Ask a Red, Second Edition

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I'm talking about purchasing sandwiches, and the payment to the sandwich maker. Not making them myself. So I have no idea what your post has to do with mine. :confused:

Unless you're saying that in a red society noone will make me sandwiches anymore. :(
Yeah I totally just read the first four words of your post and answered. Sorry lol.

In a communist society you wouldn't "purchase" a sandwich, you would just go to the sandwich store and take one whenever you were hungry. So it's like you make yourself a sandwich when you need it, and on a larger scale society makes itself a sandwich when someone in that society needs it.
 
Do you "believe" in the "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" motto ?
And how are each one abilities and needs going to be measured ?
 
Do you "believe" in the "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" motto ?
I believe that it would be preferable if society were organized on that basis yes.

And how are each one abilities and needs going to be measured ?
Abilities - I assume people would just do whatever they wanted to contribute, within reason(ie. people are going to get pissy if you just sit at home all day making useless gadgets).

Needs - Consumer demand and common sense.
 
Do you think that the only think on which the whole system relies can be common sense ? I mean common sense is not so common ;)

Wont people with higher abilities which have equal demands to those with lower be pissed of because of this ? I.e. I contribute more than X to the society, but we both get the same.
 
Do you think that the only think on which the whole system relies can be common sense ? I mean common sense is not so common ;)
I never said this? I just mentioned common sense because most communities will know that people need food, houses, transportation, etc.

Wont people with higher abilities which have equal demands to those with lower be pissed of because of this ? I.e. I contribute more than X to the society, but we both get the same.
They could probably get away with doing less hours of work or taking more luxury items if this was the case, I don't really see it as being a huge problem. And really, the difference between how much work different professions do aren't that great and don't warrant anything close to the amount of wage disparity we see today.

Also I think its fair to mention that we're talking strictly about communism, which is the end goal. It doesn't turn all perfect and post-commodity as soon as socialization happens. There would still be an exchange system in place for quite awhile I would imagine in most places.
 
A society in which production no longer takes place for the market, but directly for consumption; for use-values, rather than exchange-values. The point being, in this case, that a monopoly doesn't mean very much when you don't have the market mechanics in place to exploit that monopoly.

what are use values and how are they determined?

The subjective utility of any give item or service.

You ever made yourself a sandwich? Like that, but on a grander scale.

Think about how things work right now. You start up a business, you take into account how much money you can make. You consider producing some products (start up a manufacturing business), you take into account how much money you can get for them, that is, what the exchange value is.

In a communist society, there are no more exchange values. Everything is made directly for utility. So, one would start up a business in order to help the community, as an example (this still happens right now, but primarily it's for money).

When you think about making a widget, you don't think "hmm.. how much am I going to get for this if I produce it? How much can I exchange it for?". Instead, you'll be thinking "How many people would like to have this widget? How much would it enrich their lives?".
 
Not to be a broken record, but what the heck is a subjective utility?
How you useful any given individual considers an item or service to be at any given time.

How is determining use values like making a sandwich? :confused:
Taking the various ingredients that constitute a sandwich and putting them together for you to eat is use-value production, in that it is produced for consumption rather than exchange, and that you opt to do it based on weighing up your desires with the opportunity cost of making the sandwich. A communist society would be essentially the same thing, extended to all production.

I don't disagree with that assessment, because reversing the historical tendency towards the centralized accumulation of capital is the very point of distributism, but why isn't that viable, in your opinion?
I suppose that it's hypothetically viable- I don't want to get into any ugly "march of history" stuff- so I suppose it might be better to say that it's not realistically viable. Its an idealist program, in the sense that it doesn't represent the material interests of any class, so I can't see it gaining the popular ground that would allow it to be carried out in a comprehensive manner, especially since the sort of heightened class conflict which usually allows for grand programs of social reformation to emerge tends to push things like distributism even further to the sideline. Social democracy, although suffering from similar idealism, was at least able to act as a mediator between workers and capitalists and thus play a role in class struggle, but distributism means going off at a tangent to it.

Do you "believe" in the "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" motto ?
In the sense that I believe that this is the form communist society must necessarily take, yes, but not as something to be attempted tomorrow, if that's what you're asking.

And how are each one abilities and needs going to be measured ?
Democratic decision making through workers councils, give or take some of the details of organisational form.
 
1) Suppose that in a Communist society I decide to sit at home and play computer games, contributing nothing to society. What will the honest workers, the one who contribute, do with me?

2) Do you think that the situation of workers in the Third World is completely similar to the situation of European workers in the 19th century, or are there factors which would make betterment of their living conditions more difficult?

3) What's the red attitude to the antiglobalist movement?
 
1) Suppose that in a Communist society I decide to sit at home and play computer games, contributing nothing to society. What will the honest workers, the one who contribute, do with me?
That depends. In the earlier stages of communist society, in which distribution is still by necessity correlated with contribution (although to a far more flexible degree than in a system of wage labour, and with a certain universal base level of public services), it would be likely that you would suffer gradual restrictions in your rights of consumption, although I can't say how far that would go. Presumably you wouldn't actually be chased into the woods like an animal, but it's also unlikely that people are going to keep supplying you with electricity that you didn't earn. In a developed capitalism, in which something roughly fulfilling the usual conception of a "post-scarcity" society has been reached, it may be that people are more generous. By then, the distinction between work and leisure will have dissolved- "after labour has become not only a means of life but life's prime want", in Marx's words- then it may just be accepted that you personally find it most fulfilling to sit inside all day and play Civilisation 19. All I can really say is that, in such a society, I don't think that you would actually want to, although, obviously, that's mere speculation.

2) Do you think that the situation of workers in the Third World is completely similar to the situation of European workers in the 19th century, or are there factors which would make betterment of their living conditions more difficult?
I think they will have a harder time achieving compromise with capital as it manifests in their countries, yes, because the globalisation of the economy means that even the extremely limited collective monopoly held by 19th century European workers is far less secure, and so gives them far less leverage. The more authoritarian tendencies of states in that part of the world are also important, as they will make peaceful organisation much more difficult. All this will, I think, force workers in that part of the world towards a greater radicalism, perhaps to the point where proletarian revolution breaks out there before serious social reforms are even attempted. We can talk about China's new middle class all we like, and we can even be as optimistic as to believe that liberal democracy is likely to emerge there, but when social democracy lies in tatters even in its European birthplace, it would be naive to think that it has a serious shot of emerging there.

3) What's the red attitude to the antiglobalist movement?
Broadly supportive, insofar as it represents genuine class struggle, but also sceptical of some. Like early socialism or post-war trade unionism, it contains a certain reactionary streak, a desire to retain the existing order of things, rather than to find a more equitable order of things. The output of its advocates also tends to put undue faith in capitalism as such, and to deal with politics in an idealist rather than materialist manner, a symptom, I would say, of being dominated by middle class activists who tend to be lacking in class conciousness. The segment of the movement sometimes called "alter-globalisation" probably represents the best of it, in that it seems to overcome at least part of this conservatism, although the other problems still exist. Its best representatives are probably those in the "Third World" itself, as they often include working class activists, labour militants, and so forth- take the Argentinian factory-occupation movement, for example- and so are in a far better position to advance class struggle.
 
While we're on the topic of "how do red's feel about things I like" and especially since you seem to be more up on Russian history then me: What are your thoughts on Tolstoyan Movement?
 
What about singers/artists they dont produce anything "material" they make art but should that work be the same as the ore of miner or product of a factory worker.
 
Yeah I totally just read the first four words of your post and answered. Sorry lol.

In a communist society you wouldn't "purchase" a sandwich, you would just go to the sandwich store and take one whenever you were hungry. So it's like you make yourself a sandwich when you need it, and on a larger scale society makes itself a sandwich when someone in that society needs it.

A few questions about this.

1. Some people eat more food than others. One person may want one sandwich, one person may want three. The person who takes three may well be working, but he isn't sacrificing anything for the extra sandwiches, he simply takes them. This could cause a problem for societies' supply. How do you plan to deal with that?

I guess you could ration food, but that doesn't seem consistent with the beliefs of most Reds here.

2. Also, what stops someone from just taking, say, 25 sandwiches, eating one, and storing the others for later? Or is this an acceptable thing to do? (For the record, the reason I see this as a potential problem is that someone could take far more than they'll ever eat. Its not NECESSARILY a problem, but it could be, so I'm curious for thoughts.)

3. Where do fiction writers fit in Communist society, if anywhere?
 
1. Some people eat more food than others. One person may want one sandwich, one person may want three. The person who takes three may well be working, but he isn't sacrificing anything for the extra sandwiches, he simply takes them. This could cause a problem for societies' supply. How do you plan to deal with that?

I guess you could ration food, but that doesn't seem consistent with the beliefs of most Reds here.

2. Also, what stops someone from just taking, say, 25 sandwiches, eating one, and storing the others for later? Or is this an acceptable thing to do? (For the record, the reason I see this as a potential problem is that someone could take far more than they'll ever eat. Its not NECESSARILY a problem, but it could be, so I'm curious for thoughts.)
In a post-commodity, pre-abundance society, consumption would still be limited, it simply wouldn't be limited through market mechanisms. Each individual would be allotted so much "credit", for want of a better word, to redeem as they saw fit. The departure from a process of commodity exchange is that they would not be exchange these money for commodities, with that money continue to circulate as money, but redeeming their credit against goods as the embodiment of a labour process. Rights and costs of distribution would be primarily determined on the basis of labour time, i.e. how much labour a worker contributes to the social product, and how much labour time is embodied in any given service or item, although, because this is a utilitarian measure rather than a basic premise of the economic system, this could be bent when it is deemed preferable (e.g. universal and unconditional provision of healthcare).

In a society of abundance, a post-scarcity society, things would be different, of course, and its entirely possible that we may have free access to material goods, and very probably to mundane goods such as food and so forth. This depends on what a state of "abundance", always a vague term, would actually entail. The most optimistic outlook be a world of Star Trek-like replicators fuelled by a fully sustainable energy source, in which all of us could have basically everything we wanted, while a more ascetic (not to mention less helplessly speculative) vision is simply of a world in which everyone has enough to satisfy their material needs to the extent that they can live a fulfilling life (and some would say that we have, in fact, already have the potential for this, and certainly digital abundance is a given). In the former, then you could have as many sandwiches as you felt like- take a thousand and build a fort, who cares?- while in the latter, "soft" restrictions would still be in place, or at the very least certain expectations of reasonable consumption. Unfortunately, I'm very much not an expert on this particular, often somewhat arcane filed of thought, so any further discussion I could offer would be rather speculative, and probably quite open to having holes poked it in. :dunno:

3. Where do fiction writers fit in Communist society, if anywhere?
They certainly have a place, as do all creators of art, so the question is how their labour will be integrated into the social process of production, and I will grant you that it is a tricky one. Compared to other workers, the subjective utility of what they produce varies very highly from individual producer to individual producer, and it's impossible to say "X many people want music" in the same way that you could say "X many people want bread" (which is a gross oversimplification of how democratic planning would actually work, but you get my drift). Historically, I would image the solution would probably have emerged in the form of what you might call "artists' syndicates", in which creators deal with the council structure as collective entities, but today, with the massive increases in communication technology, I think it would be far more possible for creators to be integrated on an individual basis.
It's also important to remember that under communism we would no longer see a system of wage labour, and so would not necessarily see norms of exclusive employment; it would be entirely feasible for a worker to gradually devote more and more time to creative endeavours as the demand for their output grew, the community gradually relieving them of other duties in recognition of this. You might begin your writing career by simply devoting your spare evenings to it while still putting in your six hours at the widget plant, and then gradually enter into an arrangement where you maybe only work four hours a day, or four days a week, or what have you, and so on and so forth. Unlike capitalism, this would not be a series of gambles taken in pursuit of an uncertain goal, but the development of your individual creative capacities to their fullest, which is, after all, the point. Just because in capitalist society one thing is considered utilitarian and the other a luxury- carpentry on the one, say, and literature on the other- doesn't mean that this will be so in communism society; both will be similarly regarded as a creative endeavour possessing of their own "nobility", for want of a better word, and as productive processes which produce things of utility.
 
so would there be exepmtions for like trivial stuff? Could i give jimmy some credits for some gently used sex toys? Or would that be disallowed. That seems like a market thing.
 
so would there be exepmtions for like trivial stuff? Could i give jimmy some credits for some gently used sex toys? Or would that be disallowed. That seems like a market thing.
Trivial things, perhaps, because exchange does not in itself give rise to commodities, which are unique category. The real key is that credits would not meaningfully circulate, because unless we imagine a huge parallel economy of second-hand goods, these credits would essentially take a single step before terminating in their redemption for fresh goods or services; what you would in effect be doing is not buying them from Jimmy, but allowing Jimmy to forward them to you, the reduced cost reflecting (albeit guesstimated) the embodied labour which has been consumed through use, much as if you gave Jimmy half the credits to pay for a pizza which you then shared. (In fact, you don't even really have to think of it as an "exemption", because that would imply that there are consciously anti-market safeguards in place wile in a developed communist society, at least, the market would have been superseded in such a manner as to make its return a functional impossibility- or so the Marxist theory goes.)
 
So basically i can buy them from jimmy, but only at a government determined price?
Oh, no, at whatever "price" you both determine is a reasonable reflection of the dead labour expended through their previous usage. Aside from anything else, there really wouldn't be a "government", in the conventional sense, to set prices at all.
 
so basically these sorts of exchanges could form a sort of small market economy for second hand consumer goods?
Well, yes and no. There could be widespread informal exchange- particularly for goods of only temporary utility, such as textbooks- but it would not constitute a market in the Marxist understanding, because the exchange is merely of goods, and not of commodities. Production would still be primarily communistic, and this would simply take the form of a bit of informal distribution. There wouldn't really be any mechanism in place for either generating or investing profits. Of course, this may just be me being a pedantic Marxist; it's possible that you could legitimately regard this as a "non-capitalist market". (In fact, you could even go so far as to argue that the presence of this sort of informal extension of distribution would be the sign of a healthy communist society, because it would show that distribution had not become overly mechanical or bureaucratised. :think:)

Also, it's entirely possible that such informal exchanges would eventually give way to some sort of of gift economy, so in a couple of generations it wouldn't really have the potential to form a market whatever theories you adhere to. But that's a bit more speculative.
 
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