Ask a Reactionary

Without question the best government for all concerned would be a universal benevolent despotism. The problem is maintaining a series of benevolent despots. Not wanting to be offensive, but I see this 'reactionary' longing for a powerful monarchy as ignoring the reality that most monarchs have in fact been very far from benevolent. In fact the odds seem to lean heavily towards capricious megalomaniacs.

Other than raw hope do you have any suggestions how that would be avoided in this grand step forward into the past?
 
Let's say that the social order that you desire comes into being tomorrow, by magic. What do you predict would be your social status, and would you expect to feel satisfied in it?

Probably much the same as it is now. The great illusion of democracy is that it deceives people into thinking they actually have some stake in the political order through their vote, when in reality their vote is meaningless when it comes to altering the elite who govern society (and even then, ones vote only affects the legislature, not the vast bureaucracy, and the unelected institutions which form the main locus of power). A shifting of factions it may achieve, but your average voter does not have the power to affect fundamental change in the ruling class of a given society (or even alter the ruling ideology, even in America where everything seems so bipolar, your ideological choice is simply between different interpretations of the same fundamentally ideological principles).

What are you currently doing in order to bring said social order into being in real life? Are there any organized movements or whatnot that are attempting to do so?

Various traditionalist views are maintained by various politicians and political parties around the place to a lesser or greater degree. And of course there are groups of people (online and elsewhere) I suppose who associate and engage with eachother on the basis of those beliefs. Certain groups also tend to be more inclined to traditionalism than others (political traditionalists like myself, tend to be over represented amongst traditionalist [in religious terms] Catholics, such as myself, for example, even though the latter is not synonymous or coterminous with the former)

So your emphasis is on tradition, am I correct? Then what traditions do reactionaries such as yourself hold dear, that you feel are being destroyed?

And do you want to protect all traditions? I don't know if the traditions of Australia are that awesome that sticking to them is the best case scenario in all ages, but America used to have a tradition of racism and slavery. I certainly don't want to keep that.

And in India, the caste system and child marriages are two traditions I'd rather not keep either.

First of all, you are confusing tradition with generic custom. They are two distinct albeit related things. Tradition as I noted constitutes that subset of customs which 1) make a moral claim and 2) establishes a bond among those who observe it by 3) allowing the members of the community to collectively recognize some objective good in a culturally particularized way. Your examples of "negative traditions" aren't traditions at all, but rather detrimental customs which were never obligatory and morally binding the way tradition is. One was never morally obliged to have slaves for example in America, and one wasn't bad for not having them. Now a tradition can indeed be corrupted if people lose sight of the good it serves to reveal; in these cases than of course reform and renewal are called for. However dismissal of tradition is a grave error, since then we lose sight of the goods they exist to instantiate in our lived human experiences.

This leads us back to the first question. Which I would answer by referring primarily to religious tradition, and values of modesty and sexual morality. Which in being systematically undermined and damaged have progressively resulted in many people in society losing sight of the goods these traditions served to maintain, such as for example a recognition of the divine order of existence (which lost, has resulted in rampant individualism and egotism, perhaps best epitomised by the current celebrity cult), and the dignity of human persons (as seen by the increased objectification of women) and the devaluation of the human life and the sanctity of the sexual act [seen in contraception, abortion, the surrogacy industry. All of which treat children as accessories secondary to ones transient pleasures, an even as things to be bought and sold). As to the protection of tradition, I believe that each culture should preserve its tradition (its unique way of collectively understanding some good) and that each has a right to exist. I don't believe they are all necessarily equal however.

Without question the best government for all concerned would be a universal benevolent despotism. The problem is maintaining a series of benevolent despots. Not wanting to be offensive, but I see this 'reactionary' longing for a powerful monarchy as ignoring the reality that most monarchs have in fact been very far from benevolent. In fact the odds seem to lean heavily towards capricious megalomaniacs.

On the contrary, a democratic polity is more likely to result in megalomania amongst leaders precisely because the process of getting elected necessarily requires the person to have rampant ambition and an inflated sense of self-worth if they want to get through the top fighting their way through all the factional squabbles the party system entails. Not to mention the empty promises and outright lies politicians to a tee have to engage in if they want to bribe enough people with concessions to beat their opponent. Monarchy then, in which a person becomes head of state solely by providential chance, is far more inclined to induce a sense of humility in leaders. I think this reality can be seen by the numerous crackpot dictators and lunatics who have been elected into office over the years, while one occasionally gets a mad roman emperor (a perfect system being impossible for human beings to achieve), such circumstances are no more or less likely than the people electing a Hitler to office for instance, or getting stuck with a narcissist like Kevin Rudd (such as we had down here in Australia for a while). Not to mention hereditary monarchy is the only system which recognises the equality of all human beings, precisely since one gets the job by random chance and not by virtue of being the best, the most popular or the most intelligent.

Secondly, you also ignore the fact that no leader has completely absolute power. The rule of society and the state is a systemic thing and not entirely invested in a single person or even in the formal organs of government (bureaucracy for example is a powerful force). Thus there are always institutions in place, as was particularly the place in more modern times which had the convenience of easy accessibility across the realm, to ensure things didn't go south. Austria for example, one of the most autocratic empires of old Europe had Emperor Ferdinand I (the benign) who was incapable of ruling due to mental deficiency. The situation was dealt with rather smoothly.

Thirdly, at least in my case I see the monarch as preferably sitting in a repository capacity rather than a legislative one. While I think the monarch should have the power to veto legislation and have control over aspects of foreign policy, I think legislation should best be left to a legislative chamber, be it elected or formed by some other means of selection. A monarch in this repository position (as compared to a president who is elected) is uniquely suited to the role, since his hereditary status makes him independent from outside influences, flattery and coercion, both popular and expert. Something particularly important given sometimes the people need to be reminded when they err.
 
On the contrary, a democratic polity is more likely to result in megalomania amongst leaders precisely because the process of getting elected necessarily requires the person to have rampant ambition and an inflated sense of self-worth if they want to get through the top fighting their way through all the factional squabbles the party system entails. Not to mention the empty promises and outright lies politicians to a tee have to engage in if they want to bribe enough people with concessions to beat their opponent. Monarchy then, in which a person becomes head of state solely by providential chance, is far more inclined to induce a sense of humility in leaders. I think this reality can be seen by the numerous crackpot dictators and lunatics who have been elected into office over the years, while one occasionally gets a mad roman emperor (a perfect system being impossible for human beings to achieve), such circumstances are no more or less likely than the people electing a Hitler to office for instance, or getting stuck with a narcissist like Kevin Rudd (such as we had down here in Australia for a while). Not to mention hereditary monarchy is the only system which recognises the equality of all human beings, precisely since one gets the job by random chance and not by virtue of being the best, the most popular or the most intelligent.

Your argument here amounts to 'democracy is no better in this regard'. I can't really argue that too much, as we have seen plenty of elected lunatics. However I think you downplay the 'occasional mad Roman emperor'. If I recall my history correctly Europe went through more than one period where mad monarchs were more common than not. Monarchy also lends itself far better to use of the state apparatus for the pursuit of personal vendetta, which should be too petty a thing for a nation to go to war over, in my opinion.

Secondly, you also ignore the fact that no leader has completely absolute power. The rule of society and the state is a systemic thing and not entirely invested in a single person or even in the formal organs of government (bureaucracy for example is a powerful force). Thus there are always institutions in place, as was particularly the place in more modern times which had the convenience of easy accessibility across the realm, to ensure things didn't go south. Austria for example, one of the most autocratic empires of old Europe had Emperor Ferdinand I (the benign) who was incapable of ruling due to mental deficiency. The situation was dealt with rather smoothly.

I might be ignoring it because while absolute power may not be available, monarchs have frequently held extremely abusable levels of power, and demonstrated it.

Thirdly, at least in my case I see the monarch as preferably sitting in a repository capacity rather than a legislative one. While I think the monarch should have the power to veto legislation and have control over aspects of foreign policy, I think legislation should best be left to a legislative chamber, be it elected or formed by some other means of selection. A monarch in this repository position (as compared to a president who is elected) is uniquely suited to the role, since his hereditary status makes him independent from outside influences, flattery and coercion, both popular and expert. Something particularly important given sometimes the people need to be reminded when they err.

In this we are back to the value of a figurehead monarch, which I don't dispute. I also have a hard time calling such a system a monarchy though it is, because it is so unlike the traditional authoritarian monarchy. I also wouldn't call such a system 'reactionary' either. If the USA decides to create a king with no particular authority to act as a personification of the nation and names...I dunno...heck...LeBron James to the title I'm fine with it...but I would call that progressive.
 
Well, it seems your vocabulary is much more advanced than mine, but it seems that you are arguing that reactionaries, or at least you believe that people back then were better than people are now. How do you justify that?

I mean, on the surface of it, humanity seems to be in a better place than it was centuries ago. I might be willing to be believe, that as a whole the moral character of mankind hasn't really changed- the issues in which the moral failures of humanity are displayed have though. But I don't believe people of the past were any better than those of today. If you want to argue that they were more social, I would argue that it is the exact opposite- we, this generation, interact more with each other than the people of the past did. We just don't do it face to face, but through social media.

The short argument: People of that time made (much) more of less. I could bring a complex argument, though it would be a tough pill to swallow in terms of amount of text. Would you want to see one?

But for my next question let's assume those values do profit from it. If it could be shown that another kind of governing system did even more so - would you support it?

Probably. It wouldn't be the first time I'd make an ideological shift in my life.

Let's say that the social order that you desire comes into being tomorrow, by magic. What do you predict would be your social status, and would you expect to feel satisfied in it?

As weird as it sound, I expect that I would likely be bourgeoisie, considering I live in a city. Yet, considering my paternal ancestors included religious scholars, I wouldn't be surprised I would also become a scholar myself. That would be satisfying. (that said, to add to the confusion, my maternal ancestors were largely farmers, perhaps a Frisian equivalents of the English yeomans, as well as a local master of the mint). Overall, I wouldn't expect that much of a change compared to my social status now.

I think the mistake is that to believe that the 'reactionary world order' would only be favourable to the aristocracy and the priestly classes. The problem is that a number of social movements and intellectual currents have succesfully convinced people of non-aristocratic descent that other ideologies are better for them, and are the only way to go for them.

What are you currently doing in order to bring said social order into being in real life? Are there any organized movements or whatnot that are attempting to do so?

Kaiserguard, you had stated at various times that you work in the IT industry. It seems that many people in said industry have reactionary views, and describe themselves as the "Dark Enlightenment." Do you consider yourself part of it, and if not, what are your views on it?

There probably are, though I consider those to be contrary to the spirit of this ideology which also is an attitude. I do not vote as a matter of principle. Ocassionally, I find certain right-wing parties attractive, though I figure that actively supporting them would be self-defeating, because you are pandering into democratic structures you cannot lose with honour, let alone win. The best way to ensure return to the pre-modern social order is to improve yourself and your progeny to adopt the values of the pre-modern world. In other words, those that believe in reactionary ideals must outlast modern society. I don't think the Dark Enlightenment gets that.

So your emphasis is on tradition, am I correct? Then what traditions do reactionaries such as yourself hold dear, that you feel are being destroyed?

And do you want to protect all traditions? I don't know if the traditions of Australia are that awesome that sticking to them is the best case scenario in all ages, but America used to have a tradition of racism and slavery. I certainly don't want to keep that.

As mentioned earlier, not all traditions should be resurrected. It is a matter of the values associated to them we wish to return. At one point, every aristocrat was turned into such from the position of commoner. Only the greatest act of bravery shown could possibly enabled such recognition. The problem is that such deeds today aren't really recognised anymore at all.

And in India, the caste system and child marriages are two traditions I'd rather not keep either.

Since I live in North-West Europe, I am primarily focused on traditions of Hebrew-Greek-Latin-Germanic origin, that are most relevant to my locale. That being said, the Indian caste system was significantly more fluid hundreds of years ago, comparable to European social classes - where commoners could be ennobled.

I'm not as knowledgable about child marriage in India, though I wouldn't be surprised we modern Westerners are not fully aware of the pros and cons of this particular tradition to make a judgment.
 
With regards to the American constitution and the Bill of Rights, being Australian, and Australia having a different constitution and no bill of rights whatsoever, and myself having little familiarity with those documents, I don't feel qualified to respond to your query.

Just to clarify on this - Australia does have a Bill of Rights (Bill of Rights 1688 1 Will & Mary, Sess 2 c 2), and its provisions can still be relevant today (e.g. s 9 provides for parliamentary privilege, though this is also enshrined elsewhere). However, there is no federal constitutional bill of rights, as in the US. Both the ACT and Victoria additionally have statutory bills of rights.
 
Without question the best government for all concerned would be a universal benevolent despotism. The problem is maintaining a series of benevolent despots. Not wanting to be offensive, but I see this 'reactionary' longing for a powerful monarchy as ignoring the reality that most monarchs have in fact been very far from benevolent. In fact the odds seem to lean heavily towards capricious megalomaniacs.

Other than raw hope do you have any suggestions how that would be avoided in this grand step forward into the past?

You can't avoid it. It is human nature to be bad and it takes enormous effort to overcome less-than-good urges. That doesn't mean we reactionaries think the ideal human should be a machiavellian sociopath, on the contrary.

However, our beef with democracy and the Enlightenment is that they simply enhance the scale in which human nature can cause damage to innocents, without having made any meaningful progress in containing our vices. If anything, democracy simply redirected them, allowing it to pile up. When Germany turned into a bona fide democracy, it was later followed by Nazism. Idem dito for Italy. The Armenian genocide happened while the Ottoman Empire was democratising. Both Israel and the Palestinian authority are democratic polities. What you currently see in Western Europe is the rise of Far-Left parties (I count figures like Geert Wilders to be Far-Left as well, given their ideology is largely built on democratic nationalism that has origins in Jacobinism, as well as in Geert Wilders' case, a republican attitude) is thus no surprise: A democratic polity with 'checks and balances' simply attempts to flatten out humanity's innate bestial natures, though it will eventually come out, in ways that allowed for such events as the Holocaust.

Your argument here amounts to 'democracy is no better in this regard'...

If the USA decides to create a king with no particular authority to act as a personification of the nation and names...I dunno...heck...LeBron James to the title I'm fine with it...but I would call that progressive.

Please note this thread isn't meant for arguing. If you build questions around those particular argument, these will be answered directly. Thanks!
 
As mentioned earlier, not all traditions should be resurrected. It is a matter of the values associated to them we wish to return. At one point, every aristocrat was turned into such from the position of commoner. Only the greatest act of bravery shown could possibly enabled such recognition. The problem is that such deeds today aren't really recognised anymore at all.
Huh? What sort of aristocracy is actually like that? It is my understanding that aristocracy membership was typically a birthright not something based on desirable personal characteristics.
 
Huh? What sort of aristocracy is actually like that? It is my understanding that aristocracy membership was typically a birthright not something based on desirable personal characteristics.

That is the case in the vast majority. Yet, every aristocratic dynasty ultimately descends from a 'founder' who was not born into it.
 
Isn't this exactly where aristocracy founders, though? Isn't it based on the mistaken idea that bravery, general worth, and even "nobility", are inheritable?
 
Isn't it based on the mistaken idea that bravery, and general worth, are inheritable?

I wouldn't say it is mistaken. Even if the basis is not genetic, an aristocratic upbringing ought to be stressing such values. Though there are cases (such as the Empire of Brazil) where noble titles were unherited.

That said, in Europe, aristocracies were often military in nature. Being member of the aristocracy also implied (more) military duties in exchange for privileges. On the eve of the French revolution, most aristocrats had become socialites and bureaucrats incapable of militarily crushing the revolution. (Yes, I blame in part the aristocracy for allowing 1789.) However, the main blame can be put into Louis XIV who increasingly centralised France and thus rendered the aristocracy impotent. It would have been better if the aristocrats had prevailed in the Fronde rebellions, instead of the French crown.
 
Just to clarify on this - Australia does have a Bill of Rights (Bill of Rights 1688 1 Will & Mary, Sess 2 c 2), and its provisions can still be relevant today (e.g. s 9 provides for parliamentary privilege, though this is also enshrined elsewhere). However, there is no federal constitutional bill of rights, as in the US. Both the ACT and Victoria additionally have statutory bills of rights.

So it does, albeit the 1688 document primary relevance in the present is in relations between parliament and crown, and with regards to judicial procedure rather than personal rights. Afterall we keep a standing army in peacetime and ignore numerous other precepts contained in that document. It doesn't really deal with free speech, and so forth which was the implication of the question, which was why I said Australia does not (federally) have a bill of rights in the sense that the questioner meant.

...However I think you downplay the 'occasional mad Roman emperor'. If I recall my history correctly Europe went through more than one period where mad monarchs were more common than not. Monarchy also lends itself far better to use of the state apparatus for the pursuit of personal vendetta, which should be too petty a thing for a nation to go to war over, in my opinion.

might be ignoring it because while absolute power may not be available, monarchs have frequently held extremely abusable levels of power, and demonstrated it.

As to the first point not really no. Your point runs upon an assertion without validation, while also ignoring as I noted previously that any system of government ultimately is systemic in nature. Either way, your point is a red-herring regardless considering person whims of elected heads of government (what they conceive of as the national interest) constitute basically the entire modus of foreign policy. That whole war of terror in Iraq and Afghanistan for example if we must refer to your objection, was undeniably in all effect a vendetta war (that Taliban didn't attack the US, Al Qaeda did, and Iraq under Saddam had nothing to do with it whatsoever) made in response to the 911 attacks (the grievance which started the vendetta). To say elected leaders are somehow more rational than non-elected ones is illogical, seeing as elected and unelected alike are subject to the same compulsions of human nature, and have the same temptations.

Your second point falls into the same rhetorical trap, in applying the general temptations of power and tendency for tyranny that exists across all of human governance to be somehow uniquely applicable to monarchy. Indeed I would actually say monarchy is more conductive to freedom, considering the ever increasing levels of restrictive laws and government activities that the ostensibly democratic polities of the west continue to impose upon a people who generally despise and distrust their impersonal (as compared to the personal bond between ruler and ruled instantiated in the monarch) and managerial governments.

In this we are back to the value of a figurehead monarch, which I don't dispute. I also have a hard time calling such a system a monarchy though it is, because it is so unlike the traditional authoritarian monarchy. I also wouldn't call such a system 'reactionary' either.

I'm not talking about a figurehead monarch, and even gave specific powers which I think would properly reside within the person of the monarch. Indeed the powers I described are ones which reside in many effective heads of state (as compared to symbolic ones) as a matter of course, such as veto and control over foreign policy, and yet you hardly call them powerless figureheads. A monarch at least in my perspective exists within a systemic and authoritative context, not as some parody of arbitrary despotism which is nothing other than an anachronistic and simplistic ideological imposition with very little to do with how actually monarchy worked, and works. Particularly with regards to the western systems of monarchy.
 
There is no way of putting some genies back in their bottles. If we did change to a monarchy then I'm pretty sure all these reactionaries would backpedal and start their own peasants rebellion the first time some lecherous old gay aristocrat expects you to curry favour with him in the manner that women were expected to do for centuries.

The whole topic is so very stupid because all the monarchists think they'll get what they want when really its what the guy higher up the social pyramid wants.
 
Queries, not polemical rhetorical statements of your own progressive thoughts Senethro. If you have questions ask them, otherwise if you are not asking questions this is not the place to post your own opinion.
 
My question then is "Show me the money". I still don't get what it is you think you get. When the monarchists retreated from the last thread they hadn't suggested means of succession, means of revolution, or even why it would be a good thing. There was a lot of "DEMOCRACY BROKEN, THEREFORE KINGS" but negative arguments are useless without a single positive one.

Why are you so conservative that the Magna Carta is too liberal for you?
 
Why are you so conservative that the Magna Carta is too liberal for you?

The answer is that we aren't necessarily opposed to the Magna Carta. In fact, I have been vocal against too much royal power at the cost of aristocracy, arguing it sowed the seeds for the French revolution. The Magna Carta essentially outlined the privileges of the aristocracy and the king's duties towards it, and was not - as is often parroted by pop-history - a progenitor of democracy or something of the like.
 
The answer is that we aren't necessarily opposed to the Magna Carta. In fact, I have been vocal against too much royal power at the cost of aristocracy, arguing it sowed the seeds for the French revolution. The Magna Carta essentially outlined the privileges of the aristocracy and the king's duties towards it, and was not - as is often parroted by pop-history - a progenitor of democracy or something of the like.

The answer is you don't answer very much at all, except to mention democracy in the same sentence as weasel words like "parrot" and "pop-history".
 
With all due respect, KG, what is the point of this thread? You won't be able to convince anyone to hold your views. They'll just try to convince you, and you aren't willing to budge either. That's why I keep half of my political beliefs to myself.
 
I still don't get what it is you think you get. When the monarchists retreated from the last thread they hadn't suggested means of succession, means of revolution, or even why it would be a good thing. There was a lot of "DEMOCRACY BROKEN, THEREFORE KINGS" but negative arguments are useless without a single positive one.

^ This, 100%.

I would add to 'democracy broken, therefore kings, even though they have been shown to be broken also'. If something doesn't work, go forward and try something else. There's not much point in the uproar of change if you are just changing to something also known to not work.

And since that clearly wasn't a question and I don't really have any other than the ones already asked and not really answered I bid you all a good day.
 
I'm mystified why anyone who isn't part of it already would want to support a self-perpetuating exclusive system based on inherited wealth and privilege.

Why does anyone?
 
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