faith feedback' certainly is not enough to guarantee entrance.

 

[rysingsun]

Granted: but this 'transformation' seems to be rather mundane

It is entirely possible that among that small minority of people in the "believe in Jesus and be saved" camp ... maybe to the majority of this small group Jesus will indeed say "depart from me I never knew you".

edit: Incidentally, at the risk of going off topic, i would say that the difficulty of casting out demons and the difficulty of transforming character are comparable. specifically it is fairly easy to cast a demon out of a repentent person, that is a person repentent of the sin that caused the demon to come in the first place. it is difficult to cast a demon from a person who is unrepentent.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually, I have met a lot of people in what you call the "believe in Jesus and be saved camp", who think that merely saying once that they believe in Jesus will get them into heaven regardless, while lots of people who never really had a chance will be shut out. They are completely missing the point.

 

[El_Machinae]

edit: Incidentally, at the risk of going off topic, i would say that the difficulty of casting out demons and the difficulty of transforming character are comparable. specifically it is fairly easy to cast a demon out of a repentent person, that is a person repentent of the sin that caused the demon to come in the first place. it is difficult to cast a demon from a person who is unrepentent.

I think it should be taken in context: all of the demons that are cast out during the gospels are of the ... extreme variety.

Regardless, I have been assured, repeatedly by people of faith, that some of my clients (for lack of a better word) were 'demon possessed'. I suspect that many faithful who believe in demons would 'observe' a few in most mental hospitals. I've been rather unimpressed by the results of 'prayer teams', 'intercessions', and 'exorcisms'; despite their confidence and (putative) faith.

Enough faith to 'diagnose' a demon, but insufficient faith to 'defeat' the demon. All the while assuming enough faith to make it to Heaven. I find it amusing.

But this is off-topic: I'd prefer people not respond to this in lieu of my more sincere question

 

[GenMarshall]

Actually, I have met a lot of people in what you call the "believe in Jesus and be saved camp", who think that merely saying once that they believe in Jesus will get them into heaven regardless, while lots of people who never really had a chance will be shut out. They are completely missing the point.

I dont get how that "Once saved always saved" work . Then again, I am a Roman Catholic.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't get how it works either. It is just an easy way, so some people go for it. Hey, most Protestants think it is silly too.

 

[bgast1]

The 'once saved, always saved' doctrine or whatever you want to call it is something that will be debated until Jesus Christ returns. Both sides argue it pretty well. I personally tend to think that people who have truly committed their lives to Jesus Christ will remain saved until the end. The case can be made that those who fall into apostasy (this is a serious falling away, it is denying Christ entirely and embracing something else, completely contrary to God, like satanism) were either never saved in the first place or will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[bgast1]

I don't get how it works either. It is just an easy way, so some people go for it. Hey, most Protestants think it is silly too.

No they don't. Most evangelicals that I know embrace 'once saved, always saved' wholeheartedly.

 

[Katheryn]

Matthew and Mark (and sometimes Luke) are quite clear when Jesus tells His followers that they will be able to perform miracles through faith. I recognise that the 'moving mountains' is a metaphor, but it's a metaphor for outrageous miracles. Others may realise that Jesus frequently promises that miracles could be done through faith, and were done through faith.



But let's use your words:


Jesus clearly states that all their prayers will be answered, if they have faith. You state that this is only true if one's faith is sufficient that you know God so well that you only ask for things that are already His will. Given that you often pray for events to occur that then don't happen (thus proving you're praying for events that "aren't God's will"), why assume that your faith is sufficient to reach Heaven? (herein I request that you not wax on about how you always pray that "God's will be done", you'd have to deny that you've prayed for event X (a healing, a deliverance, an event) to occur that then didn't)

Regardless: many others will admit that they don't have faith sufficient to 'walk on water' or anything similar

Well, Jesus taught us that when we pray, we are to say it in a certain format, which is the Lord's prayer.

Here is the relevant part:

"...Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."

Miracles in the church are done frequently, but usually in the areas where there is a 'move of God' of an evanglistic (a true one) nature.

I went to church in the late 1980s at a place that went on conferences with
John Wimber of Fuller Theological Seminary. He taught the class, "Signs and Wonders and Church Growth", which eventually spread through out the Christian church in many forms. My husband and I were members of the ministry team. We saw much happening back then, but eventually such things die down to a solid demand by God to live a life of maturity, walking in faith. You cannot stay in the baby stages of evangelistic zeal, if you try to, you will cause harm. Miracles are more like one phase a believer goes through. The early church saw a great deal of it, which is why it grew so large so quickly.

Eventually, the group I was working with fell into heresy, long after I was gone, so I was spared that. But, that is what happens when you don't settle into a life of faith and good works but follow after signs and wonders.

As for this:

Given that you often pray for events to occur that then don't happen (thus proving you're praying for events that "aren't God's will"), why assume that your faith is sufficient to reach Heaven?

I don't think I do that. I have always had my prayers answered about events. I don't pray for things unless I know it is God's will. Then I do so.

 

[GenMarshall]

CivG have you ever said a prayer anything like "God I've heard that Jesus died for my sin and that if i would only just believe in him you will forgive me on account of what he did. I choose to believe in him and will you forgive me?"

Honestly, I never said that sort of prayer.

I dont know if that would help my spiritual alements nor would Christ help a very troubled and angry spirit.

 

[Katheryn]

I dont get how that "Once saved always saved" work . Then again, I am a Roman Catholic.

Because we know the attributes of God include 'knowing the future", when Jesus died for our sins, He knew them all before we became "saved", right?

And, when Jesus died for our sins, we were not yet born, so the sins He died for were ALL in the future, right? So, if He died for my sins, then they were all in the future.

So, if God knows my future, then how could it be that I could get saved if I ever did anything that was soooo bad that He wouldn't die for it?

Is there anything that is more important than the cross? I don't think so!

Is there anything worse than murdering Chrisitans for because of their faith? Paul did that.

Also, when you read the Old Testament scriptures that say, "God is going to do this..." and it is about the wiping away of man's sins, He says stuff like this:

"...as far as east is from west, that is how far away he removes sin from me"

"...I will forgive their iniquity*, and remember their sins no more."

"...All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

* "iniquity" is the propensity to do sin, like a tendency, to continually do it, to return to it.

CivGeneral, you need to read some Colossions, Philippinans, Ephesians, Romans. All these concepts are very vividly explained there.

"Who shall lay a charge against God's people?

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

There is no one that exists who can lay a charge against God's elect.

If God justified (acquitted) us because Jesus' death, who is left?

Jesus said this:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

There are many, many groups that claim Jesus but they do not believe He is who He said He is, they think him an ET, or a reincarnation of Buddha, and deny He is the Son of God.

Jesus will not deny those who truly belong to Him.