Ask a Red, Second Edition

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Did the workers have control over the means of production? Did workers have more power than they have today?

No, in fact, it was the complete opposite. So it can hardly be called communism. As someone has mentioned earlier in this thread, those states were merely in a system of state capitalism.

The workers owned nothing. The state owned everything. The workers decided nothing. The state decided everything.

Basically, "dictatorships are bad". Communism is the most democratic system there is, and it is an aberration to couple it with a totalitarian, genocidal regime.
 
Did the workers have control over the means of production? Did workers have more power than they have today?

No, in fact, it was the complete opposite. So it can hardly be called communism. As someone has mentioned earlier in this thread, those states were merely in a system of state capitalism.

The workers owned nothing. The state owned everything. The workers decided nothing. The state decided everything.

Basically, "dictatorships are bad". Communism is the most democratic system there is, and it is an aberration to couple it with a totalitarian, genocidal regime.

Isn't the lack of private property feature of the communism ?

It's not an abberation, beacuse a totalitarian genocidal regime is the only dimenssion of communism we actually saw. Which country according to you was/is truly communist(as you understand it)? I guess there is/was no such.

I have not read the whole thread(quite a big one) but i guess someone must have mentioned Thomas More.

The workers decided nothing. The state decided everything.
According to Lenin, the intelectual development of the human race had not yet reached the level, where the workers can decide alone, so the government had to decide for them.
 
Isn't the lack of private property feature of the communism ?

It's not an abberation, beacuse a totalitarian genocidal regime is the only dimenssion of communism we actually saw. Which country according to you was/is truly communist(as you understand it)? I guess there is/was no such.

I have not read the whole thread(quite a big one) but i guess someone must have mentioned Thomas More.

The means of production (i.e. industry property) being owned by the workers is a main feature of communism. Not the lack of individual ownership specifically. Property needs to be owned collectively, and that can only happen in a democratic state. Otherwise you're just replacing the capitalist wealth-lords that rule over us, with a totalitarian regime that rules over us.

Are you familiar in the difference between an enthusiast and an actual? For example, a mathematician actually solves mathematical problems and does all the right work. A "math enthusiast" doesn't do any work, but likes math, and may associate himself with mathematicians. In a similar way, Stalin (and related regimes) were "communist enthusiasts". They latched on to how awesome communism is, and forced it down everyone's throats, despite the fact that the only way real communism can arise is from the people themselves.

The Soviet Union was more or less state capitalism. Maybe they called themselves "communist", but if you'll notice, North Korea calls itself "the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea". Dictators like adding words that make the oppressed people feel good.
 
The means of production (i.e. industry property) being owned by the workers is a main feature of communism. Not the lack of individual ownership specifically. Property needs to be owned collectively, and that can only happen in a democratic state. Otherwise you're just replacing the capitalist wealth-lords that rule over us, with a totalitarian regime that rules over us.

Are you familiar in the difference between an enthusiast and an actual? For example, a mathematician actually solves mathematical problems and does all the right work. A "math enthusiast" doesn't do any work, but likes math, and may associate himself with mathematicians. In a similar way, Stalin (and related regimes) were "communist enthusiasts". They latched on to how awesome communism is, and forced it down everyone's throats, despite the fact that the only way real communism can arise is from the people themselves.

The Soviet Union was more or less state capitalism. Maybe they called themselves "communist", but if you'll notice, North Korea calls itself "the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea". Dictators like adding words that make the oppressed people feel good.
It is questianable if the collective ownership is good thing. The past event's proove it is not. As far as i understand you, your idea of communism totaly deny the communist state that existed ?

If some people hear you call Stalin a communist enthusiast, they might have a heart attack :D (just joking, disregard).

And so we come to the question, will the people reach the level of development, when the majority will embrace the idea of communism ? (and this again is of course a statement made by communists, that communism demands higher level of intelectual and social development) and according to other this will never happen, because the ideas of communism contradict with the human nature. But as this is not a discussion thread(as the moderator pointed to me) i will ask you when do you think the people will be ready for communism ? Is anywhere on Earth possible now ? Which country is closest to it according to you ?
 
It is questianable if the collective ownership is good thing. The past event's proove it is not.
Why do you keep equating collective ownership with state ownership even after being corrected? They are not the same thing at all and if you're going to criticize communism stick to what it actually is.

As far as i understand you, your idea of communism totaly deny the communist state that existed ?
They weren't communist states at all and are thus irrelevant to the discussion.

i will ask you when do you think the people will be ready for communism ?
No one can predict the future. It'll probably be a few generations at least as people are still buying into all the anti-communist stigma from the Cold War.
 
Why do you keep equating collective ownership with state ownership even after being corrected? They are not the same thing at all and if you're going to criticize communism stick to what it actually is.

They weren't communist states at all and are thus irrelevant to the discussion.

No one can predict the future. It'll probably be a few generations at least as people are still buying into all the anti-communist stigma from the Cold War.

I have not equated collective ownership with state, so i can't keep doing it.
This do not change the issue that collevtive ownership is necceserely good. Collective ownership leads to lack of resposibilty and lack of initiation unless is totally voluntary, which never happened. So communism is great on theory, with only one weak spot - it had never and it will (i don't say never because never is too irrevelant for the futre) not soon come into beeing. And every failed attempt for building a communist system will be denied from the communst to come after as "not true" communism and not communism at all.



Do you thinkg that a communist society needs a state ?
 
Why does it seem like that? How would a community exploit another?
Well let's say we have a community with some highly valued resource, how can we prevent that community from using that position to achieve unfair status?
 
Well let's say we have a community with some highly valued resource, how can we prevent that community from using that position to achieve unfair status?

The distribution of resources/final-products is determined democratically with input from all the communities. That community with a highly-valued resource within its borders? The highly-valued resource is owned by everyone.

Of course, you run into the problem of disproportionate vote weights, but that's a common theme in democracy.
 
On that topic, I already got your opinion on this, but what do most of you think of Distributism?
It's one of those ideas which is nice on paper, but is basically unrealistic. (Heh, bet a lot of people find some irony in a communist saying that... :lol:) It's essentially reactionary- in the literal, non-pejorative sense- in that it seeks to reverse the historical tendency towards the centralised accumulation of capital, and so really isn't a viable program from a Marxist point of view.

Well let's say we have a community with some highly valued resource, how can we prevent that community from using that position to achieve unfair status?
How would they? Communism is a post-commodity society, they'd have no mechanism by which to actually gain leverage.

It is questianable if the collective ownership is good thing. The past event's proove it is not. As far as i understand you, your idea of communism totaly deny the communist state that existed ?
I don't deny it at all, I just state that it did not represent a non-capitalist social formation. The Marxist conception of capitalism goes beyond legal structures and ideology, important as those may be, and in that framework the Marxist-Leninist states were merely state-capitalist regimes with sturdy social welfare systems.

And so we come to the question, will the people reach the level of development, when the majority will embrace the idea of communism ? (and this again is of course a statement made by communists, that communism demands higher level of intelectual and social development) and according to other this will never happen, because the ideas of communism contradict with the human nature. But as this is not a discussion thread(as the moderator pointed to me) i will ask you when do you think the people will be ready for communism ? Is anywhere on Earth possible now ? Which country is closest to it according to you ?
It's more complex than that. Social revolution emerges out of class struggle, and class struggle bestows a class conciousness, and a awareness by the members of a social class of that social class and its position within society, but that doesn't necessarily mean an acceptance of X theoretical or ideological system. Marx himself discussed the Paris Commune as representing a revolutionary workers' state (setting the exact question of how one defines "state" aside for the moment), and as a political formation which would, had circumstances been more favourable, have naturally concluded in communism, despite the fact that the barest handful of Marxist were represented among the militants and leadership of the Commune. Marxism, properly understood, is not the One True Path To Communism, but a theoretical framework for understanding society and thus obtaining a better understanding of how communism may be built, and building an actual body of praxis upon that. It is useful, but it is neither essential, nor indicative of a greater effectiveness; the Spanish anarchists of the 1936-39 revolutionary period were far in advance of the Trotskyists and Stalinists in that regard, despite taking only from Marx what they felt they needed, because they and their organisations were able to embodied the struggle of the working class in a way which the Spanish Marxists were unable to.
 
How would they? Communism is a post-commodity society, they'd have no mechanism by which to actually gain leverage.
What is a post commodity society?
 
What is a post commodity society?
A society in which production no longer takes place for the market, but directly for consumption; for use-values, rather than exchange-values. The point being, in this case, that a monopoly doesn't mean very much when you don't have the market mechanics in place to exploit that monopoly.
 
Use value is how valuable something is in terms of the use you get out of it, aka utility. And since its not really possible to objectively determine that sort of thing its subjective.
 
Isn't that extraordinarily variable? I mean take a sandwich, let's say i get a sandwich at a time when I'm really super hungry. That sandwich is a godsend. But let's say I get it when i'm only a bit peckish, then the subjective value is much lower. Do we pay the sandwich shop/sandwich maker/Bureau of Sandwiches differently then for the same sammy?
 
Yup its subjective. You get hungry so you determine the use value of a sandwich to be high and therefore input the necessary amount of labor to produce one for yourself. "...to each according to his need."
 
It's one of those ideas which is nice on paper, but is basically unrealistic. (Heh, bet a lot of people find some irony in a communist saying that... :lol:) It's essentially reactionary- in the literal, non-pejorative sense- in that it seeks to reverse the historical tendency towards the centralised accumulation of capital, and so really isn't a viable program from a Marxist point of view.
I don't disagree with that assessment, because reversing the historical tendency towards the centralized accumulation of capital is the very point of distributism, but why isn't that viable, in your opinion?
 
Yup its subjective. You get hungry so you determine the use value of a sandwich to be high and therefore input the necessary amount of labor to produce one for yourself. "...to each according to his need."
I'm talking about purchasing sandwiches, and the payment to the sandwich maker. Not making them myself. So I have no idea what your post has to do with mine. :confused:

Unless you're saying that in a red society noone will make me sandwiches anymore. :(
 
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