Ask a Red, Second Edition

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nope!

Sure, but I believe that said incentives provide much more motivation then volunteering.

Maybe it was Fifty. Depends on the person I suppose, but a huge amount of people do a huge amount of work purely to improve their community. When it comes to 'vocations' like science, engineering etc, I think people will always do that work even if it doesn't make you rich. In fact I know that, look how many engineers and scientists there were in the USSR.
 
Maybe it was Fifty. Depends on the person I suppose, but a huge amount of people do a huge amount of work purely to improve their community. When it comes to 'vocations' like science, engineering etc, I think people will always do that work even if it doesn't make you rich. In fact I know that, look how many engineers and scientists there were in the USSR.

Yeah, but the engineers and scientists in the USSR got to work in the nicest gulags.
 
Why do you believe that egalitarianism is a good thing?
Not a "good thing", but a a necessity, a compulsion. There are simply no objective grounds on which to suppose any innate superiority on the part of any one human being (or even, some would argue, any sentient being) over another, whatever personal qualities each may possess. They may be more intelligent, more productive, more able, but simply "better"? We, at least, are sceptical, and seek to over-turn such baseless assertions of superiority, whether explicit or implicit.

Egalitarianism is a fairly widely held value, remember, not unique to Socialists; it is a core principle of Liberalism of all stripes. Where we differ is in our understanding of equality, in our proposed methods of realisation, and, if we are feeling somewhat partisan, in our consistency of principle.

Yeah that's pretty lame. I'd rather just stay in bed.
Tell that to Jonas Salk. ;)
 
Under Communism and/or Socialism, what would happen to stock portfolios?

Civver stated private property to primarily refer to the physical factories and the machines within them, but what about the infrastructure of business - its shares?

Since shares are voting rights/profit rights, would they be taken away to put that wealth in the hands of the workers instead?
 
Under Communism and/or Socialism, what would happen to stock portfolios?

Civver stated private property to primarily refer to the physical factories and the machines within them, but what about the infrastructure of business - its shares?

Since shares are voting rights/profit rights, would they be taken away to put that wealth in the hands of the workers instead?
It is assumed that the companies in which you invested would no longer be privately owned, so your stock would no longer exist in such a form, or that they would have been supplanted by independently founded cooperatives. How the former comes about depends on who you ask, and the time and period you're talking about, but most contemporary Socialists favour the gradual collectivisation of production, and stock-holders would presumably be compensated upon collectivisation. And if its the latter, well, that's just how it goes.
 
Maybe it was Fifty. Depends on the person I suppose, but a huge amount of people do a huge amount of work purely to improve their community. When it comes to 'vocations' like science, engineering etc, I think people will always do that work even if it doesn't make you rich. In fact I know that, look how many engineers and scientists there were in the USSR.
I said entrepreneurs, not engineers and scientists.
 
Not a "good thing", but a a necessity, a compulsion. There are simply no objective grounds on which to suppose any innate superiority on the part of any one human being (or even, some would argue, any sentient being) over another, whatever personal qualities each may possess. They may be more intelligent, more productive, more able, but simply "better"? We, at least, are sceptical, and seek to over-turn such baseless assertions of superiority, whether explicit or implicit.

Egalitarianism is a fairly widely held value, remember, not unique to Socialists; it is a core principle of Liberalism of all stripes. Where we differ is in our understanding of equality, in our proposed methods of realisation, and, if we are feeling somewhat partisan, in our consistency of principle.

You don't need to believe in egalitarianism to reject the idea that anyone is "better" than anyone else (which is different from the epistemic modesty argument that there is no reason to believe that anyone is better than anyone else). From my understanding, socialism/communism incorporates an idea of inherent dessert whereby because people are "equal" they should have equal means. Do you believe this? If so, where does it come from? Why does a lack of inherent differences in value mean that we all ought to have the same means? What is your conception of dessert?
 
You don't need to believe in egalitarianism to reject the idea that anyone is "better" than anyone else (which is different from the epistemic modesty argument that there is no reason to believe that anyone is better than anyone else).
One informs the other. If no-one is objectively superior to any one else, we are all equal, and deserve to be treated as such, hence a commitment to egalitarianism. Ask any Liberal, and even many Conservatives, and they'll agree. It's one of the few points on which almost everyone on this board, barring perhaps a few monarchists, will agree on.

From my understanding, socialism/communism incorporates an idea of inherent dessert whereby because people are "equal" they should have equal means. Do you believe this? If so, where does it come from? Why does a lack of inherent differences in value mean that we all ought to have the same means? What is your conception of dessert?
Socialists regard equality as, first and foremost, equality of opportunity, as do Liberals, the logic being that no one person being innately superior to another denies anyone legitimacy of unearned privilege. We differ from Liberals primarily in our understanding as to what constitutes egalitarian society, and how such a society may be brought about, rather than any fundamental dispute as to the meaning of "equality".
The two most important attitudes towards "dessert" in Socialist thought can be roughly characterised as the "Socialist" and "Communist" ethics, these being "To each according to his ability" and "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", respectively. (In practice, of course, the two often overlap; Democratic Socialists, Syndicalists, Anarcho-Collectivists, etc. generally support the application of the latter in regards to public services like healthcare, while Communists may accept the former in regards to surplus resources.) I don't recall ever seeing a Socialist advocating literal material equality, outside of, perhaps, some religious forms of Communism. Certainly, it wouldn't gel particularly well with most contemporary forms of Socialism, which emphasise the importance of the opportunity for individual self-fulfilment, a necessarily subjective affair, as the ultimate goal.
 
Who determines what is produced in a communist society?

The same people who determine it now: corporate committees.

How consumer goods will be distributed amongst members of society?

Money.

In particular, how worker's salary will be determined and regulated, basing on his skill and performance? Will there be any sort of market regulations for such things?

I believe in legislation limiting the highest and lowest paid wages within a company to X times the other, but otherwise such things would be up to the workers themselves to decide. Its their money, after all.

Does Communism have anything in regards to the unemployed workers?

Employment would exist for all who are willing to work.

Regardless of utility, would you have an abundance of iPhones and Lamborghinis, or would you not?

If there were a sufficient market for it, yet.

The point of this question is that if you don't have abundance, you would have to work out how to allocate limited products, then you'd come to the question of whom we should listen to. This is a real problem, and Leninism was the only practical solution that has ever been proposed by communists. If you do not have an alternative solution, by what logic can you say your version of communism would turn out to be different from the Soviet Union?

I'm not going to waste my time with your leading questions, but I will leave you with the parting thought that perhaps socialists aren't that interested in a formally planned economy.

Indeed. I thank you for taking the time to write this. :)

My pleasure. Teaching is my great joy in life.


A noble idea that I can see working for a community. But how can this be scaled up to a nation?

By the time we reach this point, nations will have ceased to exist. Remember that nations exist to perpetuate the strength of their leaders, and forward their political goals. They exist to represent their peoples therein in the ever-waging battle for scarce resources. But since communism will remove the sources of power accumulation through wealth, and will remove the divisions between man and man over silly things like resource monopolization, and he will instead disperse things equally to those who require it, the needs for the nation as a political entity will dissipate.

So I suppose the transition to Communism will not be done until workers in developing nations demand their rights.

Socialism. Communism is still a long way away after that. Perhaps even centuries from it.

It is important to remember what Lenin said: "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years."

We cannot wait for everyone. But we must wait for mass movements, if we are turning to revolution. If we play by their game and choose democracy, then we must wait for majorities.

I am personally split on the issue. The last thing I want to do is drive the country into civil war, and cause the needless the deaths of lots of people, and all the more to destroy democracy. But if that were the only choice left, then I would take it. We can reform socialism later, even if we cannot bring back the dead. But know that it is not a decision I make readily.

And thus Communism is now associated with authoritarianism, and the social experiment of the Russian Revolution regresses, only going to capitalism nearly a century later.

Indeed. Though I cannot help but wonder if the USSR might have faltered during those vulnerable years without Stalin at the helm. Might Trotsky have too antagonized the West, and forced them into the Fascist camp in a mutual war against socialism? Might Bukharin or Zinoviev have slowed economic development so much that the USSR crumbled under the Nazi invasion? We cannot know.

Why do you believe that egalitarianism is a good thing?

Because I do not want to be among the ones who whomever decides these things deigns to be inferior. Because I have lived the life of one of them, and seen far worse than I have had, but also seen the lives of the affluent and the rich, and seen what so many lack and so few have, and how much better things can be for so many people if only we got rid of this abhorrent idea that some people are better and more entitled than others.
 
Why do we need to fundamentally change the economic order of things?

Could not we simply set some lower level living standards and ensure through social programs that said standards are being met while retaining a mostly capitalist structure?

What would be so terrible about that?
 
How closely would you say you adhere to Marxism? Are there any areas where you gladly deviate from Marx?

Did you miss my previous question or did I do something wrong?
 
I too am curious as to what rewards an individual can gain without breaking the communist system? Truly in a classless society you can't be rewarded with anything, that would cause inequality. Why would anyone strive to be better if everyone already gets the most out of life?
 
Due to the popular support for the return of this thread, as well as the very obvious need for it, the socialists and communists of the forum will once again be answering your questions in the traditional "Ask an X" format.

FAQ



List of posters approve to answer questions:

Cheezy the Wiz
RedRalphWiggum
civver 764
Traitorfish
innonimatu
I'm a Red too!
 
I don't want to nag, but will my questions be answered? Right now I don't know if they're being willingly ignored or if they're simply overlooked...

Spoiler :
Speaking as someone who find the thought of electing police and judges to be quite alien, I have to say that I'm not very comfortable with the idea. When people have to be popular to keep their jobs, they may easily be swayed to act in a way that is popular, but not necessarily just nor right.

Would a communist society lack a bureaucracy to hire and mange police, judges and other civil servants?

The one-man enterprise is as compatible with socialism as capitalism. Larger operations will be expected to be cooperative.
Why?

Hope that isn't to broad a question (I would like to second SS-18's question if so).

If you'd like me to be more specific:
Where does the lines between one-man/small enterprise and large corporation go? My dad started for himself a few years ago, and last year hired a recently graduated new guy to help him. He's been training the new guy and making sure he knows what he's doing, and while the new guy earns really well (my dad isn't very good at being an evil corporate overlord I suppose), my dad still keep the company's profits. Would that be wrong in a communist society? If not, what if my dad hires one more, and yet another one, and so on - when does it become a problem? If it is wrong, then how would you suggest that my dad and the new guy split the profits? Considering that it is my dad that runs the company, and the only reason they actually get contracts is because of my dad's contacts and reputation from his working life so far, and their extreme difference in experience, it would seem quite silly to split the profits fifty-fifty...
Or to put the last question differently:
Well, it seems that when the production of the new product becomes big enough, it will be turned into a cooperative, and the entrepreneur would lose control with the invention itself and the profits.

One could then fear that this process would take away the incentive for an individual to take off his or her leisure time, energy and extra resources to innovate.

I can't seem to remember any reasonable counterargument as to why people would continue to be entrepreneurs instead of just following the path of least resistance and do their job, get a nice payout and spending their free time with their family and friends.
 
With what? The potential for a giant company and millions of dollars?! Hard to top that!
Why should they get that and why should I even want to top that? The product itself does not make the million dollar company, it's the people who make it, market it, etc. There's no reason they shouldn't get a more equitable share of the rewards.

And the guy who made the product in the first place would be rewarded with extra luxuries(or extra currency if that still exists), probably equal to the amount he could've made working somewhere else at the time plus some. The community would love him as well.

Keep in mind we're talking about like .00000001% of the population here..

I sure as hell do. :lol: Certainly plenty of things require good sized teams but a whole lot of products out there are designed by single people or very small groups.
Such as?

I don't think that researchers in general need to be prevented from exploitation, we do pretty well for ourselves, thank you very much.
I don't think you understand what "exploitation" means in a Marxist sense.

Why do you believe that egalitarianism is a good thing?
“If there be a human being who is freer than I, then I shall necessarily become his slave. If I am freer than any other, then he will become my slave. Therefore equality is an absolutely necessary condition of freedom.”

-M. Bakunin

Perfection said:
Could not we simply set some lower level living standards and ensure through social programs that said standards are being met while retaining a mostly capitalist structure?

What would be so terrible about that?
Because the nature of the capitalist relationship is fundamentally wrong. Living conditions in modern social democracies might be acceptable(although certainly not in the third world where western corporations have moved their industrial base to), but should we not try to make society even better?

Plus I question the ability of the state to provide such living standards.

Randomnerd said:
How closely would you say you adhere to Marxism? Are there any areas where you gladly deviate from Marx?
I try not to assign anyone's name to my ideology. Not of the socialist thinkers in the 19th century were perfect, so I take bits and pieces from each(mostly what I like). I definitely think Marx has one of the largest contributions to libertarian socialist theory.

I would say the guy I associate with most would be, to be cliche, Noam Chomsky.

Did you miss my previous question or did I do something wrong?

I don't think people being afraid of their religion being persecuted would be a problem. Or at least, no more of a problem than thinking all socialists secretly want to create a second Stalinist country with themselves on top.

Luckymoose said:
I too am curious as to what rewards an individual can gain without breaking the communist system? Truly in a classless society you can't be rewarded with anything, that would cause inequality. Why would anyone strive to be better if everyone already gets the most out of life?
Classless doesn't mean people get the same pay. That didn't even happen in the USSR.
 
Due to the popular support for the return of this thread, as well as the very obvious need for it, the socialists and communists of the forum will once again be answering your questions in the traditional "Ask an X" format.

Why are you so woefully impaired of the Russian language despite being a Red? ;)

(friendly trolling)
 
By the time we reach this point, nations will have ceased to exist. Remember that nations exist to perpetuate the strength of their leaders, and forward their political goals. They exist to represent their peoples therein in the ever-waging battle for scarce resources. But since communism will remove the sources of power accumulation through wealth, and will remove the divisions between man and man over silly things like resource monopolization, and he will instead disperse things equally to those who require it, the needs for the nation as a political entity will dissipate.
What would be the size of political units then? Local (city-sized, I'd say) communes, or can they band into larger ones? If they can band into larger ones, how would they do decision-making efficiently?

It is important to remember what Lenin said: "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years."

We cannot wait for everyone. But we must wait for mass movements, if we are turning to revolution. If we play by their game and choose democracy, then we must wait for majorities.
Perhaps the chance of the transition spreading to other countries may help with the time issue a bit.

But if that were the only choice left, then I would take it.
Even if it has the chance to do the opposite (i.e. install a more authoritarian and oppressive regime)?

Indeed. Though I cannot help but wonder if the USSR might have faltered during those vulnerable years without Stalin at the helm. Might Trotsky have too antagonized the West, and forced them into the Fascist camp in a mutual war against socialism? Might Bukharin or Zinoviev have slowed economic development so much that the USSR crumbled under the Nazi invasion? We cannot know.
I suppose it may have been too premature to have attempted the transition, considering all these factors.
 
How does this workplace democracy work? The average factory worker (the people that are, by far, the greatest population in our plant) are absolutely incompetent to make any large scale decisions. Direct democracy or proportional representation would be a recipe for failure. The only democratic system I could see having a chance of working would be similar to the US Senate where every department gets a representative regardless of it's size.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom