Ask a nutter who occupied his uni

[Thoughtful Thug]

Good for you noncon. I don't think you should ask for this thread to be erased.

I wish this was happening in my State. Recently there has been some legislation in the works where it gives more freedom for Universities to act more on a business model, while allowing more upper-middle class students abroad to come and study here. I am not against multi-culturalism, but I am seeing less Americans in our campuses as of late...

 

[tycoonist]

I found the guardian article online.. I don't know if Noncon wants me to link it, but I will say that you could possibly find it yourself if you searched for maybe "guardian" and "31st december 2010" and "university". ACK NINJAD

Very interesting stuff noncon. I remember reading about it at the time. I saw a whole bunch of people doing this in late November when I was going round Universities for interviews and stuff - But to stay there that long shows proper dedication to a cause I feel very strongly about. Thank you

 

[classical_hero]

What is so bad about paying that extra money? From the Australian system is that when you go to uni you get the fees paid off when you find a well paying job, so how much different is that from the experience in the UK?

 

[bhsup]

I found the guardian article online.. I don't know if Noncon wants me to link it, but I will say that you could possibly find it yourself if you searched for maybe "guardian" and "31st december 2010" and "university". ACK NINJAD

Very interesting stuff noncon. I remember reading about it at the time. I saw a whole bunch of people doing this in late November when I was going round Universities for interviews and stuff - But to stay there that long shows proper dedication to a cause I feel very strongly about. Thank you

Holy cow, already the 3rd result is YOUR post.

 

[Arwon]

Nice job nonco! Sorry for the mini-hijack that follows.

What is so bad about paying that extra money? From the Australian system is that when you go to uni you get the fees paid off when you find a well paying job, so how much different is that from the experience in the UK?

If HECS-HELP was tripled without warning from 5K-ish to 15K-ish (that's nearly full-fee for some degrees, incidentally), there would be some pretty substantial outrage.

Even though you don't pay it back til you start earning an income, repayment still kicks in below the median equivalised income for anyone with a kid. The fact that you're losing between 4% and 8% of all taxable income bites a fair bit (at the point where it first kicks in, you instantly lose over 2000 dollars).

Tripled tuition fees would triple the length of the payback time. In my case, if they'd tripled fees at the start of my degree, I'd be left repaying my HECS for 30 years instead of the roughly ten it looks like it will take me.

In the UK, the student loan debt has interest as well, and the repayment is 9% of all income over 15k pounds (that's below the median household income level*). So again, a fairly hefty amount. Sucks when you start looking to take on a mortgage or have kids.

Such a tripling would also discourage some students from lower socio-economic backgrounds from entering uni. Fear of incurring debts is a real thing for people who have experienced, through their familes, financial stress. Even in Australia, I know several people who never went to uni because they didn't want to take on current HECS debt levels, let alone 12 or 15 thousand dollars a year.

*(I'm not sure if 15k pounds would be below the equivalised median for a single person living alone in the UK)

 

[aelf]

nevermind.

 

[Takhisis]

Kudos and all that. Basically you were under siege (no getting in/out, no fresh food/clothes/etc.) and you withstood it. Would suing the state be feasible? They sure as hell deserve to get the book thrown at them -not just Cameron for being a completely incompetent Prime Minister in general but everyone involved who thinks the solution to people complaining is to fix them instead of the problem.

Keep at it 'til the Tories are gone.

Shame on the Liberals forever and ever for eltting these scum into power.

Blinkin Commie. Get out of my country.

Go tae Sco'land where people be brave and hate Cameron on principle.

 

[Camikaze]

Awesome work.

Xmas itself was pretty grim, we were still getting used to it, and one of the private security guards was trying to play "hard man" and kept on threatening us, and using homophobic, racist and sexist language, so we put in a complaint and got him removed.

This confuses me slightly. How exactly do you go about getting a security guard removed, especially when those security guards are presumably there for the express reason of being kinda intimidatory?

 

[Tee Kay]

noncon the hero!

What is so bad about paying that extra money? From the Australian system is that when you go to uni you get the fees paid off when you find a well paying job, so how much different is that from the experience in the UK?

It used to be free.

Also, what Arwon said.

By the way, the Australian system is supported by sucking international students' blood.

This confuses me slightly. How exactly do you go about getting a security guard removed, especially when those security guards are presumably there for the express reason of being kinda intimidatory?

I don't know how he did it but it's awesome.

 

[nonconformist]

What is so bad about paying that extra money? From the Australian system is that when you go to uni you get the fees paid off when you find a well paying job, so how much different is that from the experience in the UK?

A number of things.

First of all, 20% of the university budget is being cut, meaning we're seeing very real job redundancies and course cuts right now.

Secondly, all the people who passed this bill got 100% state subsidised education, so maybe they wouldn't be so hypocritical if they paid their courses back at £9000 PA plus interest.

Thirdly, this is essentially economic warfare against "undesirables" at university; we're gonna see university demographics change-it's going to become a white, middle-class male thing to do.

The lower classes aren't going to want to put themselves in substantial amounts of debt. Most ethnic minorities are from the lower classes.
The greatest attacks on education are in the social sciences and humanities departments, which is where most females study.

Kudos and all that. Basically you were under siege (no getting in/out, no fresh food/clothes/etc.) and you withstood it. Would suing the state be feasible?

I assume you mean the uni, rather than the state?
Not really, since we were infringing civil law, and I still have a few months probation left on this court order.

However, there have been talks of suing councils and the government for breach of contract, duty of care etc.

Keep at it 'til the Tories are gone.

Will do!

This confuses me slightly. How exactly do you go about getting a security guard removed, especially when those security guards are presumably there for the express reason of being kinda intimidatory?

Because, despite being at odds with the uni, we were on good terms with the uni security.
Furthermore, it would have looked *very* bad in the press had they let him continue, and we'd have had legal grounds to take them to court were they facilitating someone who was openly racist,sexist and homophobic.


If anyone wants, I can talk more about the economic measures and solutions wrt to this, or even how it will affect universities in Britain in the near future?

 

[Babbler]

What was your access to computers and the Internet like?

 

[nonconformist]

What was your access to computers and the Internet like?

The university cut off internet to the building specifically, but they're a bit behind on the times, so we purchased a dongle that we could put cash on every so often (it was quite expensive!) to access the net.

However, since we were paying per hour and only had very low bandwidth, internet was only used for networking, sending emails, contacting people etc.

The one exception was new Years when we put on Jools Holland to count us down to midnight.

 

[emzie]

How bad did everyone smell at the end?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Did you have to sleep on the floor? If so, if you did it again, would you bring mattresses?

 

[nonconformist]

How bad did everyone smell at the end?

Bad. And I mean AWFUL.
We got pretty desensitised to it, but one of the campus guards came in and almost choked.

We couldn't really get a washing regimen, it was pretty much scrubbing ourselves down in the sink, with hand sanitiser and water.
Occasional "showers" were taken in which we'd strip down and pour water over ourselves.
I remember going into the toilet one morning to be faced with one of my comrade's , and just being "sup"

Did you have to sleep on the floor? If so, if you did it again, would you bring mattresses?

we had some inflatable lilos and camping matresses, but not enough to go around, so we'd kinda have a mini-rota going.
It wasn't too bad sleeping actually, the biggest issue at night was the cold.

 

[Flying Pig]

A number of things.

First of all, 20% of the university budget is being cut, meaning we're seeing very real job redundancies and course cuts right now.

Secondly, all the people who passed this bill got 100% state subsidised education, so maybe they wouldn't be so hypocritical if they paid their courses back at £9000 PA plus interest.

Thirdly, this is essentially economic warfare against "undesirables" at university; we're gonna see university demographics change-it's going to become a white, middle-class male thing to do.

The lower classes aren't going to want to put themselves in substantial amounts of debt. Most ethnic minorities are from the lower classes.
The greatest attacks on education are in the social sciences and humanities departments, which is where most females study.

I was under the impression that the way it was actually going to work meant that it didn't function like debt - you just paid it off as a fraction of your income provided that you earnt over a certain amount, so you could never be unable to pay. Is that not the case? Interestingly, the British Army have recently announced that they're taking away a lot of the advantages that graduate officers used to enjoy, so they're clearly anticipating fewer of their people going to university.

 

[Truronian]

I was under the impression that the way it was actually going to work meant that it didn't function like debt - you just paid it off as a fraction of your income provided that you earnt over a certain amount, so you could never be unable to pay. Is that not the case? Interestingly, the British Army have recently announced that they're taking away a lot of the advantages that graduate officers used to enjoy, so they're clearly anticipating fewer of their people going to university.

That is the case, but the only people who incur this debt are those from poorer backgrounds whose parents can't afford to pay of their education upfront.

 

[tycoonist]

Well, I'm going to university this year, so all this has affected me quite a bit. I know a lot of people who are not taking a gap year specifically to take advantage of lower fees. Having said that, I am very lucky to have a mother who can afford to send me to university and pay direct out of her own pocket, leaving me with no student debt. It essentially is giving me a £20-30k headstart once I leave university over someone from a poorer background who has to face the prospect of maybe 10 or more years of repaying student loans. This is the situation currently. With the increase in fees, that amount of student debt is going to grow to be about £18-24k larger for a large amount of people, depending on course and course length.

The Tories might have a different face on them than they did in the past, but make no mistake, they still serve the same white upper-middle class they always did.


Of course, the increase in fees and cuts to universities promises many more changes than just more inequality. British universities, currently some of the best in the world (including unarguably two of the very best) are going to lose out to competition from abroard. Students leaving uni with £50k of debt are much more likely to face bankruptcy in their future, and even if they avoid that potential pitfall, how long is it before they will have a comfortable level of income, ready to buy houses or consume services? The knock on effects have simply not been considered. This is the countries future we are talking about. Politically, the Lib Dems have just screwed themselves out of their largest group of supporters for the next twenty years - Sure they might have a taste of power now, but they won't get it again any time soon.

 

[Flying Pig]

That is the case, but the only people who incur this debt are those from poorer backgrounds whose parents can't afford to pay of their education upfront.

You can do that? I thought they deliberately got rid of that, on the grounds that you're going to be paying more than the cost of your course to cancel out those who earn low wages and so get it for free.

 

[nonconformist]

I was under the impression that the way it was actually going to work meant that it didn't function like debt - you just paid it off as a fraction of your income provided that you earnt over a certain amount, so you could never be unable to pay. Is that not the case?

I n theory you're right, but as we know, theory never works in practice.

People are looking very hard at the debt they will incur, and they know that they're gonna hve this over their heads; no matter how much you earn, you're never gonna get rid of it, essentially.

Even in my case, having done it at ~£3000, I will be paying 10% of my income to the state over the course of my lifetime; I know there's no way I am gonna be able to clear that.

The number are fluffed; you start paying over £15,000 at 10%. Added to income tax, that means a student making a base of £15,000 is immediately actually, in real terms, earning £10,000 (not including council taxes etc). The minimum living wage in Britain has been calculated as being over £12,000.

Calculations have shown that less than 50% of people who take out a student loan will ever pay it back during their lifetimes.

Essentially, it favours certain people above others.

Nevermind the disproportionate and savage cuts to teaching budgets (up to 20% in some instances!) which is much overlooked in this whole debate, but is the crux of the matter.

You can do that? I thought they deliberately got rid of that, on the grounds that you're going to be paying more than the cost of your course to cancel out those who earn low wages and so get it for free.

Absolutely, it's a Tory government.

In fact, you get a discount on your fees if you pay up front.