Ask a Philosopher

Well, are you talking about mathematicians here?

Let's say philosophers of mathematics (or fundamental mathematicians, although that term is a bit vague, since everyone likes to call himself that way).

Certainly, among your garden variety topologists and algebraics, most people will probably believe that what they study is in some sense 'real', but that seems to be more something they want to be true, because otherwise their job would sound a lot less useful (and it would be terrible to start your grant applications with 'we study XXX in some arbitrary set of axioms that don't really reflect any kind of reality')

Sadly, I don't know enough philosophers/philosophy of mathematics to determine accurately how popular the various view points are.
 
I did a very quick google on this: http://www.iep.utm.edu/mathplat/

Mathematical platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics. This is unsurprising given its extremely natural interpretation of mathematical practice. In particular, mathematical platonism takes at face-value such well known truths as that “there exist” an infinite number of prime numbers, and it provides straightforward explanations of mathematical objectivity and of the differences between mathematical and spatio-temporal entities. Thus arguments for mathematical platonism typically assert that in order for mathematical theories to be true their logical structure must refer to some mathematical entities, that many mathematical theories are indeed objectively true, and that mathematical entities are not constituents of the spatio-temporal realm.

The SEP, which is my go-to source on philosophy, doesn't seem to say anything similar in the introduction: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism-mathematics/

Dutchfire said:
From my brief encounters with people who study the fundamentals of mathematics, the most popular answer to the question "Does mathematics describe things that really exist" is no.
Maybe a better question would be "is 1+1=2 true even if nobody understood it to be true?" I.e. was it true 200,000 years ago when we were living in caves or whatever and nobody had the foggiest idea about mathematics? It's quite easy to answer your question with "no", but it's much more difficult to answer my question with "no". It's hard for me to accept that "1+1=2" is only true because someone a really long time ago said it was true and everyone just accepted it; it's hard for me to accept that the only reason you can describe population growth with a differential equation, or the diffraction of light with a fourier transform, is because some guy, a really really long time ago, asked us all to pretend for a minute that 1+1 really does equal 2 (even though we all know it's merely a convention, of course!).
 
was "1,696,972 + 356,692 + 1,876,064 + 1,149,826 + 314,619 = 5,394,173" true before I stated it (assuming noone else ever stated it before me)?
 
(I am yet to be convinced there is anything of value in Derrida's corpus)

what

But that is because all 'analytic' mean is 'clear, precise and rigorous'

And in the case of this being the consistent output of philosophical schools, and this being the formalia of subjects being addressed to future students, we will not see another Kierkegaard. As such, I dislike it personally.
 
Kierkegaard wasn't progress? :p He's still studied intensely in literature, theology and philosophy. Less so in the latter of course, but that's because of changed tendencies in the field, as you finely outline. Or is it only in Denmark? It would make sense as such, I admit.

Anyways, the analytical tendency means of course that we will not see similar awesome stuff produced. He's groundbreaking and marvellous and people suck up to him in circlejerks and he damn well deserves it.

In my humble opinion.

Which I will quickly retract I guess. I don't major in philosophy.

I'm just bitter because the few traces of art within philosophy - something quite respective, as provided through eg Nietzsche and Kierkegaard - are being swept away at the hands of the analytic school, one you consider somewhat irrelevant to discuss due to what you actually, perhaps unwittingly, outline as its triumph. The analytical style is still very much less prevalent in France and Germany, as far as I know myself.

Again, I'm not a major, so you may easily dismiss it. Infact I will stand corrected the very instant you correct me, I guess. :p

But one point I will stand to - is it progress dismissing the old style? Sure. From an analytical standpoint. :) 'To reduce absurdly': Plenty of styles and things should be dropped for progress. I mean, art in general is obviously a waste of time. Why even study philosophy? What's the point? Communications or engineering make way more progress. Screw the human condition and actually doing stuff that matters on the way.
 
That reminds me of the old economist debate. Nowadays economics are ruled by math, which is another way for saying strictly analytical style in this context.
This brings us to the hermeneutic problem. Economists try to explain stuff with math, but the actual math going on is the math underlying our brains, our minds and the webs of interaction they build with their physical surroundings and hence also eventually with each other. Naturally, it is out of the question to actually put that stuff into the economic equations. It would be the math of everything rather than of economics.
Economic math by definition means to express something in math with can not be expressed in math. That's the hermeneutic problem. You try to express something with something that can not possibly fit what you are trying to express. But yes, it is rigorous. And pretentious.
It got to the point where if you want to turn in a paper, it better got an equation underlying your thesis. Or people won't even look at it. On the other hand you have people busting your ass with complex equations in some presentation of an economic thesis. It all seems so well-founded with those mathematical symbols and stuff. And don't even think about disagreeing until you know the math of it - and can argue mathematical against it.
But is it logical to assume that all economic science has to always be expressed mathematical?
It is it logical that philosophy has always to be expressed strictly analytically?
Can all that analytical rigorousness not lead to getting the bath water out of the tub with the baby when faced with the hermeneutic problem and when putting this rigorousness to a rather one-dimensional extreme?
That is my question to this thread :)
 
To add: I would argue that when it comes to our experience, how we actually truly see life, we are faced with the hermeneutic problem no matter what obviously. But it seems to me that to express it anyway is at its best nothing but art. An art which may benefit from some analytical practice, but which would be unduly hindered by strict analytics and requires some sort of poesy to shine at its best. The issue just is that this is something far far more harder to master than mere strict logic. At least that is an idea I would like to attach to my question.
 
One of my friends phrase it this way: Philosophy is literature, but analyticists try to make it scientific by reducing it to the formalia of formal logic. They do this pretty much because of a hierarchic view of the faculties, shrouding their worldview with buzzwords such as 'progress'.
 
Economists have built very elaborate mathematical superstructures on foundations that are extremely dubious as descriptions of human behavior. For example, Von Neumann-Morgenstern utility theory lies beneath many economists' equations, but just doesn't come close to reality.

Philosophers are always digging around the foundations, though, so I doubt they have much in the way of that problem. Instead, they've got deep mines that often haven't produced much, yet they keep digging them deeper.
 
Economists have built very elaborate mathematical superstructures on foundations that are extremely dubious as descriptions of human behavior. For example, Von Neumann-Morgenstern utility theory lies beneath many economists' equations, but just doesn't come close to reality.

Well, for instance, I've always interpreted the Supply-Demand curve as a platonic (talking about philosophy) max-profit hypothetical, not as an actual situation that actually exists. I doubt economists themselves think of it as underlying choices people make either. It is simply that those who disregard it when making economic decisions disadvantage themselves, not actually follow it. If people actually did, we wouldn't be needing businessmen and investors to begin with and economic inequalities would be quite nihil.
 
Well, for instance, I've always interpreted the Supply-Demand curve as a platonic (talking about philosophy) max-profit hypothetical, not as an actual situation that actually exists. I doubt economists themselves think of it as underlying choices people make either. It is simply that those who disregard it when making economic decisions disadvantage themselves, not actually follow it. If people actually did, we wouldn't be needing businessmen and investors to begin with and economic inequalities would be quite nihil.
Yeah exactly - ideals like supply and demand and perfect competition are mathematical tools to frame the discussion. When I talk about pricing in my job, everyone is aware that the demand curve is an ideal that can't really be calculated accurately, much less used deterministically -- but we can still use its broad structure in making decisions. For example, we know that some customers have private value above the price we sell at, while others are below (and therefore don't buy our stuff). The concept of the demand curve (and specifically consumer surplus) is valuable to us, because it frames the discussion: "How do we capture consumer surplus?" When demand changes, we talk about it in terms of shifting the demand curve. When production increases or decreases, we talk about this as a shift in the supply curve. The mathematical formalism of Micro-Economics, therefore, gives us the tools to discuss the business logically, and make business decisions rationally. The formalism of the philosophy of ethics, by analogy, surely allows us to do the same thing: to discuss ethics logically, and make ethical decisions rationally.


---
(Also, though unrelated to the discussion of philosophy, I just wanted to reinforce your last sentence: the broad swathe of economics, both academically and in real businesses, is dedicated to understanding how, when and why reality diverges from the mathematical ideals of Econ 101. Where I work, we're trying to understand why customers might buy product A and not B, even though they're both basically the same. If you stop at econ 101 then yes you'll think that it's just a useless mathematical ideal that is merely a pretence, an exercise in intellectual wankery. But the whole point of economics as a discipline beyond the first lesson is describing how reality diverges from those ideals. Why do monopolies form, and what are the consequences of that? How does marketing, as an industry, exist, and how can we account for taste? Can we just call it an error, epsilon, and deal with it probabilistically? Or is it something that's systematic; a cognitive bias that disproportionately leads people one way rather than the other, in which case we might need an extra parameter to describe it or something. Etc etc. This is all very useful stuff and has real world practical uses... It's not just intellectual wankery.)
 
It is it logical that philosophy has always to be expressed strictly analytically?
Can all that analytical rigorousness not lead to getting the bath water out of the tub with the baby when faced with the hermeneutic problem and when putting this rigorousness to a rather one-dimensional extreme?
That is my question to this thread :)

I think I should be clear as to what the 'rigour' to which analytic philosophy aspires actually is. There are a number of facets to this. I'll talk about clarity, precision, and rigour itself.

Firstly, being clear means making it as easy as possible for one's readers to identify one's conclusions and follow one's argument. That is often helped by putting one's points with as little extraneous detail as necessary. Compare:

[In the context of a discussion about 9/11]… this act of naming: a date and nothing more. … [T]he index pointing toward this date, the bare act, the minimal deictic, the minimalist aim of this dating, also marks something else. Namely, the fact that we perhaps have no concept and no meaning available to us to name in any other way this ‘thing’ that has just happened … But this very thing … remains ineffable, like an intuition without concept, like a unicity with no generality on the horizon or with no horizon at all, out of range for a language that admits its powerlessness and so is reduced to pronouncing mechanically a date, repeating it endlessly, as a kind of ritual incantation, a conjuring poem, a journalistic litany or rhetorical refrain that admits to not knowing what it’s talking about.

With:

We often repeat the name ‘9/11’ without thinking much about it. But the words we use can be very revealing. Why do we try to reduce this complex event to such a simple term? Because the event is so complex we cannot capture it properly. Precisely by talking about it in such a simple way, we admit that we don’t really understand it.

The first quote is quite hard to understand. Not only is it hard to find what the author's reasons are for the conclusion he wishes to press upon us, it is hard to see what that conclusion even is. Now, that makes the author seem very clever in certain circles true enough and it's a nice piece of writing. But it is unclear. Imagine reading an entire book written in that style: it becomes quite difficult to have any sort of constructive scholarly debate with the author because one can never be sure what is meant by any particular passage. That is not good for philosophy, or any academic discipline which aims at knowledge. And that is why clarity is a virtue. The second quote is much easier to understand and is intended as a clarification of the first (it is still, probably, false).

What about precision? Precision, in philosophical writing, is part-and-parcel with clarity. If one is imprecise it is very hard to be clear. That is because precision means the absence of vague, hand-wavy conclusions, premises or definitions whenever possible. The antithesis of precision is ambiguity. Imprecise writing can be interpreted in many ways. So, here's an example of an imprecise definition:

By [governmentality] I mean three things:
1. The ensemble formed by the institutions, procedures, analyses and reflections, the calculations and tactics that allow the exercise of this very specific albeit complex form of power, which has as its target population, as its principal form of knowledge political economy, and as its essential technical means apparatuses of security.
2. The tendency which, over a long period and throughout the West, has steadily led towards the pre-eminence over all other forms (sovereignty, discipline, etc.) of this type of power which may be termed government, resulting, on the one hand, in the formation of a whole series of specific governmental apparatuses, and, on the other, in the development of a whole complex of savoirs.
3. The process, or rather the result of the process, through which the state of justice of the Middle Ages, transformed into the administrative state during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, gradually becomes ‘governmentalized’.

This is imprecise because it allows 'governmentality' to be interpreted in many ways. 'Governmentality' is ambiguous - different readers could easily, from the same words, come to understand different things by 'governmentality.' For instance, is governmentality three distinct things, or just one thing? If the former, why use the same word for all three? Just what is this 'very specific form of power' essential to governmentality? Is governmentality a process or is it a result of a process (they're obviously different)? Is governmentality the same as governmentalization? And so on and so forth. The point in this case is not that these questions are unanswerable, but that sympathetic readers can easily answer them in different ways. And this is because of the imprecision - the ambiguity- of the definition. This is pretty obviously problematic: if we mean different things by the terms we use its going to be impossible to have a fruitful debate, no matter how well-spirited we are.

So the heart of precision is unambiguity. This does not only apply to definitions, it also applies to conclusions. Good writing in the analytic style comes out with conclusions which are precise as possible. That is because vague conclusions are impossible to debate fruitfully. Make one's conclusions vague enough and nobody can ever prove them wrong: if there is a problem with some precise formulation of them one can just wave one's hands and say one didn't mean that anyway. When asked what one did mean, one is advised to avoid the question. This seems to me a pretty obviously bad way of doing philosophy: not only does it vitiate debate it also typically distances us from the truth. What we want, ultimately, is something precise - unless we have good reason to think all we can get is vagueness. So, here's an example of that kind of conclusion:

Being and time determine each other reciprocally, but in such a manner that neither can the former - Being - be addressed as something temporal nor can the latter - time - be addressed as a being.

You see the problem? I really don't have the foggiest idea what the author is getting at with this conclusion. I suspect that is not solely a matter of personal ignorance. That makes it pretty much impossible to discuss what has just been said. Even if I was inclined to try, any particular criticism of this conclusion can be dodged by the simple expedient above: "That's not what I meant anyway." Hmm.

So that's clarity and precision. Rigour is the easiest to explain. Rigour means simply not making mistakes - at least not making simple mistakes. There are lists of logical fallacies people don't often dispute. Being rigorous means making sure one's work is not benighted by any of these logical fallacies. Here's an offending example:

Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim.

Here, the author infers from the premise that everyone aims at some good, that there is some good at which all things aim. Well, that's obviously fallacious. Precisely, the problem is 'some good' in the premise is de dicto and 'some good' in the conclusion is de re. Here's an analogy: Everyone in a stadium might clap their hands, but that doesn't mean there is some particular pair of hands everyone claps. It seems to me pretty obvious why we would want to be rigorous in this way. If we aren't rigorous our work is the worse for it. Our arguments don't work, our conclusions don't follow and so on and so forth.

So, I hope by now it is pretty clear what I mean by 'clarity, precision and rigour.' It doesn't mean all philosophy has to be done in the formal notation of a logical calculus. Such a formal notation can be immensely helpful -especially as regards precision and rigour- but it is not necessary. One can be clear, precise and rigorous without it. And hopefully the answer to your question will by now be equally clear. Philosophy does not always have to meet the highest standards of clarity, precision and rigour to be worthwhile. Sometimes, unclear and imprecise philosophy can be immensely worthwhile (Kant's Groundwork springs to mind here). But simultaneously, aspiring to these standards is very important. That is because it makes it much easier -indeed possible- to have constructive debates on the issue in question. It makes it easier to understand, easier to discuss, easier to disprove or support and so on and so forth. If we want to make progress on philosophical problems, that is precisely the sort of outcome we want to engender. I won't go as far to say as we don't lose anything of value when we set such exacting standards (see below), but we progress the core purpose of the discipline: the finding out of answers.

The authors quoted are, in order: Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, Martin Heiddeger and Aristotle.

But one point I will stand to - is it progress dismissing the old style? Sure. From an analytical standpoint. :) 'To reduce absurdly': Plenty of styles and things should be dropped for progress. I mean, art in general is obviously a waste of time. Why even study philosophy? What's the point? Communications or engineering make way more progress. Screw the human condition and actually doing stuff that matters on the way.

See above for a general discussion of your worries. I'm no expert on Kierkegaard, so I can't pronounce on him in particular. I don't really think high standards make it impossible to write excitingly or in an aesthetically pleasing way. But perhaps they do make it harder. So it is possible that we lose something of aesthetic value by insisting on these standards. That's a loss, sure enough. But it is one I gladly bear.

That's not because I think art is a waste of time, not at all. It is because I think there are plenty of place we can find sublime writing: in a book, on the stage, in verse, on film and so on. If philosophy is no longer somewhere we find the highest reaches of aesthetic success (if it ever was...) then that does not mean the death of beauty in writing. I'm inclined to suppose it makes nary a dent in it. Concurrently, high standards make philosophy much better. This means it makes it quickens our understanding of philosophical problems and pushes us towards better solutions. If you think the problems are important (Kierkegaard certainly did) you should think this is important. In fact, I think it is pretty obviously the raison d'etre for philosophy. So I gladly lose a little aesthetic value in philosophy in order to make progress. And progress here is not a hand-wavy buzzword. I mean progress on philosophical problems. The coming to better positions on said problems. And 'better' is also not a hand-wavy buzzword: it means more defensible and more plausible.

I suppose I think this analogy works: it would be nice if engineering papers were written in soaring verse. Engineering is -in one respect- worse off because it is not written in such a style. But what it loses in aesthetics it makes up for in utility. Engineering papers written in dry prose make the discipline of engineering better at coming to engineering discoveries. This hardly drives beauty from other fields, and after all engineering questions are very important. So although engineering is in one respect worse because it is not written in exquisitely crafter verse, it is a cost an engineer should gladly bear. Similarly, the aesthetic cost is one philosophers should gladly bear.
 
There's some bad weight to your argument, which is present in your third-to-last paragraph: High standards. The standards were high before, you just changed priorities.

Your disdain towards eg Foucault's complex use of a complex term ignores that the real world is complex and analytical reductionalism is counterproductive when trying to get your head around complex terms; infact, you merely try to avoid them.

Anyways.

Your own claims of clarity, 'high' standards and 'progress' ignore that progress has already happened; comparing philosophy to engineering is symptomatic of your discourse, one that has changed the nature of a field, not purified it. Philosophy is not engineering. It is not a science. It is not a business. It is not always formal-logically sound and does not have to. Philosophy is a literature, or a field of literature, not a metholodical formalism. It stopped being a science when natural philosophy left, and analyticism should stop making it so. The tendency, to me, has only appeared to being something that analyticists did out of fear it would be overshadowed by supposedly more 'effecient' fields of studies. With hierarchic fallos issues over faculties and somesuch. That you end up comparing it with engineering fails to convince me at all that I should embrace the supposed victory of analyticism.

I wish to applaud you on the post though. It is very well-written and rests well on its examples. Some of them were just not very pleasing to me. I do not like the analyticist direction and you are speaking in its biased language. :)
 
I can't make head from tail what Derrida is driving at w.r.t. 9/11. The simplified explanation underneath certainly makes more sense to me, linguistically anyway. What exactly is gained from writing in such a wanky way? Maybe I'm stupid, or maybe I just don't "get" wanky prose. But to me, it's total juank.

edit: changed word to avoid autocensor.
 
Derrida is one of those people that write smart things that are completely incomprehensible at first read, yes.
 
So what value is there in writing incomprehensibly? Wouldn't it be better if he had written it comprehensibly?
 
I'm not advocating writing like Derrida.

I'm advocating writing like you damn want to.

I'm also advocating not making your texts less complex, which lovett seems to want, for example in the case of Foucault. 'What does it mean when he means three different things!?' Well, three things apparently.
 
There's some bad weight to your argument, which is present in your third-to-last paragraph: High standards. The standards were high before, you just changed priorities.

Your disdain towards eg Foucault's complex use of a complex term ignores that the real world is complex and analytical reductionalism is counterproductive when trying to get your head around complex terms; infact, you merely try to avoid them.

Anyways.

Your own claims of clarity, 'high' standards and 'progress' ignore that progress has already happened; comparing philosophy to engineering is symptomatic of your discourse, one that has changed the nature of a field, not purified it. Philosophy is not engineering. It is not a science. It is not a business. It is not always formal-logically sound and does not have to. Philosophy is a literature, or a field of literature, not a metholodical formalism. It stopped being a science when natural philosophy left, and analyticism should stop making it so. The tendency, to me, has only appeared to being something that analyticists did out of fear it would be overshadowed by supposedly more 'effecient' fields of studies. With hierarchic fallos issues over faculties and somesuch. That you end up comparing it with engineering fails to convince me at all that I should embrace the supposed victory of analyticism.

I wish to applaud you on the post though. It is very well-written and rests well on its examples. Some of them were just not very pleasing to me. I do not like the analyticist direction and you are speaking in its biased language. :)

Well, so you say. I don't think philosophy is a field of literature. That is because literature does not aim at truth. I think philsophy does. I think there are true and false answers to (most) questions like:

  • What is a good life?
  • How should I act?
  • What are moral obligations?
  • What is aesthetic value?
  • What is knowledge?
  • Do I know I'm not a brain in a vat?
  • What is time?
  • What is causation?
  • Is logic classical?
  • Do composite objects exist?
  • Is constitution identity?
  • In virtue of what do I persist through time?
  • Is the mental reducible to the physical?

And I could go on, endlessly. Philosophy -as I conceive it- is about answering questions. Literature is not about answering questions. Literature is about producing works of some value. Often, literature is about producing works of beauty. Sometimes it can be about moving people to do particular things, or sometimes simply affecting them. So the two fields have fundamentally different goals. And obviously I think that trying to combine the two -trying to meet both goals at once- does not help the discharging of either. And given this conception of the field, I think clarity, precision and rigour are exactly the way to go about doing philosophy.

Ok, here's a concession: If you want to use the term 'philosophy' to refer to a certain sub-set of literature I won't complain much. People can use terms as they like, even if it is liable to generate confusion. In this case, I will just say that 'philosophy' has two, quite distinct, meanings. It is it's referent to a truth-apt field of enquiry which interests me. And I would, of course, hold to the fact that those people we normally think of as 'philosophers' are not primarily members of this field in literature. They are philosophers in that they are trying to find the answers to certain questions. They are philsophers in the sense in which I mean 'philosopher'.

Edit: I See You've Brought up Foucault Again: Let me be clear about why I used that quote from Foucault. It was not to express disdain for his thought (note I also quote Aristotle). Nor was it to impose a facile simplicity on the world. Rather, it is a good example of a bloated and imprecise definition. This is important because we have to work with definitions. There are several better ways Foucault could have formulated his definition of governmentality. Here's one: "the rationalisation and systemisation of a particular way of exercising political sovereignty through the government of people’s conduct." Here's another: "A governmentality is an approach to government, very broadly." These don't elide the complexity of the world. But they are much easier to understand and much easier to work with. And that is because they are more precise: they do not bring in all the extraneous, inconsistent matter contained within Foucault's own definition. So, for instance, there is no vacillation between whether governmentality is a specific process, or rather the result of that process. And, quite simply, that make it much easier to engage in the ideas therein.
 
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