Ask a Dutchman!

[Tahuti]

So how did the Southern Netherlands become Frenchified then? Education? French immigration?

Also, it looks as if the creation of Belgium was yet another example of Britain's complete inability to understand them foreign parts beyond the Channel.

Before Wallonia was linguistically French, most Walloons spoke a language of their own very closely related to French, ever since the beginning of the Middle Ages, much as France itself had a number of regional languages closely related to Standard French as well, even though they are now extinct. In the Middle Ages through early Modern times, French was the language of the nobility of all of the Netherlands (including the North, until the late 1500s Dutch revolution), even during Spanish and Austrian rule.

Its a very rough guess, but the Walloons probably adapted their speech from the nobility, who in turn adapted it from France. And during the French revolutionary period, most of today's Belgium became part of France for a prolonged time. Though that's probably inconsequential.

 

[anandus]

Being merchants would've helped?

No, lacking aristocracy (and thus a culture of courtely manners) would've helped

 

[Takhisis]

Before Wallonia was linguistically French, most Walloons spoke a language of their own very closely related to French, ever since the beginning of the Middle Ages, much as France itself had a number of regional languages closely related to Standard French as well, even though they are now extinct. In the Middle Ages through early Modern times, French was the language of the nobility of all of the Netherlands (including the North, until the late 1500s Dutch revolution), even during Spanish and Austrian rule.

Its a very rough guess, but the Walloons probably adapted their speech from the nobility, who in turn adapted it from France. And during the French revolutionary period, most of today's Belgium became part of France for a prolonged time. Though that's probably inconsequential.

Not so inconsequential, as the French Republic in its blind nationalism did their very best to make all citizens become nationals.

No, lacking aristocracy (and thus a culture of courtely manners) would've helped

I'm not that sure.

 

[Tahuti]

Not so inconsequential, as the French Republic in its blind nationalism did their very best to make all citizens become nationals.

What I meant with inconsequential was that the Walloons probably already spoke French by the time the French republic came to them.

 

[Agent327]

Well, as long as you take into account that French is to Walloon as Flemish is to Dutch: similar, but not just quite the same.

 

[Jan H]

Well, as long as you take into account that French is to Walloon as Flemish is to Dutch: similar, but not just quite the same.

I don't think that's true. The "real" Walloon (which very few people still speak) is a separate language, from the same family as French (the "Langue d'Oil"). It"s more accurate to compare it to the relation between Dutch and Frisian, or perhaps Limburgish.

 

[Jan H]

In the Middle Ages through early Modern times, French was the language of the nobility of all of the Netherlands (including the North, until the late 1500s Dutch revolution), even during Spanish and Austrian rule.

Yes, already in the 13th and 14th century, the counts of Flanders, who were involved in the revolt against their French overlords, were french-speaking.

 

[Agent327]

I don't think that's true. The "real" Walloon (which very few people still speak) is a separate language, from the same family as French (the "Langue d'Oil"). It"s more accurate to compare it to the relation between Dutch and Frisian, or perhaps Limburgish.

Umm... Frisian is the Netherlands second official language. (It's actually closer to English than to Dutch, and it's older than German.)

 

[Takhisis]

^Also, Famke Janssen.

 

[Dachs]

That's also why the UK guaranteed the independence of the new Belgian kingdom (and you know what that lead to in 1914...)

Actually, that guarantee was not just a British guarantee; every signatory made it, and it was contingent on a four-power conference.

This is (one reason) why the British did not include Belgium in their ultimatum to Germany as a casus belli, others including the fact that the British were themselves preparing to violate Belgian and Dutch neutrality anyway if the government in Brussels didn't play well with others.

 

[Tahuti]

Umm... Frisian is the Netherlands second official language. (It's actually closer to English than to Dutch, and it's older than German.)

But that's exactly what Jan H meant. Walloon is a language separate from French as Dutch is from German. But only few Walloons still speak it.

 

[Agent327]

Dutch is closer related to German than to Frisian. To make things more confusing, East Frisians are the Belgians of Germany (they have East Frisian jokes like the Dutch have jokes about Belgians).

 

[innonimatu]

How is the talk about the great european Euro crisis there now? Heard that the dutch were finally becoming aware that they had this little debt bubble also. So I'm wondering how stable are the banks there and how "pro-austerity" is the dutch government likely to remain in the future.

 

[Tahuti]

Dutch is closer related to German than to Frisian. To make things more confusing, East Frisians are the Belgians of Germany (they have East Frisian jokes like the Dutch have jokes about Belgians).

True. Dutch descended from Lower Frankish which itself originated from Old German, alongside Swabian and Bavarian which formed the basis for Hochdeutsch, which together with Allemanic and other lower German languages (but not Lower Frankish, which became Dutch!) became Modern German. However, the existence of Frisian predated Old German and therefore Dutch.

In fact, Frisian is more closely related to English than to either Dutch or German. For example, the Frisian word "foks" means "fox" and pronounced in exactly the same way, while the Dutch equivalent, as you know, would be "vos".

How is the talk about the great european Euro crisis there now? Heard that the dutch were finally becoming aware that they had this little debt bubble also. So I'm wondering how stable are the banks there and how "pro-austerity" is the dutch government likely to remain in the future.

Well, the Netherlands has one of the highest total debt per capita in the world, in part because of the mortgage interest rate deduction, or "hypotheekrente aftrek". In fact, I believe it even excedes the level of debt of Japan and Greece. However, this has never been a problem because Dutch banks are perceived as highly stable, and Dutch government debt is relatively low.

However, there are worries about this arrangement, and the new Rutte II cabinet significantly curtailed the mortgage interest deductions, though doesn't plan to have it completely eliminated it (which is I think insane, as I believe it should be completely eliminated, though apparently only GreenLeft is the only party that agrees with me one this). It is quite popular because it allows legal residents of the Netherlands to cut income taxes in absolute amount by the amount of interest paid for home mortgages. Former Conservative Liberal Frits Bolkestein recently said that the European deficit rate of 3% could be ignored, and several Dutch government bodies such as the CBS (the statistics bureau) said that further cuts could be potentially harmful. So there might some possibility that the Netherlands, despite having Conservative Liberal party in its coalition, may become part of the pro-spending camp alongside France.

 

[Takhisis]

In fact, Frisian is more closely related to English than to either Dutch or German. For example, the Frisian word "foks" means "fox" and pronounced in exactly the same way, while the Dutch equivalent, as you know, would be "vos".

/f/ and /v/ are a pair, voiceless/voiced labiodental fricatives respectively, and isn't the letter v pronounced /f/ in Dutch anyway?

 

[PaxImperator]

/f/ and /v/ are a pair, voiceless/voiced labiodental fricatives respectively, and isn't the letter v pronounced /f/ in Dutch anyway?

The letter v shouldn't be pronounced /f/ in Dutch, but it often is. Dutch /v/ and /f/ are more alike than English /v/ and /f/, which is why you often can't hear the difference in Dutch. This is one of those things that native speakers of Dutch don't really seem to notice. I didn't even notice it myself until I had started studying English.

It's become a pet peeve of mine how 'vakbonden' is often pronounced. Sounds more like 'f-word unions' than 'trade unions'. /v/ is especially prone to being realised as /f/ in close proximity to voiceless consonants, as is the case in 'vakbonden'.

 

[Agent327]

You are referring to vulgar pronunciation, which often deviates from what is taught in school. When talking fast - as some people tend to - it is clear how such a consonant development may occur.

However, there are worries about this arrangement, and the new Rutte II cabinet significantly curtailed the mortgage interest deductions, though doesn't plan to have it completely eliminated it (which is I think insane, as I believe it should be completely eliminated, though apparently only GreenLeft is the only party that agrees with me one this). It is quite popular because it allows legal residents of the Netherlands to cut income taxes in absolute amount by the amount of interest paid for home mortgages. Former Conservative Liberal Frits Bolkestein recently said that the European deficit rate of 3% could be ignored,

Well, actually what he said was it shouldn't be considered "sacred". Which is basically recognizing what is now fact.

and several Dutch government bodies such as the CBS (the statistics bureau) said that further cuts could be potentially harmful. So there might some possibility that the Netherlands, despite having Conservative Liberal party in its coalition, may become part of the pro-spending camp alongside France.

I don't see that happening yet. "Budget cutting" has been popular for several governments now, following the international trend. But at least some thoughts about an alternative are being aired now. Until recently even economists weren't very outspoken about whether long term budget cutting actually helps reduce or actually prolongs the current crisis. Since the government, even in the Netherlands, is a significant part of employment, I don't quite see how reduced expenditure (especially when consumers are already spending less) will be beneficial to an economic recovery. One has to keep in mind though that we are primarily still a trade nation and government policy will have little effect on that, as it depends for a large part on international trade, which has shown a marked slump.

As per Dutch banks being solid, the fact that the two largest banks had to rely on significant government support during the financial crisis should also be kept in mind. When push comes to shove there's no such thing as a "safe" bank or a bank that's "too big to fail".

Which gives an odd contradiction in government policy over recent years: there's been a solid refusal to spend extra to try and help economic recovery, but there seems to be no hesitation at all when it comes to spending to keep big banks afloat.

 

[dutchfire]

How is the talk about the great european Euro crisis there now? Heard that the dutch were finally becoming aware that they had this little debt bubble also. So I'm wondering how stable are the banks there and how "pro-austerity" is the dutch government likely to remain in the future.

The government getting some sense? I don't see that happening soon.

 

[Takhisis]

The letter v shouldn't be pronounced /f/ in Dutch, but it often is. Dutch /v/ and /f/ are more alike than English /v/ and /f/, which is why you often can't hear the difference in Dutch. This is one of those things that native speakers of Dutch don't really seem to notice. I didn't even notice it myself until I had started studying English.

It's become a pet peeve of mine how 'vakbonden' is often pronounced. Sounds more like 'f-word unions' than 'trade unions'. /v/ is especially prone to being realised as /f/ in close proximity to voiceless consonants, as is the case in 'vakbonden'.

Throw IPA phonetics at me, no problem. 'Vakbonden' sounds a lot like 'vagabonds'.

Which gives an odd contradiction in government policy over recent years: there's been a solid refusal to spend extra to try and help economic recovery, but there seems to be no hesitation at all when it comes to spending to keep big banks afloat.

Spillover economics all over again.

 

[The_J]

Would it be possible that somebody helped me translating some Dutch stuff into English (google translate doesn't help due to typos) and some custom text back ?

Seems I'm in the lucky position to always find the 1 person around who doesn't speak English :/. My coworker who normally helps me with that will not be there tomorrow, else I would not ask.
(nothing important, but I want to have it done)