Ask A Protestant Christian II

[Arakhor]

If Satan has any measure of power enough to confuse men and yet not be swept away by an omnipotent deity, that implies several unpleasant things about God's power or benevolence.

 

[kochman]

If Satan has any measure of power enough to confuse men and yet not be swept away by an omnipotent deity, that implies several unpleasant things about God's power or benevolence.

Well, I don't pretend to understand why Satan is allowed to exist...
Philosophizing some things too deeply is tiring. I just accept certain things as they are...
Judging God is probably not in your best interests, though.

 

[Arakhor]

Why not, Kochman? In my view, it's really simple. I was raised to believing in an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God and he is the only God I would consider worshipping. With that setup, there cannot possibly be room for Satan, despite the Devil appearing in so much of Christian theology.

 

[El_Machinae]

So, it's your belief that the Christian God actually does sometimes order his priests to order their soldiers to commit genocide? And that these commandments from the priests shouldn't infringe upon the "natural law" men have written on their hearts, because God is the source of that natural law?

And that the Aztec priests "should have known" that what they were doing was wrong, but that the Israelite soldiers who were stabbing babies "should have known" that they were doing the right thing, and not experienced problems with their conscience?

 

[GamezRule]

When someone can show me a person who is fair in all of their doings without any hint of a selfish motive, then we can start to reason why God cannot be fair and just without being jealous or selfish. God is not an example to live by. We will never be perfection that He is. Trying to hold Him to our standards are as useless.

But according to you, "our" standards are "his" standards. So God doesn't even obey his own laws.

 

[timtofly]

If Satan has any measure of power enough to confuse men and yet not be swept away by an omnipotent deity, that implies several unpleasant things about God's power or benevolence.

Satan really only confuses those who know enough of the truth to make it twistable. He does not have to do anything to those who do not, and he is powerless against those who know the Truth. Most people deceive their own selves more than satan will. If one starts calling benevolence evil, are they deceiving themselves?

 

[Agent Cooper]

The whole concept of Satan and his influence over the human race, be it working in the shadows or in the open, appears to me to be a tool 'invented and enhanced for the occasion'.

The occasion being control - control over your flock. If they don't adhere by the scriptures (meaning what the priests tells us the scriptures say), eternal damnation awaits. And bad events carried out by evil men, are under Satans spell. Etc...etc.

I'm a spiritual person myself but I am not religious. I don't believe the physical death is the end but I don't believe in any of the various religious versions of what awaits in the 'afterlife'.

Actually, imo the most interesting new knowledge about what could possible await us after death, might come from studies carried out under scientific scrutiny. Near-death experiences, out of body experiences studies usually carried out by doctors and researchers with no religious preferences.

If current research is any indication, we have nothing to fear no matter what faith you chose to adhere to or not. What happens, happens to all of us. Every human being that ever lived.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Where do you stand with regards to science/religion, not necessarily science vs religion?

 

[timtofly]

"For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Timothy, 2:5)

According to the Bible, either Allah and Jehovah are both God or neither of them exist.

A historian could also look back at Islam and the RCC as two opposing forces that tried to gain followers.

But according to you, "our" standards are "his" standards. So God doesn't even obey his own laws.

No, but before this becomes circular reasoning. God calls the shots on everything. He sets the standards and He can choose to break those standards. He exist outside the standards, not bound by them. He figured out gravity, and one day He has the right to defy gravity....

 

[GamezRule]

No, but before this becomes circular reasoning. God calls the shots on everything. He sets the standards and He can choose to break those standards. He exist outside the standards, not bound by them. He figured out gravity, and one day He has the right to defy gravity....

So you have effectively said that God is the equivalent to a murderous dictator who also "loves" his people.

 

[kochman]

Why not, Kochman? In my view, it's really simple. I was raised to believing in an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God and he is the only God I would consider worshipping. With that setup, there cannot possibly be room for Satan, despite the Devil appearing in so much of Christian theology.

I agree He is the only one I would worship!
I don't see why there can not be room for Satan if God doesn't allow it...
I think of it as some sort of cosmic test almost... the whole existence we live.

So, it's your belief that the Christian God actually does sometimes order his priests to order their soldiers to commit genocide? And that these commandments from the priests shouldn't infringe upon the "natural law" men have written on their hearts, because God is the source of that natural law?

And that the Aztec priests "should have known" that what they were doing was wrong, but that the Israelite soldiers who were stabbing babies "should have known" that they were doing the right thing, and not experienced problems with their conscience?

1) I didn't know you were there to see Jewish soldiers stabbing babies... but whatever happened... The Christian God is different, in a sense... The OT God was different, God can also change. I believe that He changed for a kinder version with the Jesus episode...

The whole concept of Satan and his influence over the human race, be it working in the shadows or in the open, appears to me to be a tool 'invented and enhanced for the occasion'.

The occasion being control - control over your flock. If they don't adhere by the scriptures (meaning what the priests tells us the scriptures say), eternal damnation awaits. And bad events carried out by evil men, are under Satans spell. Etc...etc.

I'm a spiritual person myself but I am not religious. I don't believe the physical death is the end but I don't believe in any of the various religious versions of what awaits in the 'afterlife'.

Actually, imo the most interesting new knowledge about what could possible await us after death, might come from studies carried out under scientific scrutiny. Near-death experiences, out of body experiences studies usually carried out by doctors and researchers with no religious preferences.

If current research is any indication, we have nothing to fear no matter what faith you chose to adhere to or not. What happens, happens to all of us. Every human being that ever lived.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Where do you stand with regards to science/religion, not necessarily science vs religion?

1) Are you a Protestant? If so, what denomination or basic belief structure do you follow? If not, you are posting in the wrong thread.
2) Can you be more specific about science/religion? The basic answer is, science is great! There are things that science cannot explain.

So you have effectively said that God is the equivalent to a murderous dictator who also "loves" his people.

No, he didn't say that. He said God is outside... He is not a human, He is God.
This is not a hard concept.
God can do as He pleases, and it is best not to try to cast judgment upon God.

 

[Traitorfish]

Philosophizing some things too deeply is tiring. I just accept certain things as they are...

Y'know, I've never seen somebody try to justify intellectual laziness with actual laziness before. It's almost refreshing in its honesty.

 

[Arakhor]

If God is all-loving, it stands to reason that he would not allow to exist a cosmic entity devoted purely to ruining his creation. If he is all-powerful, it stands to reason that he could enforce his will absolutely. Therefore, there is no such thing as Satan and various churches postulate his existence to control the masses and "explain" human failings.

 

[El_Machinae]

1) I didn't know you were there to see Jewish soldiers stabbing babies.

Ah! See, that's a reasonable answer, imo. If I worshiped the Creator, when presented with the moral paradox of God ordering the murder of infants, I would reply: in the specific case of Canaan, that event was a myth (the Hebrews did not conquer Canaan, they were Canaanites), and there's no evidence that God actually ordered any specific genocide described in later texts.

There's no evidence that God ordered a priest to order soldiers to murder babies. Just because the OT claims that it happened, it doesn't mean that it happened. And, for that reason, there's no reason to justify it. Rulers have been justifying evil for thousands of years by claiming that they had the gods' blessing.

I'm often surprised at the moral contortions by the non-literalists to justify God-ordered human sacrifices, when there's no more reason to believe that God ordered those human sacrifices than He flooded the world.

As you say, the God of Jesus is very different from the God in the OT. Instead of apologising for the OT god, it's more obvious (imo) to suggest that the God of the OT was not presented factually.

 

[timtofly]

So you have effectively said that God is the equivalent to a murderous dictator who also "loves" his people.

Spoiler :

Ah! See, that's a reasonable answer, imo. If I worshiped the Creator, when presented with the moral paradox of God ordering the murder of infants, I would reply: in the specific case of Canaan, that event was a myth (the Hebrews did not conquer Canaan, they were Canaanites), and there's no evidence that God actually ordered any specific genocide described in later texts.

There's no evidence that God ordered a priest to order soldiers to murder babies. Just because the OT claims that it happened, it doesn't mean that it happened. And, for that reason, there's no reason to justify it. Rulers have been justifying evil for thousands of years by claiming that they had the gods' blessing.

I'm often surprised at the moral contortions by the non-literalists to justify God-ordered human sacrifices, when there's no more reason to believe that God ordered those human sacrifices than He flooded the world.

As you say, the God of Jesus is very different from the God in the OT. Instead of apologising for the OT god, it's more obvious (imo) to suggest that the God of the OT was not presented factually.

The God of the OT demanded Law and Justice. After He died on the Cross, He allowed grace. I am not sure why people feel cheated that they do not have to live under the Law. The Law called for gods and death and suffering and pain.

Even during grace mankind is still cruel, selfish, bigots, racist, evil loving, warmongers who seem to care less about a God who sits back and lets people get away with murder. To me it seems people just like to make excuses. They say He is unjust when He is longsuffering and they call Him a Dictator when He bring swift justice.

 

[Traitorfish]

They say He is unjust when He is longsuffering and they call Him a Dictator when He bring swift justice.

Then, to paraphrase Eddie Izzard, why didn't he just reach down from heaven in 1933 and flick Hitler's head off? Twelve years of genocide followed by suicide isn't what I would understand as a particularly swift or divine retribution.

 

[timtofly]

Spoiler :

The whole concept of Satan and his influence over the human race, be it working in the shadows or in the open, appears to me to be a tool 'invented and enhanced for the occasion'.

The occasion being control - control over your flock. If they don't adhere by the scriptures (meaning what the priests tells us the scriptures say), eternal damnation awaits. And bad events carried out by evil men, are under Satans spell. Etc...etc.

I'm a spiritual person myself but I am not religious. I don't believe the physical death is the end but I don't believe in any of the various religious versions of what awaits in the 'afterlife'.

Actually, imo the most interesting new knowledge about what could possible await us after death, might come from studies carried out under scientific scrutiny. Near-death experiences, out of body experiences studies usually carried out by doctors and researchers with no religious preferences.

If current research is any indication, we have nothing to fear no matter what faith you chose to adhere to or not. What happens, happens to all of us. Every human being that ever lived.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Where do you stand with regards to science/religion, not necessarily science vs religion?

Science is a great way to explore God's creation. It is miserable when used to figure out God.

Then, to paraphrase Eddie Izzard, why didn't he just reach down from heaven in 1933 and flick Hitler's head off? Twelve years of genocide followed by suicide isn't what I would understand as a particularly swift or divine retribution.

It was a heck of a way to reboot the Israeli Nation?

 

[Ajidica]

It was a heck of a way to reboot the Israeli Nation?

Not sure if serious......

 

[timtofly]

Not sure if serious......

irrationally or rationally?

 

[GamezRule]

It was a heck of a way to reboot the Israeli Nation?

You have effectively proven that God is in fact Scumbag Steve times infinity.

 

[Traitorfish]

It was a heck of a way to reboot the Israeli Nation?