Ask a Mormon, Part 3

[holy king]

As far as charges of mental illness, I don't think there is any evidence for it unless we assume that everyone who claims to talk to God is mentally ill.

well, if he talks back it most probably is a form of "illness". (one that may very well still give you the possibilty to not be dangerous to society/yourself or even function within it like the norm. so it's more of a mental "problem" then...)
that may either have neurological or psychological reasons.

 

[Methos]

going after the printing press is a sign of weakness and a sin (vanity).

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

well, if he talks back it most probably is a form of "illness". (one that may very well still give you the possibilty to not be dangerous to society/yourself or even function within it like the norm. so it's more of a mental "problem" then...)
that may either have neurological or psychological reasons.

That is possible; but you can't really assume that anyone who talks to God is thus mentally ill, and go on to say that someone's claims of talking to God must be false because they are clearly caused rather by mental illness.

going after the printing press is a sign of weakness and a sin (vanity).

That is very possible. We never claimed Joseph Smith was perfect, and he made plenty of mistakes in his life.

 

[Chazumi]

"Weird" is such a relative term that I am not sure how it has any meaning. Lots of things that make a lot of sense seem weird to those who don't understand the principles behind them

Then let me replace that with strange, or suspicious that he would do it from behind curtains instead of letting others see the plates and his translation of them. I am just wondering what your thoughts are of this, I have often asked my wife these kinds of questions, she gets pretty upset sometimes because I can be mean-spirited but in all honesty I am curious. I mean this is a baby religion by comparison to most and I am just wondering how it works. Did anyone else see the plates? Or the Ummim and Thummin or whatever it was called? What happened to them?

As far as his mental illness, if both his mother and father were diagnosed with them (schizophrenia I believe), then it would seem logical that he had a high chance of having it also, some would say his behavior could be portrayed that way. My uncle has schizophrenia and talks to his hand and tells me how god created him and janet jackson in the stars first. Seriously.

Another question I have is how god made the decision to abolish polygamy the day after the union declared it illegal. IIRC smith always denied that he supported it but document 132 shows that this probably isn't true. I don't remember the date the union abolished it (someone should update wiki with that), but according to what I read he had a revelation from god the very next day and said god told him (or mormons in general) not to practice it anymore. I have just always taken these accounts to seem "weird" or suspicious, seemingly only to serve smith's personal agendas.

Again I am not trying to "bash" mormons I am just curious to your thoughts on this since it's hard to speak honestly to my wife about it. I've been all over the world and mormons tend to be the best educated and "clean-cut" people I have met, just a little too "leave it to beaver" for me.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Okay:

I am not aware that Joseph Smith's parents were ever actually diagnosed with schizophrenia. I don't even know whether such a diagnosis existed back then, but I haven't seen any evidence that they were really considered mentally ill.

While Joseph was translating the plates, no one but him could see them. But after they were finished he showed them to a total of 11 people. Their accounts are published in every Book of Mormon printed. many of these later broke with Joseph over various issues but none recanted their claims to have seen the plates.

Joseph never denied practicing polygamy - although I think the then-RLDS Church for a long time said that it was a later doctrine. It was clear that this practice was never intended to be permanent for all times and places (the Book of Mormon says this). Much is made of the Church getting rid of it in order to become a state, although no one who claims this ever explained, at least not to me, why the Church cared so much about Utah being a state. They don't usually mention the campaign the federal government was waging against the Church, that led to many people being put in prison and property being confiscated. This actually started in the 1880's. And John Taylor, who published the manifesto in 1890 that made it official, mentioned on a number of occasions that he was doing what the Lord had told him and would have kept the practice if commanded by God.

 

[downtown]

Did anyone else see the plates?

Yes, and their testimonies on on the first page of the Book of Mormon.

As far as his mental illness, if both his mother and father were diagnosed with them (schizophrenia I believe), then it would seem logical that he had a high chance of having it also, some would say his behavior could be portrayed that way. My uncle has schizophrenia and talks to his hand and tells me how god created him and janet jackson in the stars first. Seriously.

I don't pretend to be a Joseph Smith expert, but there has been a lot of real, academic research on his life, and I am unaware of any legit historian making the claim that he, or his parents for that matter, suffered from Schizophrenia. If any have, I'd like to see it...i'm honestly not aware of any text that makes that claim.

The guy wasn't perfect. He had an awful temper. He did some stupid things. I do not believe he was a schizo though.

 

[Chazumi]

My wife tells me that if you are very rightous on earth you go to the Celestial Kingdom to become a god or jesus typer person yourself, where you create your own world. Have you ever heard of this? Does this make mormonism technically polytheistic?

DT: 1911 or 1913 Excerpt from Encyclopedia Britanica, I don't think I mentioned this article but I have read other books, and I've read about 50% of the book of mormon.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Like I said before, we don't get a world, we get a universe.

That doesn't make us polytheistic, at least according to my understanding of the word, given that we would always be subordinate to God the Father.

 

[downtown]

My wife tells me that if you are very rightous on earth you go to the Celestial Kingdom to become a god or jesus typer person yourself, where you create your own world. Have you ever heard of this?

Yes, I have heard of this, and yes, we do believe that (although its a little more complicated than just being good on earth). We would argue that we aren't polythestic, because we only worship one God, and thats God.

 

[holy king]

Okay:

I am not aware that Joseph Smith's parents were ever actually diagnosed with schizophrenia. I don't even know whether such a diagnosis existed back then, but I haven't seen any evidence that they were really considered mentally ill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#History

The word schizophrenia—which translates roughly as "splitting of the mind" and comes from the Greek roots schizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-, "mind")[182]—was coined by Eugen Bleuler in 1908 and was intended to describe the separation of function between personality, thinking, memory, and perception.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Ah, there you go.

At any rate, I don't think that mental illness was well understood in 1830. Even if it was, neither Joseph nor his family ever manifested any sypmtoms (other than talking to God, which besides begging the question was actually apaprently common at the time - many people said they had visions.)

 

[Norseone]

So what do you guys think about the FLDS and the guys who live in those compounds? I hear there are quite a few of them.

 

[JeffersonDavis]

why are yall so . .. .. .. .ed up? you weird people

 

[zxcvbnm]

Like I said before, we don't get a world, we get a universe.

That doesn't make us polytheistic, at least according to my understanding of the word, given that we would always be subordinate to God the Father.

Ancient greeks were polytheistic though their gods were more or less the subordinates of Zeus, and all were powerless against Fate.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

So what do you guys think about the FLDS and the guys who live in those compounds? I hear there are quite a few of them.

Well, as I hope is clear by now, we don't practice plural marriage anymore. But given that we once did, we can't really criticize them on that basis alone. What we can do - or me, at least - is criticize them for forcing women into marriage agains their will, expelling men to keep a favorable gender ratio, and severely restricting women. Also, the homemade dresses all the women wear are silly looking.

Ancient greeks were polytheistic though their gods were more or less the subordinates of Zeus, and all were powerless against Fate.

But the other gods had their own agendas, Zeus was just more poweful. As is my understanding. And God isn't powerless against fate, or the laws of the universe, or whatever, it is just that said laws mean that He has to do things that wouldn't be necessary if He were omnipotent as the term is often understood.

 

[Taras Bulba]

... Zeus was just more poweful ...

that is arguable, because Zeus did fear his daughter Athena. He feared that another rebellion would happen and that his children would overthrow his rule (as he did to his fathers) Zeus though Athena would be that God, but lucky for him, she was "on his side," if you will

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Could be, as I said I am no expert. But it is fair to say that neither Zeus nor Athena had as their ultimate goal the immortality and eternal life of man.

 

[Elrohir]

Like I said before, we don't get a world, we get a universe.

Do we get to decide what's moral in our universes? Do I get one, or is being a Mormon a prerequisite to godhood?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

As I hinted in the thread on the problem of evil, at least to my view there is something about morality that is as inherent to the universe as mathematics. In other words, just like 2+2 will always equal 4, some things will always be morally correct, or morally wrong. But on the other hand there are also lots of things that even in our world are moral or immoral depending on the situation.

As far as your second question, it is just like salvation in general. Although everyone must accept the truth and receive the ordinances, performed by someone having the proper authority, it isn't strictly necessary to do it in this life. Given the tiny fraction of humans who have ever lived who were Mormon, or even had the slightest chance of becoming Mormon, it would be unfair otherwise.

 

[Elrohir]

Oh Eran....you guys are never going to get anywhere with an attitude like that. People don't want to be told "Oh, most people will get it, at least in some form, eventually." They want to be told that "Oh no, most people won't. Only people in our special club can...."