Ask a Christian

[GenMarshall]

Except for the point where non-christians shouldnt be answering questions that christians should actually be answering....

It is 'ask a christian' after all....

Well said MobBoss. The Questions are geared towards Christians. Not to Atheists or non-Christians.

 

[Homie]

I don't remember you providing an example, or me refuting it, actually. You might have presented it during my time away.

Still, if you'll remember the mindframe you were in when I originally presented the challenge: at the time, you thought such events would probably happen all the time (such is the power of prayer and God), I don't think you would have predicted being completely unable to come up with a refutation. I think that your mindset has now changed. We're getting quite a few amputees from the two wars going on: none of them are being healed, despite any Evangelical intervention. Your conception of God has certainly changed, since before you (I think) believed in a God who commonly and obviously intervened.

*star*I've heard of dozens of such reports, as well. But none of them were the least bit verifiable. I'm not requiring an actual video. But a medical history before and after the miracle would be necessary, as well as a documentation of the severity of the injury. 'Tis why I focused on an amputation, that way it's nice and obvious

I´m pretty sure I brought up the saint before, but not the preacher who told of his experience. I don´t blame you for not believing, a have little proof to offer in terms of amputee healings. And yes, I do think it is reasonable for unbelievers to want to see an amputee being healed, because then it cannot possibly be a coincidence, as opposed to cancer victims being cured, and the like.

I still very much so have faith that God can heal, and does heal, even today, amputees being no exception. The frequency of miraculous healings is not so great though, although I am sure the vast majority of them go undocumented, for two reasons:
1. It seems many of them happens to "bushmen" in some remote village. This makes sense, as they have not been exposed to Christendom before, and have not formed preconceived notions about it, prejudices if you will. So they are completely open to the message and its power, and they have great faith in it. This chimes in with what Jesus says about faith being necessary for big things to happen.
2. I am certain that when God does heal, it is not to prove His existence, but rather to answer their prayer. If God healed in order to prove His existence, He would be doing that all the time. So He isn´t going to heal just because the video cameras are all set up and ready.

 

[Red Door]

When does you get a soul?

Even the Catholic Church has trouble answering this. Some will say conception, others say very soon after conception (no specific time), and others say sometime around 2nd-3rd trimester.

 

[Phlegmak]

No.

No, no, no, no, no.

Pretty much since the beginning of Judaism there has been a ban on magic in general and a clear distinction that a magician says "I have power, I can cast spells", while a Jew or Christian says "I do not have power. God does".

Then its' a clerical spell vs. a magic user spell.

 

[El_Machinae]

I´m pretty sure I brought up the saint before, but not the preacher who told of his experience.

I don't remember, then. I searched for threads where you've said "saint" and none of them pop out.

2. I am certain that when God does heal, it is not to prove His existence, but rather to answer their prayer. If God healed in order to prove His existence, He would be doing that all the time. So He isn´t going to heal just because the video cameras are all set up and ready.

It seems, though, that He refrains from healing when the cameras are rolling. There are hundreds of amputees coming back, with strong medical records. These records are then preventing God's intervention? Putatively because He doesn't want His existence proven? I don't think "in order to" needs to really be assigned to "prove His existence" but to "to make their lives better"

I don't think there's much Scriptural support for "God doesn't do things when He thinks people will notice"

 

[Homie]

I searched for threads where you've said "saint"

I mentioned his name, which I don´t remember now, but it would have been St.Whoever, so "saint" would not have yielded any hits on a search, it would be "St."

It seems, though, that He refrains from healing when the cameras are rolling. There are hundreds of amputees coming back, with strong medical records. These records are then preventing God's intervention? Putatively because He doesn't want His existence proven? I don't think "in order to" needs to really be assigned to "prove His existence" but to "to make their lives better"

I don't think there's much Scriptural support for "God doesn't do things when He thinks people will notice"

Well, if you re-read what you quoted me as saying, you will see that I never said that. I simply said that He doesn´t heal to prove His existence, He heals to answer prayer. I never said that He will refrain from doing miracles if there are cameras.

My point is simply that most things that happen are not caught on camera, including miracles. I remember shooting hoops by myself as a kid, and sometimes (rarely though) I made insanely impressive shots and dribles, and I remember that I wished that I had only caught it on camera so I could prove it to people. If something is already rare, it is even more rare that an occurrence is caught on camera.

Secondly, I do think that God would take objection if we were to make a spectacle/show out of it. Inviting journalists and cameras to come see the miracle healing would perhaps be offensive to God because we would essentially be treating Him as though He were a puppet to do our bidding. I again quote Jesus to prove my point:

9The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[c]"

12Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

God does not like to be ordered to perform miracles, He is our master, not vice versa.

 

[Defiant47]

I see so you want only people who are Christian are who you want to speak to? Or do you object to me posting on some other grounds? Needless to say, I don't think ask a Christian has any rules about who can ask what and who can reply to anything, I can only assume then that if you would like to phrase your questions in such a way as it states categorically, you only want to hear opinions from Christians and you wont want conversation with anyone else, then it might save a bit of time. Not that anyone will necessarily take any notice unless you're the thread starter or a mod, but you can but ask.

I'd like to engage in a debate involving dissenting opinions, otherwise it's mostly a waste of time, at least for me. Nothing personal. The only reason I called you out on it is on the fear that a Christian might ignore my question(s) simply because in passing it seems like somebody has already answered my question (whereas I specifically want to engage in dialogue with Christians, given the nature of the thread).

Defiant, Christian guy here. I´ve been posed with the challenge of coming up with an example of a limb being regenerated through prayer by El Mac before, on this very forum. God doesn´t throw out miracles on a daily basis, so this would be pretty darn rare. At the same time, nothing is impossible to God, so I´m sure it has happened somtime. The only example I could come up with for El Mac is a saint from (I don´t remember exactly when at the moment) hundreds, or maybe it was over a thousand years ago. A "documented" case of a person whose limb was regenerated. Of course it was a long time ago and so he didn´t believe it. I´ve also heard from a preacher who was in a muslim country praying for people, that he saw a deformed foot grow into a normal foot before his eyes. But I´m sure you want a video, which I don´t have.
As for what someone said, that it might be important for an amputee to remain an amputee - I believe that´s BS.

I´m pretty sure I brought up the saint before, but not the preacher who told of his experience. I don´t blame you for not believing, a have little proof to offer in terms of amputee healings. And yes, I do think it is reasonable for unbelievers to want to see an amputee being healed, because then it cannot possibly be a coincidence, as opposed to cancer victims being cured, and the like.

I still very much so have faith that God can heal, and does heal, even today, amputees being no exception. The frequency of miraculous healings is not so great though, although I am sure the vast majority of them go undocumented, for two reasons:
1. It seems many of them happens to "bushmen" in some remote village. This makes sense, as they have not been exposed to Christendom before, and have not formed preconceived notions about it, prejudices if you will. So they are completely open to the message and its power, and they have great faith in it. This chimes in with what Jesus says about faith being necessary for big things to happen.
2. I am certain that when God does heal, it is not to prove His existence, but rather to answer their prayer. If God healed in order to prove His existence, He would be doing that all the time. So He isn´t going to heal just because the video cameras are all set up and ready.

Then why don't we get together 1000 (Christian if necessary) amputees who are amputees due to reasons that are noble or undeserving of their plight. Let's get a large of group of Christians for a prayer circle (for they have faith and can sincerely talk to God and ask Him for his divine aid), and have them pray sincerely that God restore these amputees' limbs. This shouldn't be a hard task, as I'm sure Christians believe in the power of prayer, and I'm sure that they'll be good and selfless so as to be sincere in their request.

How many amputees will be healed? If 0, statistically showing that this heal rate is most likely less than 0.1%, what does that say about the power of prayer?

But wait! Let's do this again, but with 1000 cancer patients suffering from a cancer with a 10% remission rate (i.e. likelihood person will live).

How many of these patients will be healed? It will probably be somewhere around 100 of them, showing that the heal rate is somewhere around 10%. Does this mean that the power of prayer and the Lord's willingness to lend out His hand and help those in need is directly dependent on what these people suffer from? It is unfortunate that amputees get the "short end of the stick", so to say, since they have a healing rate well below 0.1%, if not 0%.

I'm sure the Lord doesn't intentionally alter the amount of help He is going to give just because the act would be documented... that wouldn't make sense! We certainly have devoted, sincere Christians asking for this; I don't see what more is necessary (unless I've missed something, please point it out)...

So please help me understand these discrepancies I have noticed in prayer.

Yes, of course.

Would you be willing to do a few things to make sure that it's not all a figment of your imagination? It's hard to believe that you could be wrong about this, but it's always nice to make sure...

On the discussion that began around free will:
I take free will on faith, and I think there's nothing that can be identified as freewillitude by experiment. As ESY puts it, free will is the "game-theoretical unit of moral responsibility"... not an object, but a quantity.

Since I have no well-defined religious, political, philosophical, or epistemological definition or beliefs of free will, I will steer clear of the subject, if you please.

 

[Homie]

Let's get a large of group of Christians for a prayer circle (for they have faith and can sincerely talk to God and ask Him for his divine aid)

People´s faith are weaker than you might think, even the Apostles of Jesus himself were lacking in faith. Here is an excerpt from Matthew in the New Testament:

When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."

17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

I know you probably don´t like when people quote from the Bible, but this is a discussion on why God does or does not answer prayer, so it only makes sense to consult the Bible.

 

[Defiant47]

People´s faith are weaker than you might think, even the Apostles of Jesus himself were lacking in faith. Here is an excerpt from Matthew in the New Testament:

I know you probably don´t like when people quote from the Bible, but this is a discussion on why God does or does not answer prayer, so it only makes sense to consult the Bible.

Actually, this is a discussion on why God does or does not answer Christian prayer, so it makes sense to consult the Bible. If we were to evaluate all prayer, we'd have to search through a whole bunch of holy books. [/nitpick]

Before you can quote anything in the Bible, I'd like to impose a little restriction. I'd like you to give me the answer to the question: Do you take the Bible completely literally or not? (though I'm not pretending like this might not spark additional discussion )

Now, back to the prayer discussion, are you saying these prayers will fail because people are of insufficient faith? What if we got the most devoted, and as many as possible; some are bound to have enough faith! Although I know it's a long road to be one with God and to absolve oneself from sin, I'm sure there are a few that have been very successful and could be rightly described as "of much faith".

 

[Xyan]

It is a vicious cycle isn't it?

If prayers were clearly answered, then there will be faith. Yet without faith, prayers are not answered.

 

[LightFang]

@Homie: Also don't forget that Saulus or Peter denied Jesus three times and stuff.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

How do you explain the fact that people of other faiths also pray, believe that god(s) hears them, answers their prayers, and overall have exactly the same experience with prayer as a Christian has, when they are praying to a false god?

As I understand it, according to most denominations, if you have heard of Jesus you MUST believe in him (and for Catholics you also have to buy into 100% of what the Church teaches) or you are going to hell. Why does your god care more about our opinion of him than the content of our characters? Isn't this kind of a juvenile attitude to attribute to a supreme being?

If you believe that sharing most or all of your belief is essential to save people from Hell, what means are you willing to go to to save someone's soul? At what point has someone gone "too far" with their evangelism?

 

[Homie]

Do you take the Bible completely literally or not?

I read the Bible as it was meant to be read, the way it has been read for centuries all up until this last century where we try to explain everything away through all this ridiculous "interpretation". I.e. I read the Bible literally, although there are parts that are obviously figurative and poetic. Example:
When Solomon in the Song of Songs talks about his lover´s breasts as gazelles I take that figuratively. Obviously she didn´t have the mammal gazelle for breasts, it is probably some cultural/temporal reference to beauty that is lost on us but obvious to the Hebrew reader thousands of years ago.
Now, when the Bible says that Noah lived 950+ years and that Jesus walked on water, I believe that literally, because that is what the text obviously is trying to communicate, however unbelievable it may sound.

Now, back to the prayer discussion, are you saying these prayers will fail because people are of insufficient faith? What if we got the most devoted, and as many as possible; some are bound to have enough faith! Although I know it's a long road to be one with God and to absolve oneself from sin, I'm sure there are a few that have been very successful and could be rightly described as "of much faith".

Well, if you can find them, then yeah I am sure that would work. Let me tell you this: In fear of being proud and arrogant, I still say that I have more faith than most, and I definitively believe God could move a mountain before my eyes right now, if He so desires. Yet I seriously doubt that a mountain will be moved before my eyes, even if I prayed for it. Why would I doubt it when it says so in scripture? All I have to do is have faith, and I do! Yet when push comes to shove I really don´t think I´ll see a miracle, I lack faith, I have doubt. St. Peter had great faith, he even walked on water, but then he started to doubt, and started to sink. The Israelites saw great miracles in the desert, but the second they encountered hardship they completely forgot about the miracles it seems, because they turned to false gods (idols made with man´s hands) and worshiped them instead.

 

[Homie]

It is a vicious cycle isn't it?

If prayers were clearly answered, then there will be faith. Yet without faith, prayers are not answered.

You would think wouldn´t you? People forget fast. The Bible is full of stories of individuals and peoples that have been exposed to miracles, only to doubt God not much later. The Apostles saw many miracles when they were with Jesus, yet they doubted His resurrection when Mary and the other ladies told of seeing Him three days after He died, even though He told them He would rise from the dead before He died.

How do you explain the fact that people of other faiths also pray, believe that god(s) hears them, answers their prayers, and overall have exactly the same experience with prayer as a Christian has, when they are praying to a false god?

I don´t believe that is a fact, I believe it is your assumption, and not a fact at all.

As I understand it, according to most denominations, if you have heard of Jesus you MUST believe in him (and for Catholics you also have to buy into 100% of what the Church teaches) or you are going to hell. Why does your god care more about our opinion of him than the content of our characters?

The more I read the Bible, read articles about it, and ponder and think about it myself, the less I am certain of exactly how salvation works. This may sound like a cop out, but I am not fully sure how salvation works. All I know (and this rings true throughout the Bible) is that my safest bet is to love God with all my soul, and love my neighbor as myself, and actually live as if that were true.

If you believe that sharing most or all of your belief is essential to save people from Hell, what means are you willing to go to to save someone's soul? At what point has someone gone "too far" with their evangelism?

I hardly believe going too far is a problem today, people are not going far enough. I would say going too far would be to force someone to make a (false) profession of faith. Of course that would benefit no one, so I don´t see why a Christian would do it, because God would know it wasn´t a real profession of faith. And frankly, I don´t even try to "preach" to people who are not open to the message because I believe nothing good can come of it. If they don´t WANT to listen with an open mind there is no point in talking to them about the Gospel. Also, the Bible supports my position on this: When Jesus sends out the 70(?) disciples to spread the word He says that if any town will not receive them they should leave and wipe off the dust from their feet. I am assuming that is a custom to show that you want nothing to do with that town.

I hope that answers your questions

 

[Homie]

@Homie: Also don't forget that Saulus or Peter denied Jesus three times and stuff.

Thanks. It was Peter BTW. But I don´t think that is an example of lack of faith but rather of fear of man. Peter feared man more than God, and He wasn´t as loyal to Jesus as he (previously) thought he was.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

I don´t believe that is a fact, I believe it is your assumption, and not a fact at all.

A fact in asmuch as your experience is a fact. I've talked to people of multiple faiths and gotten more or less the same response. Thus my conclusion is based on the same anecdotal evidence as I have for your experiences. You're free to discount that outright of course. I certainly do.

 

[Xyan]

You would think wouldn´t you? People forget fast. The Bible is full of stories of individuals and peoples that have been exposed to miracles, only to doubt God not much later. The Apostles saw many miracles when they were with Jesus, yet they doubted His resurrection when Mary and the other ladies told of seeing Him three days after He died, even though He told them He would rise from the dead before He died.


I don´t believe that is a fact, I believe it is your assumption, and not a fact at all.

Coming from a multi-religious society, I think I can safely say that I do believe in miracles. I witness them. The only problem is that there is no one religion with has the monopoly on miracles.

Hence, I can only conclude the miracles are possible because it is inherently in human's capacity. But it cannot be due to mere faith in God. Something else is at work.

Jesus may very well had performed miracles. But from his point of view, he can only attribute it to God as he cannot know about miracles happening in other parts of the globe.

 

[Sidhe]

Well said MobBoss. The Questions are geared towards Christians. Not to Atheists or non-Christians.

As I said if you don't want free and open discussion go join a forum where you don't have to be subjected to diverse opinions. Otherwise I am going to give my opinion if I think it's relevant whether I am a Christian or not. Just as people do on all the other ask threads, you have no right to special treatment, just because your massively over sensitive about your religion, and don't care for open discussion. If you want to give yourselves rights and rules that no other thread has, go complain to the mods and ask them to delete all posts by non Christians, so you can go on reaffirming your cozy beliefs without the need to read posts from people who believe in a discussion being abut views and opinions, not what a small minority of Christians want a thread to be.

Now if you could kindly stop giving yourself and this thread heirs and graces, it's no different from any other thread of this type. Or we could go through every ask a thread and delete all the opinions given by non title participants, so that all the threads contain only what you want them to contain, thus robbing a thread of any longevity and or interest to anyone.

Let's reiterate though for the hard of thinking. I don't care about what you think the rules of discussion should be, only about what they are.

 

[scy12]

Why does God allow evil in the world ?


( Sounds like a simple question but every answer one can give to this question will only lead to more questions.).

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Sidhe, the problem isn't that there is frank and open discussion, the problem is that you are trying to give answers to what Christians believe. In all the other threads, those who are described by the OP are considered to have better answers than those who aren't, and you won't generally see long discussions about Iran between two Canadians in the Ask a Persian thread.